Has Federer Ruined Our Perspective on Achievements?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by McEnroeisanartist, Dec 6, 2012.

  1. McEnroeisanartist

    McEnroeisanartist Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    2,211
    I find this lame for some reason. If you need another person to define if you are the GOAT or not, then you are not the GOAT. Federer is GOAT based soley on all of his achievements.
     
  2. tudwell

    tudwell Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2007
    Messages:
    4,408
    If that's laughable, then using Murray to bolster any argument about depth of competition is also laughable.
     
  3. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Agassi would have 14 slams without Sampras. Actually he might have about 18 as his 96-98 slump would have never happened without Sampras beating him at the 95 U.S Open. No player has suffered as much from another player as Agassi did from Sampras.
     
  4. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    9,571
    You find it lame because you're a massive Federer fan. All I'm saying is without Federer the man to beat would be Sampras who Nadal could probably top. I'm not saying it should be something people think about a lot, not something that should keep Nadal or his fans awake thinking "If only Federer hadn't set the bar so high" it's just an interesting idea that people don't give much thought because it is always assumed that Nadal robbed Federer of so much that if he didn't exist then Federer would gain so much, but Nadal would gain a big boost in status without Federer.

    How did you arrive at 14 slams? You mean because Agassi lost 6 times in slams to Sampras? You're assuming every time that Agassi lost to Sampras he would have gone on to win the slam if he didn't play Sampras. That is really flawed logic, especially since not all of the matches he lost were even finals.

    Let's look at each loss.
    US Open 1990, ok Agassi would have probably beaten McEnroe who lost to Sampras in the semis, but Sampras also beat Lendl who would have had a great shot vs Agassi in the final (he beat him at the US Open in 1989 and had won the AO that year) If Lendl makes the final which he probably does, Agassi is the underdog.

    Wimbledon 1993. Agassi lost in the quarters, yet he's a sure bet for the title? (with all those grass greats around ;) ) There's Becker, Courier, and Edberg. Becker lost in a 5th set to Agassi in 1992 but beat him in 4 in 1995. No sure thing for Agassi at all and I maintain he was far from a great grass court player.

    US Open 1995. This one I see Agassi winning, don't think anyone else would have beaten him here.


    Wimbledon 1999. Late in the 90s there wasn't much competition around at Wimbledon and Henman would likely have made the final in which case Agassi wins.

    US Open. 2001. Playing back to back against Safin and Hewitt, who knows? 50/50 chance.

    US Open 2002. Pete had a pretty easy draw so no-one he beat would have really been that dangerous. Roddick was too young, Haas may have beaten Agassi if he got to the final but most likley Agassi wins this one.

    So out of that I say 3 more slams, 4 tops. 12 slams with the full set might put him where Sampras is at the moment.

    Also no player has suffered as much from one other as Agassi from Sampras? Erm Fed and Nadal..
     
  5. Talker

    Talker Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2007
    Messages:
    2,990
    15 slams and 20 finals out of a 25 slam period, six years.

    2003 Wimbledon to 2009 Wimbledon.

    That can alter the perspective some.
     
  6. tacou

    tacou Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7,248
    Only 4 players ever have more major titles than Rafa... one of them is Roger. Federer's slam history is remarkable, no doubt, but things like "consecutive quarterfinals" don't amount to more than trivia. 17 to 11 is fair close considering only 7 players have ever reached double digits
     
  7. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Yes I do believe that.

    Well Agassi beat Becker at this U.S Open, and Becker had beaten Lendl at the previous years. Even if Agassi and Lendl met I think Agassi's chances would be good. Lendl was already on decline, he had won his last ever major already in fact, and Agassi never lost to Lendl again after 1989.

    Becker is Agassi's slave. A better grass court player than Agassi (although at this phase of his career it is closer) but even on grass Agassi is favored due to the matchup. Agassi had beaten Becker at Wimbledon 92, and yes Becker beat him in 95 but that was a HUGE upset and he was boosted by some great tactical advice and motivated by Agassi's former coach Bolliteiri, and the motivation of Becker and Bolliteiri's feud with Agassi at the time, and Agassis arrogance by then towards the matchup. Agassi is easily a better grass courter than Courier, and also was a bad matchup for Edberg who you repeatedly claim was not any good by this point anyway.

    For sure.

    Agassi had never lost to Hewitt up to this point. Only after Hewitt gained the confidence of being #1 and a slam winner did he start beating Agassi. Hewitt majorly lucked out with his draw at this U.S Open, he struggled and could have easily lost to any of Blake, Haas, and Roddick, and would never have gotten past a draw of Rafter and Agassi instead. Safin was not any good in 2001 at all, even though he made the semis here which turned out to be his year highlight, he was still playing at best in neutral gear, Agassi would have had no problems with this Safin.

    Agreed.

    Oh please, even with Nadal, Federer has most people and ALL of his fans claiming he is the GOAT today, what suffering. Agassi goes from a potential top 3 player all time to barely a top 15 player all time due to Sampras.
     
  8. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2008
    Messages:
    15,981
    Location:
    U.S
    oh please, agassi was a nervous wreck in the finals .... lendl would be even more intimidating for him to play against than sampras ... yes, becker beat lendl in 89 USO, but that was becker's best USO performance, he did lose to lendl in 92 @ the USO .....and he wasn't playing as well in 90 as he was in 89 ...

    lendl had already beaten agassi in 89 USO and was 6-0, yes SIX-ZERO vs him at that point ....

    LOL @ the statement in bold, makes it look like agassi beat him plenty of times after 89 .... he just beat him twice, once in 92, once more in 93 ... and lendl in 90 was by some distance better than he was in 92/93 ...

    hell, Jmac in decent form would have more than decent chance to beat the nervous wreck agassi, let alone a lendl who was playing well ( his match vs the in-form sampras was a close 5-setter )


    lol, you cannot be serious ... agassi at this point was having wrist problems and had to alter his service motion .... it was because of sampras having a dip in concentration that he won 2 sets .. he was playing decent tennis, not great tennis

    courier was an inferior grass courter to agassi, but he was in better form by some distance and he owned agassi at that time anyways ...

    agassi playing his very best grass tennis needed 5 sets to defeat a sub-par becker in 92 wimbledon.. becker was in better form in 93 and agassi in worse form

    edberg's form was also just decent ... so agassi would have more of a shot at beating him than the other 2, but still no lock considering he wasn't in great form himself ...

    all of courier/becker/edberg would have a decent shot of defeating agassi at wimbledon in 93 ...
     
  9. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2008
    Messages:
    15,981
    Location:
    U.S
    this is a load of cr*p ...

    very young hewitt beat a returning from hiatus agassi in 98 ...

    their LA match in 99 was a hewitt retirement at 5-4 , which really says nothing

    their IW match in 2001 was a 3-setter, 6-4,3-6,6-4 ... this on slow HC, agassi was better on slow HC than on fast HC and vice versa for hewitt ...

    again, doesn't really say that much tbh ...

    you can't draw many conclusions based on these 3 matches ....

    yes, problem is hewitt struggled in the first week, but by the time the semis and finals came around, he was in brilliant form, trouncing both kafelnikov and sampras

    but then again even agassi was playing very well ... so it would have been a close match


    this I agree with
     
  10. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2012
    Messages:
    5,524
    Location:
    USA
    Except look how tough it was for Roger to win #12 to #17. It gets a lot harder once you're into double digits.
     
  11. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2012
    Messages:
    2,540
    Strongly disagree with this. He handled the atmosphere much better than Roddick in their 5-set QF, and thrashed both Kafelnikov and Sampras (picking Sampras apart when he came to the net, passing him with ease - Hewitt would have done the exact same against Rafter...)

    Actually I consider Hewitt's USO 2001 win to be very impressive.
     
  12. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    25,115
    Location:
    Cwmbran, Wales
    Hewitt was being demonised by the media after the linesman controversy against Blake at the 2001 US Open. But Darren Cahill, Kim Clijsters and his parents all rallied around him, and to end up winning the tournament like he did, was very impressive.
     

Share This Page