Has tennis been missing excitement without Nadal?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by YouCantBeSerious, Feb 16, 2013.

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Do you think there was something missing without Nadal?

  1. Yes, I missed Nadal's fighting spirit and tenacity.

    57.5%
  2. No, tennis is better of without Nadal.

    31.5%
  3. Uh...who is Nadal? And what's that thing you're holding?

    11.0%
  1. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    I wouldn't say it's about getting it right or wrong, it's all about one's perception and taste.

    That said even some posters who generally detest Nadal wished for his comeback after the recent AO final which was hilarious to see :).
     
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  2. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    Truth is, we'll never know how the Fedal rivalry would have gone had they been born at the same time. I think Nadal would have still won the RG match-ups but Federer would have won most of those on grass and hard but this is purely hypothetical. The slowing down of the courts and balls did help Nadal win his CGS IMHO.
     
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  3. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    Here's the deal. A Nadal Murray matchup or Nadal Djoker match up in terms of actual tennis is really not that different than Djoker Murray, lefty dynamic aside.

    The reason why the Djoker Nadal became interesting(which it really wasnt before 2011) was because after 2010, it seemed Federer was past it, and Nadal was poised to finally dominate the game as much if not more than Fed did in his prime. It was thought he would have a legit chance at the slam count because, who could stop him???

    Then all of a sudden, Djoker was there at every final to block Nadal. 7 conseqcutive finals in 2011 where Djoker beat Rafa, 2 on clay. Instead of the crown being firmly ensconsed with Rafa, here comes Djoker the Usurper. Then came 2012 with Nadal restoring his dominance on clay although Djoker defended his turf from Nadal at the AO.

    So that is why Djoker Nadal is exciting *now* because of what happened in 2011. Prior to that Nadal so firmly pwned Djoker that nobody looked forward to their rivalry. But now their rivalry is exciting because of the back and forth nature. However, if Rafa fails to come back to form this year I doubt their rivalry will have much drama there either.

    ETA: The reason the Murray Djoker rivalry is boring is because they have no storyline, no drama.

    With Fed Nadal it was the constrast in styles lefty vs righty, attacker vs grinder defender, the 'gentleman' vs the upstart in capri pants
    the quiet assassin in fed vs "Vamos" Nadal. And of course, the dominant Fed vs the young upstart.


    With Djoker Nadal its: The Heir Apparents vs The Usurper.

    Djoker murray??: __________________________
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
    #53
  4. tacou

    tacou Legend

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    forget his "warrior spirit" and all that junk...4 guys who can win a major > 3 guys who can win a major
     
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  5. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    I agree with your post, and I'll drink to this. :)
     
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  6. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Yes, it's about perception and taste of the individual, zagor. But it's also about the collective mind (taking for example TTW), where there has been a huge polarization between Federer and Nadal as completely different ends of a spectrum. I think this has been harmful generally because it has brought simple ways of thinking, by exalting each player's qualities that fit this simplified model, and suppressing those that didn't.

    The bottom line is that Fed can be a fighter and Nadal can be a shotmaker. Enough of making Fed a puss that tends to cry in public when he loses and Nadal a thug that can barely hold a racket.

    How great would it be to see Nadal and Fed duking it out in the RG final and Fed finally make it seem like he can win against Rafa there? Maybe this will be the year, although I have the feeling it will be Djokovic instead who might win it, along with the Career Grand Slam.
     
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  7. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    If the slowing of the courts helped Nadal, maybe it helped Federer too. The fact is that you might want to call Fed the GOAT, but few people point out that his achievements came in an era of homogeneized surfaces.
     
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  8. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    That's only a part of it. Djoker / Murray will never, ever be as intense as Nadal / Djoker in USO 11 or AO 12.
     
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  9. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    the only reason it was intense was Djoker made it that way by finally beating Nadal in close matches and on clay. Before 2011 there was no rivalry. Djoker with his play gave them a rivalry and a storyline.

    Djoker and Murray have no such storyline to date.
     
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  10. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    Definitely.

    If I have to watch another Djoker-Murray slam final borefest I'm gonna puke
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
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  11. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    I think faster surfaces would harm djoker and nadal more than murray and fed.
     
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  12. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Yes, the storyline is there. All I'm saying is that if you replace Nadal with Murray you simply get a player that can't fight quite as intensely as Nadal. Murray has come a long ways in the fighting and stamina department, but he is still no Nadal.
     
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  13. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    You are oversimplifying. Would benefit Federer if playing against Djoker and Nadal, but how about playing against fast courters? If Wimbledon had been faster, perhaps Roddick might have beaten Fed when he had the chance. How about others like Safin and Nalbandian which also were much better suited for the fast courts? DelPo?

    Overall, I think Fed has benefitted a lot from the slower fast courts (homogeneization of the surfaces), because within the fast courters, he is the best baseliner by far.
     
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  14. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    it remains to be seen if Nadal himself can be Nadal.
     
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  15. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    How could that help him? Everyone knows he likes fast surfaces. If anything it proves how good he is that he was able to win so much on those homogenized surfaces.
     
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  16. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    That is a completely different question though. I think what you are asking is whether he can return to be the way he was before the lay off. Or are you implying that Nadal's legend is based on perception and not facts? If the latter, I dare you to watch USO 11 final.
     
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  17. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    its obvious Im asking if he can return to form as I said in a previous post that if Rafa cant return to his 2010/11 form he wont have much of a rivalry with Djoker/

    I dont even know what you mean by that last bit.
     
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  18. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    No. Slower courts might have benefitted Federer against fast court specialists which are not good baseliners. People like Roddick, Nalbandian, Safin. Probably others that might have knocked him out in the fast courts before the final. He has benefitted and there is no doubt about it. He could have even benefitted more than Nadal. Just he didn't benefit against Nadal, but against other players.
     
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  19. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Just gonna chime in here, but I think the AO 12 final is a much better example of his fighting spirit.

    And I agree that slow courts have helped Federer, but he has won GS on faster surfaces than the ones today. Maybe not 90's fast, but pretty fast nonetheless.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
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  20. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    It's simple. I already explained what I meant. I meant that perhaps you were implying that "Nadal can't be Nadal" because the second use of Nadal refers to a Nadal legend founded on hyperbole and perception.

    Have you never heard the expression "the past isn't what it used to be anymore?" It refers to the romanticizing of the past in a way that is not consistent with how the past actually was.
     
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  21. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Yes, but watch USO 2011 third set. Amazing!

    And yes, Federer has played in faster surfaces. But still way slower than they ware before, which might have also helped him. Then Nadal came along and also benefitted from this in Wimby 2008. When you live by the sword you die by the sword.
     
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  22. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree, but if dying by the sword means 17 GS then I'll take it. :)

    In fact, if Federer lost more to guys like Tsonga or Berdych, or no names likes Rosol, and beat Nadal more because of the faster surfaces, would he then be greater than he is today even if he only had say 13 GS (or even better 14) with a career GS? It would be interesting to see how the Nadal fans would twist that one. :twisted:
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
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  23. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    I think the title of this thread should be: Has tennis been missing excrement without Nadal?
     
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  24. iradical18

    iradical18 Professional

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    I'm certainly no fan of Nadal but rivalry and big names are always good for the sport so I do miss him in that sense. I hate watching him play, it's ugly tennis to me but I can't deny the fire in that guy's belly.
     
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  25. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    I don't understand your point. Nadal hasn't taken too many slams away from Fed outside of RG. Just two, correct? The Wimby 08 and AO 09 slams. So I don't see how 2 slams vs 5 or 6 potentially lost to faster players would be a better deal for Fed.
     
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  26. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    I don't know about tennis, but this thread has benefitted from your presence regarding the level of excrement, maricon. :)
     
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  27. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Sorry but Ferrer is no substitute for Nadal. We need 4 "real" top players in semis and we need Nadal for that. (at least for now when there is no new generation ready to take over, unless Delpo goes up a serious notch in the meantime).
     
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  28. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    Whatever you say Clarky.
     
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  29. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    You need to up your meds, you responded to the wrong person.
     
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  30. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    You're not following the logic of the average Nadal fan. My point is that Nadal fans like to bring up the H2H to discredit Federer in one way or another. Therefore, if Federer was losing in slams to bums like Rosol or guys like Ferrer or Gonzalez and preserving his H2H lead against Nadal because of faster surfaces, would he then be greater even if he only had say 14 GS, plus a career GS (tiebreaker over Sampras)? Or is he better now when he has 17 GS with a career GS and a 10-18 H2H?

    All I'm saying is it would be interesting to see them try to twist their logic even though the 2nd option is clearly the better one, but to Nadal fans H2H is everything.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
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  31. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Yeah, I think Mariecon's meds aren't strong enough. Now she thinks you're me only because you dare to disagree with her. We are not allowed to not love Fed like she does, you know. Lol.
     
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  32. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    I think the H2H in itself is skewed in favor of Nadal because of the fact most matches have been played on clay.

    But... Nadal can handle Fed in all surfaces. It's not like he can't defeat Fed in grass or HC. Indoor HC or carpet would be the only place where I think Fed would be definitely superior to Nadal.

    Nadal is a bad matchup for Fed, although I don't mean this as an excuse really. It's what it is. Anybody who says Nadal is a mug is by extension insulting Fed.
     
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  33. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Maricon is a "she"? OK then. You are a "she" too, ain't you?

    CATFIGHT! :)
     
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  34. Fiji

    Fiji Legend

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    Wimbledon and USO were exciting. AO not so much.
     
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  35. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Very well said sir, if I do say so myself.
     
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  36. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Thank you very much, my friend. I have no beef with you or any other reasonable Fed fan. When you see me take a jab at Federer, it's probably in response to one of the Fed cult members whose love for him have rendered their brains nothing more than a vestigial organ with no purpose. :)
     
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  37. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Thank you very much, my friend. I have no beef with you or any other reasonable Fed fan. When you see me take a jab at Federer, it's probably in response to one of the Fed cult members whose love for him have rendered their brains nothing more than a vestigial organ with no purpose other than to provide some weight upstairs for balance. :)
     
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  38. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    well it's awfully coincidental that since I got here Clarky's been on my case and then when he/she says I'm going on their ignore list, suddenly you start attacking me. So I'm guessing you are one and the same person.
     
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  39. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    That is some airtight logic right there!

    I used to chuckle at Clarky's posts, but after a while her negativity for Nadal is very tiresome. I even doubt she is a true fan.

    If you think everybody that "attacks" you is the same person, then I think you need to run (not walk) to the nearest mental asylum and ask for a complimentary stay in the executive suite. I hear you get a free jacket with Fed's logo on it, and the room itself is conveniently padded, should Nadal win another RG and you go on a noggin cracking rampage agaisnt those poor walls. :)
     
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  40. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Doubt if you must but you're wrong.

    And no, we are not the same person, Mariecon. Drop the paranoia before you're labeled as certifiable.
     
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  41. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    When is the last time you had anything positive to say about Nadal's chances in a slam? RG 09? LOL
     
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  42. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    Funny how you're suddenly having a conversation with each other after I accuse you of being the same person. LOL.
     
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  43. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Nothing positive to say about Nadal's chances anywhere for the last few years.
     
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  44. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    You caught us! I mean... you caught me!

    Clarky, all of the sudden I feel like touching myself. Is that OK with you? :)
     
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  45. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    So even as Nadal won his Career Grand Slam you were this pesimistic?

    I'm really having trouble thinking you are a true fan. And I think I'm not the only one. Are you a Djoker Infiltrator or a Fed Spy?
     
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  46. FormerNadalFan

    FormerNadalFan Rookie

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    You need to calm yourself; I've never been banned from anything, I'm not stealthy about anything and I speak the truth. I did once really pull for Nadal and now I really can't stand him. Truth.
     
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  47. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    What does one have to do to be considered a "true fan"? Enlighten me.


    No I am not a Fed spy or a Djesus infiltrator. I like Fed but I am not a fan of him. As for Djesus, it should be pretty obvious how I feel about him by now, and none of it is good.
     
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  48. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    A true fan is somebody that supports the player. You are always talking negative things about Nadal, and not only about tennis. Recently you said that Nadal was the least intelligent of the Top 4 (which not only is strange for a fan to do, but also based on nothing, as you apparently haven't heard Nadal being interviewed in his native tongue).

    So yeah, I'm not saying you are not a true fan of Nadal. All I'm saying is that if you are a fan you are the weirdest, most disfunctional fan I have ever seen.

    Yeah, I suppose you are not a Djesus - Djoker Kong - ******* - Rolaids fan. I guess that leaves Fed. You are a disguised Fed worshipper on a secret mission.
     
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  49. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    So the pressure of everyday life got to you and you went insane (but conveniently interpret your downfall as an "enlightment" of sorts). Good for you, my good friend.
     
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  50. FormerNadalFan

    FormerNadalFan Rookie

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    Is it really that difficult to understand that my opinion of him changed? My opinion (as I'm aware only matters to me) of Nadal could not have had a larger pendulum swing. I guess you could call it a love/hate relationship - used to love watching the intensity and crazy shot making he brought to tennis, now I hate the sight of him lol. Please know that this has noting to do with the pressure of life and implied mental degradation; this is about tennis and my opinion of a player. I apologize if this causes you anguish and discomfort. If needed, take Ambien; it should help with the sleep disorder caused by my comments. :)
     

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