Head to Heads - Hoad/Laver, Newcombe/Laver, Newcombe/Emerson

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by timnz, Feb 8, 2009.

  1. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Okay great, you're stating point blank that Laver was prompted into speaking an innacurate number. So much for your previous insistence on Laver's honesty and accuracy.

    Now, what's this? You're suggesting that the interviewer did NOT prompt Laver to speak a number but simply added the number himself when he composed the article? I'm getting whiplash trying to follow this.

    Okay, let me indulge this. The interviewer did not bring up numbers at all with Laver, and simply added a number when he composed his article. He depended on incomplete press reports when he had a direct source, the player himself, sitting right in front of him. Never mind how unlikely it is that the reporter would not bring up the H2H, since that was practically the thrust of the whole piece -- how badly Laver was losing to his two rivals. Sportswriters and athletes chew on these numbers all the time. But according to you, they just sat back and chewed the fat and talked in general terms about how Laver sucked.

    And you suggested that Rosewall did not provide Harold Kaese with the H2H, which I guess means that Kaese must have written the number in later, after Rosewall had left the room. You suggest this, even though Rosewall gave Kaese all sorts of detailed information: the match tally in New Zealand, what surfaces were used, how many tickets were bought in Australia, how many big cities were visited. Rosewall even shares the exact time that he left New Zealand -- but you think that Ken just didn't bother mentioning Laver's full H2H record. Ken is obviously keen to present the pros as better than the amateurs, so the topic of Laver's losses is central: yet in your scenario, Ken doesn't bring up the H2H and simply leaves the true number of Laver's defeats at the hands of the pros to be worked out by a newspaper reporter who couldn't even get his staff out to the backwaters where you think so many matches were played. Ken just left that in Kaese's hands, despite having seen for himself (in your scenario) that there were no reporters at half the matches.

    Right.

    And then of course, when Kaese publishes his supposedly incorrect numbers, along with dozens of other newspapers who publish those same numbers (!), neither Rosewall nor Laver nor Hoad nor the tour's promoters and directors bother to correct any publication. We know this because the number 13 doesn't turn up as a h2h between Hoad and Laver until 1997!

    Right.

    Dan, you've got the wrong idea about how reporters got their information. They talked to the tour's directors and promoters, as well as the players. At any one stop on the tour, a reporter who has missed 6 previous matches in other big cities will simply get the running tally from the tour's managers and promoters.

    When we were debating the 1939 tour between Vines and Budge, I even posted a few links to articles in which the tour managers were speaking directly to reporters. In one article they told the reporters exactly how many matches Vines had lost to Budge.

    Obviously the managers of the tour want to tell the press about the running tally. The whole point of this tour, the central aspect of greatest interest, was how well Laver would do against the pros. But in your scenario this is essentially what had to happen: the managers of the tour would say to the press, "You can figure out the H2H for yourselves. We'll talk to you about how many tickets we sell, what cities we're going to, the surfaces we're playing on. But we won't give you the running tally. You can work that out for yourselves. Just send your people out to the little towns where no reporters ever go, where there are no telephones, where the kangaroos outnumber the people (lots of money we'll make there!) The running tally is not something we need to provide to the media (though we know that tennis fans everywhere are interested in what the numbers are). Just work it out among yourselves."

    Right again.
     
  2. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    No, no, no. There are countless instances where we have incomplete information about pro tours in tennis history -- not because the info was NEVER reported, but because the reports have not survived, or because we have not found them yet. There are two Laver/Hoad matches, and one Rosewall/Laver match, not yet documented. That does not mean that the information was never reported back then. We're lucky that we've been able to document so many of the matches.

    You're not even counting correctly. There are three Hoad/Laver matches documented through Jan. 14. There are two more on the 15th and 18th.

    And there's no problem there. Did you notice that in that same time period in which Hoad played Laver 5 times, there were only two Rosewall/Laver matches? No one thinks there is anything suspicious about that, because we're all in agreement about how many matches Rosewall and Laver played.
     
  3. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Anyone would go with the '63 interview.

    Moose, thanks for compiling those. It's so true, memory is very flawed. Not worthless, just very flawed. And these instances you mention don't involve the passing of 34 years. Only ten years ago Pete was in Paris but he can't remember. 15 years ago Borg was at Roland Garros -- the place where he won 6 French Opens -- but he didn't recall it. Gambill can't remember how many times he played Rios, and it hasn't been that long.

    Hoad's 13-0 skunking of Laver is a myth. Hoad did give Laver an 8-0 beating, with some close matches: but over time it was embellished into a myth in which Hoad won 13 matches, all in best-of-five (which even Dan acknowledges is not true), all in straight sets (which again Dan acknowledges as untrue). I've never seen someone so devoted to a myth.
     
  4. Dan Lobb

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    Laver had Alzheimers in 1997? I don't think so.
    Come on, you can remember the big games and matches of your youth, anybody can.
     
  5. Dan Lobb

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    Hey, you cannot remember the big matches and games of your youth? C'mon!
     
  6. Dan Lobb

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    You forget, the accurate H to H for these events could spell financial disaster for the tour, the players, the managers, the promoters. Why else would Kramer accuse Vines of carrying Perry (which I suspect he may have in 1937)? Why did Kramer ask Gonzales to take it easy on Rosewall in 1957?
    The worst thing for the 1963 tour was to have Laver, the new drawing card, shellacked 13 to 0 by a crippled, part-time player who could no longer play a full tour. That would have been, and in fact was, financial poison for everybody.
    Get it?
     
  7. Dan Lobb

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    There is a six-day period (Jan. 18 to 24) with no Hoad/Laver match.
    We know that there were several "warm-up" matches between Hoad and Laver before the tour began.
     
  8. NonP

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    Now krosero, we mustn't forget our good old friend Joe Pike. His devotion was almost superhuman. :)

    But seriously, this guy is almost as bad. What I find really unappetizing, apart from the mendacity and cavalier dismissal of legit counterpoints and arguments, is his faux tone of civility. At least Pike was genuine in that area.

    Unreal.... For the umpteenth time, nobody is saying the memory shouldn't count, only that it can be faulty at times. How hard is this to understand?

    Since you're talking about youth and also seem to dig anecdotes that show only your side of the coin, I'll share one of mine. While in college I once bet a dorm mate on which way the school cafeteria could be seen from my room. Again I'm talking about my school dining hall, a place I frequented nearly every day for dinner. I was SURE I'd win the bet, but I was wrong, it lay in fact the very opposite way.

    And FYI I'm actually known to be able to recall every word of an essay I wrote the previous day nearly entirely from memory. Now you're telling me a guy with good memory like me can get a simple everyday recollection like that wrong, but couldn't possibly misremember the results of a sport activity from even before my college days? Wow, that may well be the first genuine compliment you've given anyone on this board!
     
  9. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    You wrote that, I did not. I respect Laver and wouldn't dare write anything like that about him.

    I didn't realize that you can remember every big match or game in detail that you played in your youth. You must have some fantastic memory.

    How many matches have you played in competition?
     
  10. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Alzheimers is a deadly disease which I don't like joking about -- and it does not take Alzheimers to make a mistake like this! Memory in a healthy person is a lot more faulty than you realize.

    See this is why Moose was spot-on to be comparing this with talk of aliens. This is pure conspiracy theory. And like many conspiracy theories it requires an unrealistic number of people to keep the secret. You think the promoters and directors of the tour "hid away" certain results and all agreed that the number to be shared with the press was 8-0? And you think Rosewall agreed to that number when he was sitting in front of Kaese, for that same reason -- financial concerns? And you think Laver, despite his honesty, played along with a false number that made him look better than he really was, when he sat with the Boston Globe?

    And you think everybody kept that secret until 1997? In all the preceding years, when Bud Collins, a stats guru and a historian who was always talking to these champions and writing histories, made inquiries, everyone remembered to tell Bud, and every other tennis historian who might ask, that Laver only lost 8 matches to Hoad in that tour? Even with the 1963 tour long over and with no one worried about how much money they were going to make? And you think Rosewall and Laver played along with this lie until 1997?

    This is pure fantasy.

    No, we do not know that six days went by without a Hoad/Laver match. Two Hoad/Laver matches have yet to be documented. You can't point to any "gap" in the schedule until those matches are accounted for.

    And even six days without a rematch would not be a problem. There were 6 days between the first Rosewall/Laver match and the second. There were also 6 days between the first Hoad/Laver match and the second. And in this case we can be confident that these 6-day gaps were real. Look at the schedule. Laver met Hoad and Rosewall on the first weekend. The next weekend he met them again, in what were reported as his 3rd and 4th defeats of the tour. They were reported as such in a newspaper that published a detailed schedule of Laver's upcoming matches -- and yet I'm sure you will say that nevertheless, this newspaper must have missed some matches that Laver played between those two weekends. Whatever.

    We don't "know" anything claimed by you if you can't produce the evidence. What I find most tiresome is that we actually do the legwork and provide detailed evidence, exact quotes, full context, and citations. Meanwhile you go about saying, "I heard this," and "I heard that."

    If you want to point to some matches, then provide the evidence.

    What are you talking about anyway? Any matches before the ones in Sydney were not part of the tour because no tickets were sold, no reports were made. What are you talking about, practice matches? Really? You're suggesting that Hoad and Laver played five practice matches before January 5th?

    What happened to your previous contention that Laver was contracted to play 26 matches altogether, 13 apiece against Hoad and Rosewall? You said there were surviving press reports of this -- and of course you never produced those reports.

    So that was your contention before: that the missing matches were all official matches for which Laver was contracted. Real matches for which tickets were sold.

    Now you're going on about "warm-up" matches before the first meetings in Sydney? Now you think the missing matches are there. So what does this mean, you're retracting your former claim that Laver was contracted to play 26 matches? You're accepting the link I provided in which he was contracted to play only 22?

    Everyone knows what Laver said to the press after his first loss to Hoad in Sydney. He said Hoad was the best he had ever faced. The next day after facing Rosewall for the first time he said that that he had thought Hoad was the best, but Rosewall was even better.

    Yet you think that all these guys were playing each other before these matches? You think that Hoad was beating up on Laver before the Sydney match? And that this was never relayed to any media -- for 34 years?

    What a joke you're making out of all this, just for Hoad's glory.

    (Or for trolling.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
  11. NonP

    NonP Professional

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    I don't think he's trolling per se. It's blatantly obvious the guy idolizes Hoad.

    And that's what's really sad about this state of affairs. He could make some valuable contributions to an all-time great of the game who's often ignored altogether, but instead he chooses to follow the playbook from the worst denominator. And he probably doesn't realize he's doing Hoad more harm than good.
     
  12. Dan Lobb

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    You win a big game or match against a tough opponent, and can't remember it? Give me a break.
     
  13. Dan Lobb

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    You keep forgetting, Bucholz supported Laver's memory of the number of matches, and he accompanied the players.
     
  14. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Buchholz said it was 13, presumably all on the tour, although I have not seen any confirmation, in Bodo's article, or from you, that Buchholz restricted the 13 matches to the January tour.

    Laver said he lost his first 14 matches against Hoad -- and since you haven't provided an exact quote of what he said on the video, again, we don't know whether he was restricting those matches to the tour, or what.

    Laver went straight from the Australian tour to the American tour, which kept him so occupied that he did not play a tournament until late March. By then Hoad had long since been injured. Hoad came back in mid-June at Los Angeles, where Laver defeated him. So if Laver lost to Hoad in an extra match after the January tour, it took place in no known tour or tournament.

    What's really uncertain here is when all this business about 13 straight matches began. We know Laver said 14 straight matches in 1997. I don't know the date of Buchholz's statement, though Bodo quotes him in 2007.

    Cas Fish seems to be the person most often quoted when it is claimed that Hoad took 39 straight sets from Laver. Bodo does not state it was 39 straight sets; nor does he quote Buchholz saying so. Did Laver say it was 39 straight sets?

    Fish did, in Tennis Today. I don't know the year, though it was quoted in an article by David Fernandez (“Pancho Gonzalez: Greatest Tennis Player of All Time”), which seems to have been written in 2002.

    This is Fernandez:

    Cas Fish describes the debacle in Tennis Today: "Contracted to play Hoad 13 best-of-five set matches, Laver won the first set of the first match, but was unable to win another. It doesn't take a mathematical genius to work out that this meant that Hoad won 39 consecutive sets from Laver. . . . Hoad at that time had virtually retired from the game, was suffering with a chronically bad back, and had had only three weeks to practice before the match. . . . It rather makes nonsense of Laver's first grand slam."​

    All of this is wrong, despite Fish's apparent certainty. You can also see the language of mythologizing in the piece.

    Who knows how the story started that Hoad beat Laver in 39 straight sets, and 13-14 straight matches. I do think Urban made a reasonable suggestion earlier, about how it may have started. Rosewall and Laver played 13 matches. From there it would have been very easy to remember incorrectly that Hoad and Laver also (must have) played 13.

    Those kind of numbers can be very easily confused, with the passage of enough years. PC1 made the excellent point that these guys played an awful lot of matches over a tremendous number of seasons. Trying to keep all that straight, never confusing similar stats, never confusing seasons that were similar or close in time, would be unusual -- as you can see from Moose's list of how champions have lost recall of even basic facts in their career.
     
  15. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Of course. Laver didn't even know how many tournaments he won in his career until he read about it a few years ago.

    I am truly stunned that Dan Lobb believes that players have computer memories. Even computers make errors. Dan has yet to tell me how many matches he played in competition? What about in 1969 alone?

    I played a competitive match years ago in which I led 3-1 in the third and lost but I don't remember the exact year nor do I remember the exact score in the third and final set. I was extremely upset that I lost so it was important to me. I don't think my memory is bad either.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2012
  16. urban

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    Its indeed an interesting question by whom and when this myth emerged. Obviously, the 13 matches with Rosewall and the 8 losses to Hoad were confused, or another assumption of mine: maybe Laver is right, in stating that he lost 13 matches to Hoad in 1963 (i have 12 or 13 wins for Hoad overall in 1963), but didn't mention his own wins over Hoad in 1963 (i have 7 or so). In the Jack Pollard, Jenny Hoad book on Hoad in 2008, Rod wrote the foreword, and is very, very generous in stating, that he never had a chance of beating Hoad. In the wake of his 38-15 record or so (according to Andrew Tas) this statement seems indeed very generous.
    Fact is, new pro Rocket got clobbered a lot by the twosome of Rosewall and Hoad in January of 1963- and this fact is used by many Gonzalez or Hoad fans, to make a point for their heroes. But they often don't mention, that this was only one month, that Laver had a letdown after his GS and lost to some amateurs in late 1962, and that Gonzalez and Hoad themselves had problems to adjust to the pro tour. Gorgo was 7-50 or so against Kramer in 1950, Hoad directly coming from his his fine Wim win of 1957, was 2-14 against all pros, including losses to very old Dinny Pails. All those early losses were embarassing for the new pros, but those special champions were too good, to remain the sacrified lamb. Within 5 or 6 months, Laver regained his form on the pro tour, and had - in the words of Joe McCauley - one of the best pro roockie seasons ever. Hoad himself wrote about Laver end 1963, that Rocket made great strides as a pro after having 6 month of pro life under his belt. Rosewall told Trabert, who ran the pro tour in 1963 and sent reports to World Tennis, in the summer 1963 at Cannes, that Laver was now playing in devastating form - like Hoad in his best days.
    As Non P has justly written, Hoad (and Gonzalez) are in many ways some of the most underrated champions in tennis history. They don't need exaggeration, they need a solid, profound memory based on reliable stats. No more and no less.
     
  17. pc1

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    I couldn't agree with you more.
     
  18. Dan Lobb

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    Here is another reference.
    In June, 1993, Laver was interviewed by R. Williams in the Independent (available online) and stated that he did not win against Hoad until "more than a dozen matches" had been played between the two players.
    In the 1997 interview, he said " Hoad beat me in 14 straight matches..and this was at a time when he was supposedly no longer interested in tennis"
    Bucholz in 2007 stated "Hoad won all 13 of the matches in that 1963 tour with Laver."
    There is no room for equivocation here, or any confusion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  19. Dan Lobb

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    The point, I think, is that while Laver played well early in his pro career (beating Rosewall in the most important early tour match at Kooyong, televised), he could not get a win in his first 13 (or 14) against Hoad, and even the following year lost a tour of New Zealand by a 3 to 1 margin against Hoad. This was when Hoad was a crippled, beer-happy part-timer!
    These facts caused Bucholz to rate Hoad number one of all time.
     
  20. Dan Lobb

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    The Fish numbers are clearly inaccurate, since Laver not only beat Rosewall at Kooyong in a great televised match, but lost a close five-setter the previous evening to Hoad, and took Hoad to five sets in other matches. Fish did not quote Laver here.
    Laver said in 1997 that "in 1963 when I turned pro, Hoad beat me in 14 straight matches, and this was at a time when he was supposedly no longer interested in tennis."
    In 1993, he said that it took him "more than a dozen" matches against Hoad to get a win.
    Bucholz stated in 2007 that Hoad won all 13 of his matches against Laver on that tour.
    Is there any room for doubt about what is being said here?
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  21. Dan Lobb

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    Thank you.
    Perhaps there were private matches during the January 1963 tour at elite tennis clubs for members and guests, no ticket sales, and thus not reported.
    This could account for the gaps in the record, and a 13 match total, and I think that the Hoad/Laver matchup would be a "hotter" attraction than Laver/Rosewall.
     
  22. Dan Lobb

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    I played competitve tennis sporadically from 1965 to 1970, and was captain of my high school tennis team in 1969-70 in London, Ontario.
    I remember the city high school finals best, where I played doubles against the top provincial teams, losing both years.
    In 1965, I remember well the city championship for 14 year-olds, where I lost to the national champion 6-0, 6-0 in the third round. Twice I reached deuce on my own serve, but then he raised his game and took them. When I made a good shot, he would acknowledge it. I think he dumped a few points to make me feel better. This guy eventually won a tennis scholarship to a Florida university, and was Canadian junior champ more than once. (I believe that his name was Donnie Young, not the current star.)
    At University of Western Ontario, I was intimidated by the two singles players, one of whom soon thereafter thumped Rosewall in an exhibition match in Toronto. (I think that Rosewall was generous to him.) When I saw him clobber his volleys over into another court, I told the coach that I was not in the right league, and walked out. However, this guy had mediocre results in the pro ranks, and became a club pro.
    If you say you cannot remember the big matches of your teen years, I have trouble believing it. (The matches, not necessarily the complete scores.)
    There is a former British tennis pro called Dan Lobb, who is currently a television sports commentator on the BBC, a successful celebrity actor, and rather handsome star. My wife believes that I am handsome, but I am not in his league. He is probably a relative, perhaps fourth or so cousin, since my grandfather came from Cornwall, England, where most Lobbs originate from.
    One of my fourth cousins, descended from Lobbs, was Jayne Mansfield the Hollywood star. My father has completed our family geneology.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  23. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    That is not in Bodo's post. Where did he make that statement?

    That is an exact quote from the author, R. Williams, not from Laver.

    The piece is here: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...es-he-talked-to-richard-williams-1492771.html

    To start with, he didn't win much. It took him two or three months and more than a dozen matches to beat the glamorous Hoad, who had turned pro after beating Rosewall in the 1956 Wimbledon final. "When he was in shape, Hoad was the most difficult. By the time I turned pro, he'd lost the desire to be a day-in, day-out competitor. He'd had a lot of injuries. But he said to himself that I'd won the grand slam, whereas in 1956 he'd won three grand slam tournaments - he'd lost the final of the fourth to Rosewall. To an extent, he was representing the pros. It wasn't exactly a vendetta, but it was a very concentrated effort on his part. And on Rosewall's, too."​
    Williams may have gotten his information from Laver, but if he did, Laver made a few mistakes. It took him much longer than two or three months to beat Hoad; he didn't get his first win over Hoad until June, in Los Angeles. And Hoad certainly did not turn pro after the 1956 Wimbledon.

    You put quotes around "more than a dozen matches", as if Laver stated that directly, but if you want to use quotes like that you should also put the quotes around "two or three months" -- and then you'd have to acknowledge that Laver stated something innacurate, and that his memory is not as crystal clear as you've been making it out to be. It's a mistake. Two or three months after the January tour Hoad was still recovering from a shoulder injury.

    Blah blah, blah blah, blah blah. More guesses, no evidence.

    If you want to talk about "private matches" at "elite tennis clubs", then really we have to take a second look at all the pro tours in tennis history and start looking for such things.

    None of our stats in tennis history can be trusted, if you're going to start guessing that such things took place.

    Whatever kind of matches you're proposing -- whether 'warm up' matches or 'private' matches -- it all comes down to the same thing: the matches were never reported to any media.

    And you still have the report from late December stating that Laver was contracted to play 22 matches. If you're talking about adding 5 'private matches' to the 21 matches we know were played, then this makes even less sense. You're talking about Laver playing in front of "private" audiences for matches that he was not even contracted to play. And why would he -- or Hoad, or Rosewall -- agree to do that?

    I'm not sure what's left to say here. If you want to keep repeating on this board that Hoad took his first 13 matches from Laver, we will note for everybody's sake that you believe only 8 of those matches were official, and that the other 5 must have been 'private' and unreported to the press. We'll also note that you don't even have evidence for that.
     
  24. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I didn't ask about your family history I asked about your matches and it's not exactly all the information I would expect. What were your records? Who did you lose to? Do you remember the important points?

    I don't expect anyone to remember this information however you're writing that everyone should know this.

    I didn't write I that I didn't remember all the important competitive matches in any competition over the years but I don't remember exact details so you better believe it. I remember a percentage of the matches but not nearly all of them. Incidentally I could play blindfold chess which demands a decent memory against several people at the same time in those days but if you ask me to gave every move in those games I couldn't do it. That's not much different than recalling every point in tennis, isn't it?

    Incidentally I saw your cousin Jayne at the Westbury Music Fair years ago. No one noticed if she had a good backhand.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  25. pc1

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    That quote was for Urban not you. That's kind of misleading. You make it sound like I was agreeing with you. I'm agreeing with Urban.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  26. Dan Lobb

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    Sorry, I thought that you might find some humour in the quote.
    No one expects Laver to remember every point of his matches against Hoad, or even the exact scores (I don't know where you get this idea), just the numbers of wins and losses, Simple.
     
  27. Dan Lobb

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    Have you read the Bodo interview? Bucholz states 13 specifically.
     
  28. Dan Lobb

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    Actually, Bodo relates Bucholz' story of the first win by Hoad and adds that " it was the first of 13 CONSECUTIVE wins by Hoad over Laver on that tour".
    Bucholz is quoted as saying, "if there was an Earth vs. Mars match, I would send Hoad to represent the planet".
     
  29. Dan Lobb

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    I remember the most important opponents, not the guys I beat, but the guys who beat me.
    Don Young, the Canadian junior champ, the Ontario doubles champions (whose names elude me at present).
    The player who frightened me off the UWO squad, Ross ___,
    The matches against lesser players, of my own calibre, do not stick in the mind.
     
  30. Dan Lobb

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    I never met Jayne, and only learned of the connection recently. Our common ancestor was John Lobb, who farmed at Port Isaac, Cornwall, and died about 1845(?) John's daughter migrated to USA, and eventually led to Jayne.
     
  31. pc1

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    I've found many cases of players making mistakes in the numbers of wins and losses and considering the huge amount of matches Laver played it's very very possible that errors could be made.
     
  32. urban

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    I bet, if one would ask Laver and Rosewall about a, historically seen, more important topic, their exact overall head to head score, both will and cannot give a precise answer. Nobody can, maybe Robert Geist can give a prelimenary number, he is still counting. Nobody in those early pro years held records, except maybe a father or a sister in law of some players. Maybe Rosewall has all numbers of his bank accounts, he is told to still have the first dollar he earned.
    With this situation of the "lost records", there was room for many errors and myths to emerge. Egomaniacs like Kramer and Gonzalez used all kinds of halfbaked stories to look good and better. If you trust Kramer, then he beat the younger Gorgo like a pulp, if you trust Gonzalez, he held the Indian sign over Kramer. If you trust all stories about Hoad, then the man was a crippled, drunken, non focussed amateur all the time as a pro, who played with a beer bottle in in his hand instead of a Dunlop. I must say, i heavily doubt many of those oral history accounts. Thank God, we have the McCauley book and newer stats by Andrew, Carlo and others, as well as the new old newspaper material on the internet, which is so carefully assembled here by Krosero. So we get a clearer picture.
     
  33. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    The oral histories are interesting but as you wrote they do have a tendency to be somewhat inaccurate. I've read many biographies of some of the greats over the years and a few give the impression they were unbeatable during their primes. I noticed that the ones who have hinted that don't have nearly the records they claim they have and some who don't write that actually have superior records.

    Now bear in mind that the greats do have fine records, that's why they were all time greats.
     
  34. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    You don't strike me as the humorous type although many of your posts do amaze me.

    Incidentally I never heard of a player named Bucholz. Maybe that's why you claim Bucholz said that. He never existed. I have heard of Butch Buchholz.
     
  35. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    This should not be that hard to understand. I didn't ask about the number 13. I said that this statement, which you put in quotes, does not appear in Bodo's article --

    No where does Bodo's article contain this statement. Anyone who wants to check it can do so here: http://blogs.tennis.com/tennisworld/2007/04/miami.html

    I assumed because you put it in quotes that you must have another source in which Buchholz actually made that exact statement -- and I asked for your source. But it looks like your source is just Bodo's article: you've just typed out whatever you think Buchholz said, and put quotes around it.

    Again here you've misused quotes. Bodo did write that, except for the words, "on that tour", which you have nevertheless put in quotes. Nowhere is that specified.

    As far as we know from the actual text of Bodo's article, Buchholz MAY have claimed that all 13 wins took place on the tour; or he may have claimed that Hoad took 6 months to post all 13 victories; or a year; or he may have given no indication at all of how long Hoad took to win 13 matches.

    Of course you have claimed that all 13 wins took place on the tour at the start of 1963, because that's your interpretation of what Buchholz said.

    But it is not right to put that information in quotes, putting it in Buchholz's mouth.
     
  36. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Bodo should have put at least the name of his interview partner right.
     
  37. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    the decade old recollections of honest, humble, and truthful witnesses is absolutely to be viewed as relevant evidence in any court. Attorneys make a pretty easy buck impeaching it. Good lawyers have cruel fun with aging but thoroughly beleived memories just as they can repetitive liars. Its not a cat playing with a trapped mouse, its a cat playing with a wounded trapped mouse.
    Sincerely, the son of a prosecutor and as such, an amateur mouse of many years.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2012
  38. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Have you heard of Earl Bucholz?
     
  39. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    The word CONSECUTIVE is emphasized. Where and how would 13 consecutive wins occur? Only in the 1963 tour.
    The word "consecutive" means "in a row".
    Thirteen wins in a row against Laver is awesome by any standard.
    Laver indicated in 1997 that it was 14, even more awesome.
    Laver stated in 1993 that Hoad in 1963 was still the world number one whenever he concentrated and was in shape. (This statement is in quotes in the Williams interview.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2012
  40. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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  41. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    I don't care where you think the 13 putative wins must have occurred. You plainly don't have a problem putting YOUR own thoughts in quotes and into the mouths of your sources. There is even less reason than there was before to trust anything you type.
     
  42. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    The fact that you are so exercised over this issue indicates that the references I gave you have had an effect.
    Thank you for the compliment.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2012
  43. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I believe the problem is that your so called sources aren't quite good enough.
     
  44. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Spoken like a true conspiracy theorist.

    Self-compliment all you want, Dan.

    (Just be sure to put the quotation marks in the right places when doing so :))
     
  45. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    They appear to be superior to the ones that have been offered in response. Laver's comments from 1997 are taken word for word from his own mouth in an audio recording.
    Is it okay to quote that?
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2012
  46. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    The point is, I consider your responses to be sufficient compliment.
    I have shown my wife the online photos of the more famous Dan Lobb, sexy-looking star of British television, former tennis pro who once defeated Tim Henman (his greatest victory), and she tells me that I am more handsome than him.
    This is the type of compliment I can live with (excuse the pun).
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2012
  47. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Laver's comments from 1997 are taken word for word from an audio recording.
    Is it okay to quote that?
     
  48. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Are you still there? Still in business?
     
  49. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    You're different I'll write that. Can you tell us all how many US Pros there were?

    Sources please. I thought Pancho Gonzalez won seven US Pros in the years between 1952 and 1961. I guess I'll have to remove seven Pro Majors from Gonzalez's resume. He also won in 1961 but that's not in between those years. I guess Lew Hoad may be truly superior to Gonzalez since we took away so many Pro Majors.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2012
  50. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    I am using the USPTA historical website, the official source, which hasn't changed its position since I first read it in the late 1960's in high school.
    "There were some years in which the US Pro was not held, such as the late years of WWII, and the years 1952 to 1961". This is from the officiating body.
    There is no doubt that the US Pro was a major in 1951 and 1963 and after until open tennis.
    The Kramer group was given permission to hold the US Pro in 1959, but held off until 1963. The USPLTA held a US Pro without them in 1962 in D.C.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2012

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