Help on String pattern's effect on feel of the strings

Discussion in 'Strings' started by allcourtplayer, Nov 28, 2012.

  1. allcourtplayer

    allcourtplayer New User

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    Hi guys I need some help.
    I had a 95 square inch frame. 18x20 string pattern. Strung up with a hybrid set up
    Gut in the mains with a soft poly in the crosses. Strung at 60/58
    Yes It was the good natural gut from before the bht7.
    That had been my usual set up. Hit like a dream, felt like velvet.
    Then I got a new raquet. The Wilson blx pro staff 95. Same 95 square inch head side. But 16x19 string pattern I strung it up with the guy/ poly as usual. ( the new gut).same tension
    It Feels like a board.
    Yes,I have read about the old , new gut and I understand that could make it feel stiffer. So I will switch to Wilson guy next string job
    But my question is what effect does going from 18x20 to 16x19 have on the feel of the strings if you keep the same tensions?
    Should I be lowering the tension in the 16x19 to get it to feel softer like my other racquet feels ?
    How do I adjust the tension so it feels the same as the 18x20.
    The only difference is the string pattern.
    Any help is appreciated
    Thanks
     
    #1
  2. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    Just because the head size and/or string pattern are the same does not mean two rackets will play exactly alike. One could play like butter and the other like iron depending on the racket stiffness. You need an apples to apples comparison. 18x20 patterns always feel more like a board to me while 16x19 has a little more spring to it.
     
    #2
  3. allcourtplayer

    allcourtplayer New User

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    Thanks for your reply. But I'm not sure what more apples to apples you want
    Same head size. Same strings. Same tension. That's about as apples to apples as I can get. Unless I just got the same exact racquet. Which then I would ht be posting this.

    I'm not trying to get it to " play exactly like the other racquet. ". It plays fine.
    I'm trying to get the strings to feel at least somewhat similar.
    Going to such an open string pattern means having less distance of total string.
    I'm thinking that the shorter distance at the same tension could possibly be causing it to feel so different.
    I would think I'd have to adjust the tension for the difference in the length of string?
     
    #3
  4. cluckcluck

    cluckcluck Hall of Fame

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    16x19 will play completely different than 18x20, no matter the string setup.
    You can try to get close, but finding an identical feel will not happen.
    Let's not forget that different racquet brands will play different too. Wilson, Babolat, Head, Volkl, Donnay, Dunlop, etc all play differently, even the ones with identical specs.
     
    #4
  5. lawrencejin

    lawrencejin Rookie

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    I think your solution is on the right track, but for the wrong reasons. Like Mikeler, I don't think the string pattern is the cause of your string bed feeling boardy. There are many other uncontrolled variables, e.g. racket stiffness, head shape (not all 95's are of the same shape), stringing errors, and so forth.

    In short, you have a few options:
    1. Lower tension, as you mentioned. Many folks here string gut/poly in low- to mid-50's.
    2. Go higher in gauge (thinner strings).

    Good luck!
     
    #5
  6. allcourtplayer

    allcourtplayer New User

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    They are both Wilson racquets.
     
    #6
  7. cluckcluck

    cluckcluck Hall of Fame

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    You're going to have to go with thinner gauges, 17L or 18.
     
    #7
  8. allcourtplayer

    allcourtplayer New User

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    Older racquet stiffness was 59
    The Wilson pro staff says 62.
    Same stringer same stringing machine for the past two years.
    I'll try this suggestions and see what happens plus switching the gut to Wilson.
     
    #8
  9. allcourtplayer

    allcourtplayer New User

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    I can go with different gauges. That's not a problem.
    I was using 16 gauge in the gut and poly.
     
    #9
  10. Muppet

    Muppet Hall of Fame

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    Don't go lower on the Wilson gut. It's the new Babolat gut that gave you most of the problem. They made it stiffer and lower powered to be used in hybrids in the low 50s. From what I've read, Wilson gut is pretty similar to the old VS. Because you have a more open pattern now, you may want to go up on the tension by 2 lbs., or keep it the same as your old VS.
     
    #10
  11. allcourtplayer

    allcourtplayer New User

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    muppet,
    i had read about the new VS gut being stiffer. i didnt realize it was that much stiffer.
    is the wilson that much softer like the old VS?
    I noticed as soon as i hit with it that the string( the new gut) didnt feel the same and i just figured it was because of the string pattern.

    i cant wait to give the wilson gut a shot.
     
    #11
  12. Muppet

    Muppet Hall of Fame

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    I can only tell you about my experience with Tonic 16, and coinciding posts that I've read on TT. My prior experience was with Klip Legend 16 in hybrids. The Klip is supposed to be firmer feeling than other guts (non-BT7), so I was looking forward to using Tonic at 58 (drop weight) in my 95" 12.9 oz. 8.5 HL racquet. I didn't understand the difference in BT7 at the time, so I just went +3 lbs. from my multi tension. That would have been fine with Wilson gut, but it turned out to be very board like and low powered for the BT7 Babolat.

    The news on Wilson and Prince guts is that they are made by Babolat and are similar to Babolat's old gut. The gut that Babolat markets under its own name is the BT7 stuff. One poster reported that he is very happy with BT7 for use in hybrids. Maybe some other people with more experience with these gut strings will post up some more information for you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
    #12
  13. vic9

    vic9 New User

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    Doesn't sound like apples to apples if both the string pattern and the stiffness are different What's the exact model of your old racquet? I didn't know Wilson had something with those specs.
     
    #13
  14. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    For the same strings my rule of thumb would be to raise the tension 10% between an 18x20 pattern and a 16x19 pattern to get the same feel. It seems like your case doesn't fit with this rule.
    Probably some of the difference is due to the strings and some is due to the racket. Could also be some quality control in the stringing.
    In all, I'd be wary of both going back to the old strings and at the same time lowering string tension.
     
    #14
  15. Matchball

    Matchball Semi-Pro

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    I assume stringer and stringing machine/method are the same right?

    1. Try to put strings of thicker gauge on the less dense pattern and take it from there.

    It is difficult to replicate the feeling for sure, but I guess this is the objective.

    2. Once you are convinced (if you are convinced) that the thicker gauge works (do not jump to the conclusion that it will definitely make the racquet feel even more boardy - in fact, as other have mentioned, this might be caused by many parameters), experiment with slight differences in tension (close to your previous benchmark tension), but do increase the mains/crosses margin (say 3 pounds instead of 2 for starters).
    This will help you sweeten/open the stringbed, increase pocketing and dwell time.

    3. If you like the effect of this on the new racquet, you might want to walk that extra mile and experiment with an even softer co-poly for crosses, or with a spin friendly synthetic gut, before you do sth. extreme (and wrong) with the mains/crosses margin; 5 to 6 pounds is the maximum allowed difference, but it would be wise to factor in tension loss for different strings IMO and it gets complicated. I would never go further than 4 pounds.

    3. Also I would really like to know what the previous (the 18x20) stick was and if how old it is.

    * There are ways to make a new frame feel older (softer).
    Nadal asks for that on his Aeropros sometimes. It is a procedure that involves a certain stringing process.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2012
    #15
  16. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    I use the same racquets for this very reason. I don't want to pick up a different racquet from my bag and have to adjust my game because its drastically different from my last one. I want to be able to pick up any racquet from my bag and play exactly the same way.

    I say pick a racquet and stick with it. If you liked 18x20, stick with 18x20.
     
    #16
  17. allcourtplayer

    allcourtplayer New User

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    my old racquet is the wilson k factor 6.1 team :

    Midplus Specs
    Head Size:
    95 sq. in. / 613 sq. cm.
    Length: 27 inches / 69 cm
    Strung Weight: 10.9oz / 309g
    Balance: Even Balance
    Swingweight: 325
    Stiffness: 59
    Beam Width: 21 mm Straight Beam
    Composition: nCoded High Modulus Graphite / Carbon Black
    Power Level: Low-Medium
    Swing Speed: Moderate-Fast
    Grip Type: Wilson TrueGrip
    String Pattern:
    18 Mains / 20 Crosses
    Mains skip: 8T,10T,8H,10H
    One Piece
    No shared holes
    String Tension: 50-60 pounds
     
    #17
  18. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Older racket when new was 59. What is it now.
    New racket is 62, but what is it with Wilson's quality control?
    More strings need SOFTER tension, to feel the same.
    Less strings need stiffer tension, to feel the same.
     
    #18
  19. allcourtplayer

    allcourtplayer New User

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    so leed you saying i need to increase the tension more than what i was at before which was 60 on the mains(gut) and 58 on the crosses?
     
    #19
  20. vic9

    vic9 New User

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    Okay, so it is a totally different racquet. Everyone is confirming with you to go with your original thought and reduce the tension.

    Going from 18X20 to 16X19 makes a racquet less boardy. But others are trying to tell you that you didn't just change this one variable ...compare the specs you listed.

    How are you liking your new racquet in terms of stiffness, swingweight, balance or position of the sweetspot? Having it more stiff, less plowthrough, more head light, or missing the sweetspot can make a racquet feel more boardy too. You could try playing around with some lead tape to see if that helps.
     
    #20
  21. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Small differences in a rackets weight, weight distribution, stiffness, stiffness distribution ao can make it feel very different. Even the same model, because of qc. Perhaps you could make the new racket feel less boardy by adding a bit of weight at 12, at the top of the grip, or on/in the butt.
    If for instance the new racket is lighter and more head heavy than the old, you could add a few grams of weight at the butt, in my experience you would get a softer feel...
     
    #21
  22. MikeHitsHard93

    MikeHitsHard93 Hall of Fame

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    Want less boardy? Go with lower tensions no matter what string pattern you have. It's that simple. The difference between 59 ra and 62 ra can be big. Your old racket also might flex in different areas than your new one. Just because its the same brand it doesn't mean they are almost the same racket.
     
    #22
  23. TimothyO

    TimothyO Hall of Fame

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    Paper specs only take you so far. On paper the Pro Staff looked perfect me, especially the relatively low flex.

    But the PS 95 includes Wilsons Ampli Feel tech. Inside the handle you'll find two metal shanks. The sheered off edges will be visible when you remove the cap. You may need to shove some foam aside to see the metal.

    I sold my PS 95 when I began to wake up mornings with a stiff hand after hitting with it. It was so bad I couldn't close my hand and it was VERY painful.

    I was very dissapointed as I loved the PS 95's spin, control, and precision. But that stupid Ampli Shock tech is bad for arm health imo.

    Remember, increasing ball feel with stiff materials in the handle such as basalt and metal is the OPPOSITE of everything done with other techs/materials REDUCE shock and vibration (eg Wilson's excellent Shock Shield gel grip). Ampli Shock is a terrible mistake.
     
    #23
  24. TimothyO

    TimothyO Hall of Fame

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    Mike is correct: flex CAN'T tell the whole story since it's measured primarily at the throat.

    A "flexy" frame can play stiff and boardy based on materials and thickness of the hoop.

    A "stiff" frame might be comfortable due to materials and a thinner head/beam.

    Placement of lead tape cn also mod a frame's comfort for better or worse.
     
    #24
  25. Muppet

    Muppet Hall of Fame

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    I would ignore any results you had with the BT7 string and start from how the old VS was in your 18x20. Because your new racquet is more open, go up in tension anywhere from 2 to 5 lbs. From what other posters have said, Wilson gut is a very soft string.
     
    #25

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