Help me to improve my serve!

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by pvaudio, Mar 29, 2010.

  1. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Hey guys, it's time for another help PV Audio with his serve thread. Last time around was over 6 months ago and as I was learning and improving my new technique, school started again and in this case, 400 level EE courses are a bit more important than fixing my serve. So, for the past months I've been stuck in limbo with a mediocre serve and just last weekend I got around to going out and hitting serves for two hours. I realized that I couldn't go back to the way that I changed it this past summer (up together to racquet drop) and have decided to go back to the up together method, but improve it. It feels decently solid; there are some serves that just feel perfect and theres those that feel good, but simply don't compare to the aforementioned ones. So I'm back again looking for critique of my mechanics to get my pace up and my accuracy back. Note that I do realize I foot fault in just about every video; I only realize that now and it's one of the problems that comes with wearing size 14 Barricades :? :cry: , so I'll make sure to take note that next time. Critique away!

    I've included the prior video for comparison purposes only to show you what I changed. The newest one is first:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXj8RIdlIG0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FbSdunVwvw

    -Dave
     
    #1
  2. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Looking good so far...
    If you want more pace, maybe more sideways prep stance and keep your toss hand higher for longer, to get the archer's bow in your hips.
    Nice swing, good forward movement into court.
    I assume you're around average height. Most guys below 6' adopt a pinpoint style of serving, to get more pace with their shorter wingspans.
    Up to you, platform is more consistent, but slightly less power....great for the big tall guys who have surplus power and lack some control.
     
    #2
  3. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    I remember you telling me last time that my shoulders looked like I was imitating Navratilova because my rear shoulder didn't drop enough :-o

    Has that improved, and if it hasn't, how can I do it? Every time I try to exaggerate it, I end up tossing the ball too far behind me to make it useful. So essentially, if I can get the shoulder drop down (which would make the "bow") how do I get the toss still out in front without literally tossing it out into the court?
     
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  4. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    To be perfectly honest, unless you get to the ball too late with the old motion and make contact too low, I like your old motion better (with the split of the arms). I feel like you get a better rhythm this way. I'm not a fan nor an advocate of both arms go up at the same time.

    Also, as LeeD has already pointed out, you might try coiling your body a bit more, turn a bit more sideways.
     
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  5. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    High hitting shoulder is not a BAD thing, it does take away some power at the expense of consistency. I could use a dose of both, so which should I adopt?
    And I agree with JohnnyS/V. You don't need ONE kind of service motion, as we are all different. Use what produces a maximum speed serve, with replicability.
     
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  6. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Anyone else have any suggestions to offer? Haven't been out to hit again yet :(
     
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  7. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    Hey pvaudio, what kind of pace are you getting on your serves? 105-110?

    Looks like you've switched to an abbreviated service motion. In an abbreviated service, you want to toss the ball without letting your arm drop prior (i.e. no "J toss.")

    Torso is opening up too quickly. Ideally, it should stay closed as you go into the racquet drop. That's usually a sign that forward momentum is not there at some point in your windup. In your case, when your service arm separates, you want to start pushing off the balls of your back foot. .

    The One Foot Drill will take care of this nicely. Put your arms together. Then stand on your back foot and execute your service motion, finishing on the front foot.
     
    #7
  8. spacediver

    spacediver Hall of Fame

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    i'm not really in a position to make confident judgments, as am still learning how to serve, but a couple things I noticed that I think you are failing to do (according to Pat Dougherty's prescriptions at least) are:

    1) not stretching the hip flexors by getting into that limbo position

    2) chest plane should be oriented differently - right now it seems as if you were to draw a line directly out of your chest it would be parallel to the ground, but it should be pointing up at the target.

    Then again, perhaps you are doing these things correctly and my eye is not experienced enough to pick up on them.
     
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  9. cesarmo03

    cesarmo03 Rookie

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    i noticed you are only showing us your first serve, but if you want to win the game you need to show us your second serve, you cant win a match only with power serve.

    try to toss the ball a lighter bit higher it will make you more relaxed and dont have a rush serve, or is that what you want?
     
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  10. charliefedererer

    charliefedererer Legend

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    It appears you have great athleticism and the foundation for a great serve.

    It appears you could improve on two things:

    #1. more of a "bow shape" in your trophy pose, with a raised front shoulder and pushing your front hip forward into the court

    #2. more pronatioin on your serve by hitting with a slightly bent elbow at contact, and finishing with your elbow high

    To achieve #1
    In order to "serve up the mountain" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlPVdppfYGs
    you've got to push that front hip forward as you go into your trophy pose: http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/vid...technique/leading-with-your-hip-when-serving/ (If you don't lead with the hip, there is no way you can coil down and still maintain your balance with a high front shoulder as you go into your trophy pose.)

    To improve #2
    To get more speed on the ball you need a faster and more pronounced pronation motion. That means striking the ball with the elbow slightly bent, and ending with your elbow pointing up and your racquet pointing down. Jim McLellan from tennisone.com explains how to achieve this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpxF4M_bKZ4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bsYFra60Q0&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t6bLABbebc
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmu7ihHI-l8
     
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  11. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    No, actually that's exactly what I DON'T want. The best serves are the ones that feel like is a fluid motion with no wasted energy, while the ones with good feel do feel a bit rushed. You think a higher ball toss would be useful?
     
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  12. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    The fastest I've ever hit was a 124 on a Bushnell handheld gun (which is only accurate for small objects up to 110) this past summer using the old motion. Note that I emphasized that's on a handheld gun, which can have a significant margin for error. The fastest verified speed I've hit was back when I was 16 and in a serving contest at the RCA Championships down in Indy and put up a 111 on their actual sports radar. That's the last time I've ever gotten it clocked since I don't really care that much about numbers so long as it does its purpose.


    So probably somewhere in the middle, but this motion doesn't have the pace of the one in the second video, so I'd say your estimate is correct that at this time, probably about 110.

    Also note that the serve motion when I was 16 was COMPLETELY different and I got a large amount of pace by using my shoulder improperly. As a result, there is so much scar tissue from rotator cuff damage that I can't touch the small of my back with my right hand.

    I will definitely try that out this weekend though, it makes sense!
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2010
    #12
  13. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    My second serve, when the motion is on, is really pretty good if I do say so myself. Maybe my sister will come in here and give her viewpoint from across the net, but it's the same motion, just a topspin with the slightest bit of kick. Improper kick serve motion along with bad shoulder mechanics destroyed my shoulder twice, so I don't use a kick serve anymore unless I'm playing doubles and on the ad side. Otherwise, it's just a full pace topspin serve that is very reliable.
     
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  14. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    For example, at 1:10, I can't look at the screen because it makes me cringe (the lemans23 comment there is also me...if you didn't realize from my videos haha) because that's exactly what ended up destroying my shoulder: over supination of the shoulder joint.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bsYFra60Q0
     
    #14
  15. heretoserve

    heretoserve Rookie

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    Nice to see some one that's actually palm down.

    I would try to focus less on knee bend and more on knee flexion. Players knees bend to assist in coiling the upper body. Turning your shoulders more will allow your elbow to travel further. The most important factor in generating racquet head speed.

    I would also toss a little further out in front. Your pretty stalky so your toss should be out further than most.

    Here's my serve if it helps.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zM5yRBjq1c
     
    #15
  16. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Hahaha it caught me so off guard I made the :shock: face in real life. I was like "what the hell is this possibly going to be-HOLY FU** where'd that come from?"
     
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  17. cesarmo03

    cesarmo03 Rookie

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    you can toss the ball really high and dont need to waste energy or stop the service motion you only need a good timing on how you toss the ball my example is berdych :)
     
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  18. cesarmo03

    cesarmo03 Rookie

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    great videos!!
     
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  19. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    I will have a new video up this evening after looking at some pros' serves. I'll point out what I tried to change. :)
     
    #19
  20. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    If you're used to a quicker rhythm and your service motion is fairly quick I really don't see any reason to adopt a high ball toss. Problems dealing with the wind alone make me glad I don't have a high one. But then again, I live in Oklahoma.
     
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  21. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    [​IMG] sampras motion

    [​IMG] sampras serve oh
    [​IMG] sampras serve sideways

    You have great stick accel. with not the best form. I can see how that's caused shoulder damage, along with the bab stick, too stiff, and probably poly string, which is also bad for the arm.
     
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  22. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    1. I injured my shoulder due to kick serves, not flat serves.

    2. I have only played with Dunlop since I started playing in 5th grade.

    3. When I injured my shoulder I was using either syn gut or NRG2.
     
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  23. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    New video, yay!

    At the advice of Djokovicfan, I decided to implement a rear leg knee bend. It's thrown off my timing and I only had an hour to practice, but it still doesn't look right. It isn't fluid enough at all. What's the problem? I want to have a typical platform server's trophy pose, which I can't get:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol9rrVCPcG8
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2010
    #23
  24. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Seems you have plenty of knee drive, plenty of forward movement at times...but not at other's, you swing hard and fast, your prep position seems fine, you toss is fine.
    Only thing that bothers me is that you used DJ's new unpolished motion as your example. I'd like to think of bending my hitting elbow more, so it can uncoil into the service motion. Also, bending the elbow more serves as a technique for more replicability, more consistency, like a catcher's throwing motion over a pitcher's in baseball. The least consistent is the longthrow for an outfielder. They keep their throwing elbow relatively straight, for distance but not for accuracy.
    Then again, how good (fast) is your serve? Seems lots of the serves have plenty of spin, robbing you of ball speed. Are you short? I think 6' delineates between tall and short for a flat serve in tennis.
     
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  25. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    LIne of the shoulders is not right. Rear foot is way over the center line. Syn gut or nrg2 are soft strings, and dunlop is flexy.
     
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  26. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    I think you should look at the angle of your shoulders compared to the pro pics you posted. They tilt their shoulders upwards towards the sky, while yours are more or less parallel to the net. I think this might be what's throwing your balance off with the leg adjustment, as well as limiting how much you can "hit up" on the ball.

    Perhaps pointing your left arm more straight up would initiate a better shoulder tilt. If you try to point it up without tilting your shoulders, you'll hit your head, more or less.
     
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  27. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    I don't know; the last time I had it legitimately clocked was when I was 16 at 111. I'll be applying for grad school soon so I don't know how accurate that figure is anymore :lol:

    I do like to put a bit of topspin on my first serve to help keep it in and give it some heaviness. I've found that a huge flat serve is great as long as the opponent is nowhere near it. If they are, they just block it right back to you with that same pace. If you add a bit of topspin to it, I've found that I get a far higher percentage of 1st serve points.

    And I am 5'10 and a bit, for reference.

    I'll try to tuck the forearm in a bit more; you're right; it seems as though I'm losing pace unnecessarily
     
    #27
  28. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Okay...then what is not right about it?

    And yes I know all of that; that's exactly why I posted it since you tried to attribute my injury to a Babolat racquet :confused: then stiff strings :confused: when I injured it using a forgiving frame with soft strings.

    Edit: and no, my rear foot isn't far over the center line. Look at the angle that the video was shot. My feet are far apart, but my rear toe is just inside the center line. I know that because I used to be called for "foot faulting" for having my heel in line with the service strip.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2010
    #28
  29. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    On my first post, way back when, I mentioned you slightly open stance on the prep. Now some other guys have also mentioned it. Back should just face opponent to get full rotation.
    I"m also a hair under 5'11", and have been having problems breaking into the higher teens lately. But then, I mostly play once a week, and never practice in between.
     
    #29
  30. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Hmm...maybe that's the missing link. You're right; Federer and especially Henman's hands are pointed straight skyward, mine is pointed directly at where I tossed the ball which is out in front and to the right. I'll try that, and see if that passively pulls down my rear shoulder :)
     
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  31. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    So I should close my shoulders even more? I know you're not saying anything ala McEnroe, but to me, my chest looks parallel to the curtain. But do you think closing it further will help?
     
    #31
  32. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    The knee bend is to load in a coil position with your hip leading into the court and your shoulders to angle to get more coiled power.

    Your knee bend is not loading your coil as it should, you are just using it to jump up and arm the ball. You should feel a stretch on the front of your torso when you load.
     
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  33. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    The left hip has to be out over the baseline, so you can coil backwards, with a bow, and toss arm straight up, so shoulders can get more rotation, and elbow can move a greater distance. Look at the sampras oh shot, and see how he moves forward, with the left hip, and coils the right shoulder towards the net, and faces the thumb towards the back fence, and first supinates the hand, and then pronates it. Also look how low the left shoulder is vs. the right shoulder at the contact pt, and the angle is almost straight up and down, so the shoulders rotate 180 degrees. Your shoulders hardly rotate at all.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2010
    #33
  34. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Hmm, I'll work on this one step at a time. The way that it got completely FUBAR last time was because I tried to change everything at once. I'll try to reach straighter up which I think will force my rear shoulder down as well as naturally cause my left hip to come forward. I think it'll give me a bit more consistent leg drive as well. After that, I'll try what Lee said and try to tuck my forearm in a bit and see if that doesn't help with consistency.

    You guys are invaluable; I need to post a groundstrokes video one of these days so you can take a look at that as well :)
     
    #34
  35. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    There's so much that could be wrong with your serve. But one of simple things ppl forget to do is have good rotation. Toss high enough so you have good reach and hit up to the ball and make sure you don't have a death grip. With all that, you should have decent spin/pace without much effort. Knee bend, balance, pronation and whatever else can come later.
     
    #35
  36. ttbrowne

    ttbrowne Hall of Fame

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    You're leaving your tossing hand up sometimes and then other times it is straight out in front of you. There is no consistancy with the tossing arm.

    Leave it up and then come over. It'll help you with the shoulder problem.

    Cause the thing is your shoulders are not angled up enuf.
     
    #36
  37. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    You still have to toss forward, and keep in mind the small part of the ball you are going to hit and leg drive forward as well, not just up. Look at how far forward the contact point is in the sampras shot.
     
    #37
  38. cesarmo03

    cesarmo03 Rookie

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    that about it.

    this comment is really funny on your first serve video

    ouggnoy your opponent would be fossilized by the time the ball leaves the racket's string bed.

    9 seconds in every serve that is not counting the time you take to pick the ball and returning to the baseline.
     
    #38
  39. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    pvaudio --

    Have to say, your pronation is just beautiful. Kinda ironic given the monster thread about it. :D

    Because you're using an abbreviated service motion, you don't want to use a J-toss. It doesn't coordinate well between the tossing arm and the hitting arm.

    Shoulder is not being loaded very much. It makes me wonder just how much you can put on that puppy once the shoulder is being properly loaded. Again, this goes back to the forward momentum thing. Your momentum needs to be going forward as you start separating the tossing arm from the racquet. The weight transfer is what starts loading the shoulder for power.

    Shadow serve with the One Foot Drill a few times. Prepare your setup position. Stand on just your back foot, weight on the balls of that foot. Then separate your arms and make the tossing motion. You don't even need to execute the service motion in full, just observe what goes on.
     
    #39
  40. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    I shall be going out for another two hours and will have videos once again of the results :)
     
    #40
  41. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    My observations are similar to others that have been posted. You're obviously an athletic guy, but I'd like to see more of an elevation difference between your front and hitting shoulder. I believe allowing the rear shoulder to drop lower will lead to a slightly longer racket path, more drop, and more of a shoulder-over-shoulder motion than you currently have.

    Your videos are good. It's especially helpful to be able to see the serve in slow motion after we've seen it in regular speed.
     
    #41
  42. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    UGH! This is so damn frustrating. I spent two hours on court for serves only and only within the last 15 minutes did I start seeing results. I just cannot make myself keep the rear shoulder down. I now know why it's up and it's because it's my natural reflex after having injured it and I unconsciously shrug my rear shoulder slightly. I only noticed that after the first hour. From there on, I focused on trying tricks to get my rear elbow lower, but it's such slow progress. I'm at the state where I have two choices:

    1. I can continue serving how I normally do and just live with it

    2. I can continue trying to perfect it and swallow my pride for a few practice sessions as serves fly long while trying to force myself to undo something I've been doing for years.

    I'm going with number 2. I can feel that when I get it lined up properly that there is so much energy that I didn't even realize I was wasting that I know it's worth it. I can do all of the components separately, but not in conjunction with one another. The things that I am now implementing are the rear shoulder drop, rear knee bend, and a large shoulder turn which I need in order to get up to the ball since my torso is now lower than before.

    The balls were spraying everywhere, but I was exerting less effort and getting the same pace as I normally do. I just have to consciously make myself start with my elbow tucked in close and try to grab the ceiling and I only started getting serves in with 15 minutes to go, so it'll take a few sessions to get it down.

    I can edit up the videos I took tonight if you guys really want them, but there really isn't anything to see aside from serves flying all over the place instead of all right down the T like before :lol:

    Just let me know if you want to see them, they're mostly me hitting one or two and checking the video to see if I'm doing it properly.
     
    #42
  43. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    If you can't tell by now, I don't tend to blame my equipment or my opponent for my bad playing and don't have pride issues. I was playing next to some guys I usually beat handily and I couldn't care less that my serve looked awful. It will be worth it in the end; I just know it.
     
    #43
  44. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Oh, one final thing that I noticed. After finally managing to get the shoulder down, I realized that for the first time ever, my racquet head finished pointing straight down at the ground after pronation. Normally, it just goes in a straight plane as you can see in my other videos and only on the followthrough does it come down. Just thought that was interesting since that had never happened before. I don't know if it's significant, but it is something I immediately noticed :lol:
     
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  45. Mansewerz

    Mansewerz Legend

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    Don't you mean pronation? I'm not sure, I just thought that since turning in that direction is how to pronate the wrist, it might be the same for the shoulder?

    Where was the pain? I used to have shoulder pain, but not so much this season. Hopefully I don't get any
     
    #45
  46. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Nope, supination. He's rotating his shoulder such that the arm rotates clockwise. Pronation is a counter clockwise motion for the right arm.
     
    #46
  47. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Ah screw it, I'm editing the video now. Note that maybe...2 went in haha.
     
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  48. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Video time. This video is a lot different than all the others. There are no fades or transitions, it just goes from serve to serve. Aside from the first clip, all of the slow motion clips are in the last part of the video.

    Tell me what you think. :)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WeVyK_0nsc
     
    #48
  49. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    Oh, the serve at 3:15 was probably the biggest serve I've hit in over a year. That's what that snap was for at the end of it haha
     
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  50. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    Again, no J-toss with an abbreviated serve. If you want to go with the abbreviated serve motion, you do not want the tossing arm to drop as it separates from the racquet. This can even inhibit your shoulder rotation.

    Have to start loading onto your front foot as soon as you separate the left arm from the racquet.
     
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