Head-to-Head: Oscar Wegner & John Yandell

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Mountain Ghost, Jul 11, 2012.

  1. dak95_00

    dak95_00 Professional

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    I suspect they are both pros. I happened across JY at the public library a year or so ago when I borrowed his book Visual Tennis. It has really helped me. I've been a good player w/o fundamentals and his book has connected the dots for me and taught me fundamentals. I'm now using his strokes to teach my children the game. I don't know Oscar or have taken time to read his stuff. I've felt JY's techniques are open to cover many situations and strokes by detailing moments in the strokes where all good players are either the same or similar which makes sense to me as someone w/ a very good golfing background and having seen many, many golf swings that all work but look different.
     
    #51
  2. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Dak,

    Thanks for the great words. Responded to your email as well.
     
    #52
  3. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    I might be a good candidate if you're looking for someone who's
    already played awhile. Before TW I had never heard of JY or Oscar or MTM.
    From what I've seen of MTM, it seems to be more targeted towards
    beginners. I"m curious to see if it can do anything for someone like me
    who is more advanced. For JY, I'm curious to see how he'd apply
    everything he's learned to try and improve my game. I've had my
    serve radared in the low 100's before and I'm curious to see if it would
    be possible to add 10-20 mph? I'm fairly athletic and injury-free.
    How much can technique and training improve my game? I've
    hit with and played several TW posters also.

    Here are the direct links to my videos:
    serve videos:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfFv9ACCdT8&list=PL87F0C85ECE631F82&index=4&feature=plpp_video

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_C-H4G8tV8&list=PL87F0C85ECE631F82&index=3&feature=plpp_video

    FH:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBAhNP7wHiE&list=PL87F0C85ECE631F82&index=15&feature=plpp_video

    BH:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESpm9qdusUA&list=PL87F0C85ECE631F82&index=14&feature=plpp_video

     
    #53
  4. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Oh...thanks alot there, lol.

    Good micro example of how influence can be seen from differently from different perspectives.
    I remember several important fundamental areas we covered before Cheetah stepped up and
    added some excellent follow up info.
    I saw where Limp had a sim response, lol
    Is this the kind of thing that often happens? Sure is.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2012
    #54
  5. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Already whining about fairness before it starts and blaming those who understand Oscar's methods...
    Even though I was the one suggesting we make sure we have a fair candidate...
    not thinking TLM would be fair to JY. Notice how he just ignores where
    we are fair and even handed, preferring to focus on what he finds as bias.
    Can't do enough for some folks.
     
    #55
  6. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    5263:

    No you couldn't do enough. Don't think you have it in you.

    Isn't TLM a pro MTM person? I don't care. He's seemed fair when he and I actually talked tennis. But maybe you are concerned about what he might learn. Is that what you mean by 'can't do enough'? (To cover your ass?)

    Go ahead post another *****y response implicating me or whomever in whatever threat you are feeling...

    That blanked out word starts with a b...
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2012
    #56
  7. Hi I'm Ray

    Hi I'm Ray Hall of Fame

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    Ah geez, another one of these threads
     
    #57
  8. connico

    connico Rookie

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    lol I'm with you, its going to be a slug fest.. better get the popcorn!
     
    #58
  9. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    One Handed,

    The backhand looks pretty good. The TLM suggestion came first so I am on that.

    As I said we do this type of article about every two months, so sure, we can put you in the que. Glad to do it if you are patient. Remind me later--and say which stroke you are most interested in.
     
    #59
  10. anchorage

    anchorage Rookie

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    Just so I'm clear on this; Oscar and John review the videos of Player X & each gives their expert analysis on how that player can improve. Player X then goes away and tries those suggestions & then reports back on what he thinks worked and what didn't.

    Is this, then, meant to be definitive proof that Oscar is "better" than John or the other way around?
     
    #60
  11. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Isn't this basically what happens every time somebody posts a "look at my strokes" vid???

    Besides, surely we can already predict what the advice from either party will be. Those who know the MTM system will know exactly what Oscar will propose as the solution and JY will no doubt say something different or even totally opposite!

    It's no different to doing the same thing with Balla and me, we're both going to spot different things based on what we believe to be important, so I'm really not sure what this is meant to achieve?

    Cheers
     
    #61
  12. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I don't see how a good result for either would be definitive proof, but I
    think the idea was to try to take the differences of these two and put them
    in a more positive and useful context than the usual sniping.
    But of course Jy seems bent on making sure things don't get more positive and
    started whining more about how he can't get a fair shake and concerned about
    format, lol.
     
    #62
  13. anchorage

    anchorage Rookie

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    Yet, 5263, both John & Oscar have proved themselves in the only way which really matters; both, presumably, make a decent living from their tennis-related activities. Enough people are prepared to pay for their input/output so, why do they need the p**sing contest?

    However, if the supposed loser were to admit that he had been wrong all along, repaid his career earnings and switched to golf coaching, well.......
     
    #63
  14. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Or both may realise they are actually saying the same thing.... :eek:
     
    #64
  15. Mountain Ghost

    Mountain Ghost Semi-Pro

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    HEAD-TO-HEAD: Oscar Wegner & John Yandell analyze TLM

    So it looks like we have an agreement from Oscar on John's suggestion for the subject ... TLM!

    John: "Well I'd like to hear it's ok with tlm. If it is I am game..."
    Oscar: "Please post on this thread the video you want me to analyze and I'll send you my viewpoint/viewpoints."

    HERE ARE THE VIDEOS:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el9IyqMZ5yQ&feature=plcp
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poczqrA4_cA&feature=plcp

    Oscar and John will work up their unique viewpoints, send them to me and I will post them at the same time in the "Oscar at Fair" thread. Thank you Oscar and thank you John for your contributions!

    MG
     
    #65
  16. Passion4Tennis

    Passion4Tennis Rookie

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    This should be interesting. Hopefully, there will be a higher level of civility this time around from everyone posting.
     
    #66
  17. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Again, as I have said, the point here is not better or worse, me versus Oscar. The point is to try to help someone on this board.

    I've said I think the choice is fine. I don't know why 5263 is saying that he is concerned that it isn't fair to me.

    I am just responding to MG's suggestion which I think is good but I am less concerned about the "contest." Let people's work speak for itself.
     
    #67
  18. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    It would be interesting to video him after he tried each guys' suggestions/notes, to see which had any effect on his shot and let the gen pop decide which was the best effect. IF you help one guy, you help thousands.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2012
    #68
  19. maverick66

    maverick66 Hall of Fame

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    Problem with that is he might look prettier but be less effective. So really its about results. His wins and losses with the changes implemented. We are gonna have to take TLM's word for that though as I am not cool with asking the guy to post his personal information.
     
    #69
  20. djarvik

    djarvik Rookie

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    :) The answer is in your post.

    Regardless of outcome of these p**sing contest both benefit immensely by
    having their name out there, discussed. In any light. This is marketing, nothing
    less.

    That said, this "contest" so fun! There surely be no winner, it is futile to look
    for one, but it still fun.
     
    #70
  21. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    These guys aren't really comparable - and don't do the same kind of work..

    One guy mostly watches film and then near as I can tell guesses about what is actually happening - and then tells everyone how the pros are hitting. That's fine (if incomplete and sometimes erroneous).

    The other guy isn't as concerned with theory (though he does have some - and its sometimes wrong) but he IS concerned with SAYING the right things to get people to play better tennis.

    If you had to pick someone to give you a lesson it would ABSOLUTELY be Oscar IMHO. Because he knows what to say to get people to play better tennis.

    Do people really swing 'across' the ball - who cares - if that mental cue gets you to hit good forehands its great.. A theory ******* match is a waste of time. It's not theory that gets people playing great tennis.

    The only gripe I have with Oscar is he kinda sorta acts like he is the only pro in the world who can give you good mental cues and improve your game. There are other good coaches out there too..
     
    #71
  22. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Please don't put it in the Oscar-Fair thread. It is already 335 pages long and probably will continue long past that. It will be extremely hard to find the videos and the analyses after a couple of weeks.

    It isn't easy to get to something on page 350 of a 700 page thread on these boards.
     
    #72
  23. AltiusFortius

    AltiusFortius New User

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    Maybe a better idea is to let them play a five setter and see who wins!:)
     
    #73
  24. Mountain Ghost

    Mountain Ghost Semi-Pro

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    LINK to the Spot

    I will edit the OP of THIS thread and insert a LINK to where they are in the "Oscar at Fair" thread.

    MG
     
    #74
  25. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    You should keep the results in this thread. The title is more
    accurate. Putting it in "Oscar at the fair" is
    confusing -- eapecially for newer readers and posters .
    That thread is a bloated mess.
     
    #75
  26. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    I agree. I don't even bother looking at that thread any longer.
     
    #76
  27. Mountain Ghost

    Mountain Ghost Semi-Pro

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    We basically have two agreements: John chose the subject and Oscar agreed ... Oscar chose the location of where to reveal the results and John agreed.

    No one will have to look through "Oscar at Fair" if they don't want to. Easy-to-find LINKS from this thread pointing directly to where the postings actually occur in the "Oscar at Fair" thread will not confuse or inconvenience anyone in the least. Readers coming from "here" will, however, be required to make one extra mouse click to get "there"!

    MG
     
    #77
  28. limitup

    limitup Professional

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    I'm surprised at the amount of disagreement on all this. It's really apples and oranges. Oscar's advice is CLEARLY better for beginners, while 4.0+ players will CLEARLY benefit more from Yandell et al and their detailed and very technical video analysis. I've benefited from both, and can't imagine it any other way. Totally beginners would get practically no benefit from Yandell's site (his books may be different, no idea), while someone who is already a 4.0+ player has little to gain from Oscar's teachings.
     
    #78
  29. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    I think it depends on the "beginners". I think his advice is clearly better for beginners who are skinny, fit, able to execute the violent mechanics, and whose bodies can withstand the torque of the extreme angular forces required.

    It isn't for all beginners, though.
     
    #79
  30. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    limitup,

    I actually agree if you just consider my stuff in the Advanced Tennis section where I am mostly just trying to understand and describe pro motions. There are a bunch of do not try this at home type disclaimers in there too.

    But there are 60 some other coaches writing for us who are using many different approaches some aimed specifically at beginning and lower level players.

    The funny thing is that having devoted myself to the effort of dissecting the pro motions for so long I have quite rightly given some people the impression that this is all I care of about. Or that I think this is the necessary key to playing better tennis.

    Really though if you look at the Your Strokes section there are dozens of examples of applying what I have learned to players at all levels, by looking at video of their strokes, taking pro positions and applying them as I thought appropriate for the game of that player--sometimes this is really basic and sometimes more advanced.

    And having looked at about every tree in the forrest, my next plan is to synthesize a complete approach to teach the basics as simply as possible. Kind of an update of my book which was written before the days of high speed video data bases.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2012
    #80
  31. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    You have it backwards. Results should go here. "Oscar at the fair"
    should have the link back to here. It makes the most
    logical sense. Provide an additional link back
    to Oscar At the fair for those that want to wade thru
    That swamp.
     
    #81
  32. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Who is winning?
     
    #82
  33. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I thought thou art on holiday?
     
    #83
  34. CoachingMastery

    CoachingMastery Professional

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    What is the criteria for determining how one pro's advice is more advantageous to the other's?

    Without some objective evaluation, this is going to be no different--and just as subjective--than the Oscar at the Fair thread.

    And evaluating one player's Internet interpretation of said advice, coupled with the subjective application within an uncontrolled teaching environment, (is the subject working on each technical advice equally with the same intent, the same duration, and the same hitting parameters?), there is virtually no real objective determining factor that can identify a more successful pattern of teaching. (Almost ANY teaching pattern can produce some change and even a level of perceived improvement. Yet, without longterm means and a real objective measurable review, then any results will prove to be strictly subjective in evaluation.)

    And, believe me, there are more variables in play here that I'm not mentioning.

    Perhaps this is understood by all parties and this is just a nice opportunity to mention each other's product. (Hey, I don't have any problem with this as I'm sure I've done this too.)

    And, trust me, there are more ways to teach a player than just these two philosophies.

    Personally, I've learned stuff from both. Know them both. Have spent time with JY and Oscar and have enjoyed their company greatly, in addition to talking tennis at great length. John and I dont' always agree but I think he respects me and I certainly respect him and his contributions and passion for the game. Equally, I respect Oscar and what he has done for tennis. Do I agree with him all the time too? No. Yet, again, I have used some of his concepts that complement my own teaching foundation. He too has a passion for the game and for helping players.

    The argument between the two is based more on historical arguments rather than what is really being specifically taught. (Although, there seems to be a concurrent arguement about racquet head acceleration at the moment.)

    Personally, I like both men and believe both provide thoughtful arguments. Students can try each, (or ignore each and try other technical or training methods), and evaluate if one idea works well or not.

    The one problem with any methodology is that players tend to see if one method works well NOW. From my 35 years teaching, most advanced methods seldom work well NOW...they work when the player becomes first more familiar with the method and then comfortable and then confident. This seldom is a process that from a success/failure evaluation happens early on.

    So even in this so-called 'head to head' teaching race, it will be very difficult to really establish a precedence even as that is the clear goal.

    The only way for any teaching philosophy/methodology to be even remotely objective is to work with a large study group; establish current abilities, desire, dedication, drive, determination, and athleticism; establish a clear teaching program that is measureable, as well as determine what differences exist, what similarities exist, and then determine if the differences were indeed what made a difference between the two groups in not just a measureable period of time but also in the long run.

    If I teach a player and within ten minutes they can rally ten balls in a row...some might consider me a great pro. But, if five years later, the student has not progressed past this level or continue to use rudementary patterns that are associated with simple, unskilled strokes that can be used to 'get a ball over the net' as they did initially, then no, I'm a very poor pro who didn't address the longterm progressions necessary to reach the student's potential or reach any level of skilled play.

    Just some random thoughts here regarding the concept of the OP's subject.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2012
    #84
  35. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Very well said Dave (a much better version of what I was trying to say in post #61!)
     
    #85
  36. CoachingMastery

    CoachingMastery Professional

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    Thanks, Ash. I'm just trying to see where this is really going to go! It really makes little sense and there will be no determining outcome...and, quite frankly, it isn't going to change anyone's thinking much--if at all!

    But it is entertaining!
     
    #86
  37. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    The only way to truly judge the success of a teacher is not through a test, a long-term analysis or anything of the sort. The success is based on the student's own acknowledgement and critique.

    If a student is taught to do something two different ways, they can comment on which way they think is better. They can comment on the demeanor of the teacher and the learning experience. They can comment on things they learned from each teacher.

    The value of any teaching approach cannot be judged in a vacuum. It is combined with the mindset of the teacher, a connection with the student, how the teacher adapts to the student, how the teacher responds to learning adversity, how the teacher responds to learning success.

    And that is how it should be judged. Let the student merely state which learning experience they thought was best and why.

    There is no other measure.
     
    #87
  38. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    My goal is this is just to present some concepts that I think will help TLM. I know what I believe and feel quite confident that I can help most players. But how people react to input and how they incorporate it, well, that's really up to them.

    I think most people on this board can have the same experience. See the practical application and decide whether it appeals and if it does what the results are.
     
    #88
  39. Mountain Ghost

    Mountain Ghost Semi-Pro

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    Head-to-Head

    Hi Dave,

    Thanks for your thoughts. You are right, you are correct and you would obviously be on the winning side of any discussion about there not being an immediately quantifiable “winner” in this process. Perhaps if you could fly a little closer to the ground on this however, you might find that the purpose of this “Head-to-Head” is just a bit more simple than your quite advanced and ambitious process may naturally allow you to notice.

    Simply put … I want to see two powerful tennis “mentors” and publishers of tennis theory look at ONE player who might need adjustments and, without them talking credentials, accomplishments, comparative beliefs, to each other and, most importantly, about each other, observe how they would each uniquely respond to what they see as needing to be corrected. It’s about taking some of the “big talk” from two voices with strong convictions, often somewhat generic and theoretical in nature, and bringing it down to earth. What would they see? What would they respond to and how would they prioritize their corrective response?

    As I was reading your post, what immediately came to the top of my mind is that tennis is one of the few sports where you can engage in a very advanced level of highly-charged sporting action, NOT keep score, and still have an incredibly fulfilling (and even “progressive”) experience. This little exercise is just an extension of that into the teaching realm. No winners … except for maybe the lucky test subject, the two “heads” that get to exercise their powerful wills … and ALL of the observers!

    I wonder how many of those who question the purpose of the “event” won’t want to see what these two tennis innovators come up with on the ground level.

    Come to think of it Dave, you’re another tennis “publisher” that seems to shy away from giving individual corrective advice around here. Love to hear your take on TLM.

    MG
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2012
    #89
  40. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Listen to this guy. Once again the voice of reason. Help one and you help thousands, only if they obtain value. It is up to the individual. We are always in control of how all input affects us.
     
    #90
  41. CoachingMastery

    CoachingMastery Professional

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    I agree that it will be interesting to see the dialogue, advice, and procedures that both provide. It won't be an objective exercise as I mentioned but nonetheless, it will probably prove to be entertaining.

    I don't offer a lot of repetitive advice here as I've provided advice on almost every shot on a number of posts in the past. It is a bit time consuming to try and reissue various comments that I've already done. I shy away from those topics that become abusive or inflamed as I REALLY don't have time for trying to argue with people I know little about and who don't know me. I work more on offering comments on either new topics or on general learning principles that might be beneficial to many rather than strickly offer individual advice since it is what I did for a living for 35 years...and, quite frankly, it is hard to really develop fully contextual advice within such a limited forum that can be clearly understood within the complexity of learning. Too much can be misconstrued, misunderstood, or not fully understood by the player anyway.

    But thank you for asking and I might jump in when I get a chance and share my own thoughts and opinions.
     
    #91
  42. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I think you and Dave are right on with your comments about this, but seems
    many would like to see this regardless; I guess just to see how it goes and
    what each will say. Should be entertaining to an extent and both seem to be
    on board.
     
    #92
  43. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Some comments on video quality for stroke analysis?

    In analyzing the selected videos I hope that there might be a few comments on the video technique, pros & cons. Comments would be useful especially if there were important parts of the stroke that could have been shown in the videos but were missed. This might help others in producing better stroke analysis videos with the available cameras.
     
    #93
  44. PhrygianDominant

    PhrygianDominant Hall of Fame

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    Is it too late to apply? all of my strokes are a work in progress, I am more self taught than anything else, have had very little input from coaches, and I have no bias. I am also in my 20s, of a moderate athletic build and talent, and have the summer off to practice about twice a week.
     
    #94
  45. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    #95
  46. CoachingMastery

    CoachingMastery Professional

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    Don't get me wrong...I think that the advice that is provided from this 'adventure' might be beneficial not just to the student being evaluated and instructed, but by many who will look at their own swing from this perspective and determine possible corrections/stroke components that they too need to work on.

    My lengthy post was just to clearly state an opinion, (objective), that the results of determining whose teaching "strategy" might be the best will be impossible to objectively determine. Too may variables and subjective applications will prohibit a clear "winner" yet I'm sure the results will provide new fodder for everyone following to chime in on and offer interpretations and personal conclusions.

    If for nothing else, it will be good for a few kicks!
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2012
    #96
  47. tommyfr

    tommyfr Rookie

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    Actually I think there are ways to do such a test in a fairly objective, scientific way.

    The focus must be on stroke mechanics in this case, and as tennis is also a lot about fitness, tactics, strategy, mental toughness, we need to design a program that focuses on stroke mechanics and not winning matches.

    This is how to do it: Get a sample of some 20 subjects on different levels and age.. Assess their NTRP as per ITF oncourt assessment system. Let each player (randomized methods) be given the instruction from Coach A or Coach B. Let each coach have for ex 10 instruction sessions with each student, and each student to have 1 homework session in between. All this over a period of lets say 3 weeks.

    After that period each students level is reassessed by the same format, ie the ITF Oncourt assessment. After that compare the changes, improvements for each student and calculate if there is any significant improvements to start with, and then if there are any significant differeces between the coaches.
     
    #97
  48. tommyfr

    tommyfr Rookie

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    The above was of course a bit theoretical and not realistic in this case but in a general sense worthy a study. And as for coaches i would like to see Rick Macci, R Landsdorp , and mr Bollettieri also.

    What an exhibition. then we can have some betting on this also?
     
    #98
  49. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2004
    Messages:
    4,811
    This is the only fair way to do it - IMHO. A video analysis contest just shows who is 'better' at video analysis. You might be able to correctly critque a problem but have no clue how to 'fix' it in the real world.

    Again I don't see how John can participate. Oscar can hit - Yandell can't - isn't this correct? In the real world having a coach who can hit is quite advantageous..Because they understand by doing - AND they don't need to employ hitters.

    If Yandell were to employ a hitter - then that's cheating - because Oscar would go out and get someone better and so forth and so on..
     
    #99
  50. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,404
    Naa, JY can hit a little.
     

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