"He's the greatest but I'm the best "

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by The Dark Knight, Jun 11, 2013.

  1. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Rafael Nadal revives greatest-ever debate, without looking to the future

    "He's the greatest, I'm the best."

    That's how Sports Illustrated famously paraphrased Leon Spinks' attitude after the boxer defeated the aging Muhammad Ali for the heavyweight crown in 1978. For years now, Rafael Nadal has been saying variations of the same thing when asked how he stacks up against Roger Federer. The congenitally humble Spaniard was at it again Sunday after securing the French Open trophy for an eighth time.

    "Winning 17 Grand Slam titles, that's miles away," Nadal said of the current all-time record, held by Federer. "I'm not even thinking about it."

    Maybe he really isn't thinking about it, so someone should tell him it's not miles away. Nadal now has 12 major championships, moving him past Rod Laver and Bjorn Borg. Considering that he's just 27, another half-dozen majors isn't an unrealistic goal.

    Just a few months ago, we all thought that Rafael Nadal would never be the same again. He had missed the last two majors of 2012 due to severe, chronic knee problems. Then, his rehab proving frustratingly slow, he bailed out of the season-opening Australian Open.

    Has there ever been a champion who's missed three major tournaments in a row -- for any reason, let alone because of a major injury -- and come back to reach his former level?

    After winning the Grand Slam in 1969, Laver missed the next two majors -- and never won another. John McEnroe skipped three straight majors in 1986 -- and then couldn't reach another Slam final.

    The only somewhat comparable comeback success story is Thomas Muster's. The Austrian missed three straight majors after being hit by a car in 1989.

    But it was six years after his accident when he won his one and only major title, at the 1995 French Open. And while Muster's comeback is indeed impressive -- he won 40 consecutive clay-court matches in that magical '95 season -- his career accomplishments are paltry compared to Nadal's.

    With his latest win on Roland Garros' clay courts, Nadal still might be a ways from Federer's all-time Grand Slam record, but he's already close to uncharted territory. Until now, no man had ever won the trophy eight times at one major. Martina Navratilova won nine Wimbledon titles, but Rafa's dominance on clay unarguably has been greater than Martina's on grass.

    Needless to say, there are asterisks to be applied, thanks to that troublesome amateur/professional divide that hobbled the sport before 1968. How many Wimbledons would Laver have won if he'd been allowed to play the tournament from 1963 to 1967, when he was in his prime? How many U.S. championships would Pancho Gonzales have won if he hadn't turned pro after winning his second title in 1949? (He was able to reach the quarterfinals at Forest Hills in 1968, when he was 41.)

    But even putting all of that aside, Nadal's career stands astride history. He isn't just a clay-court-grinding machine. He has won on every surface, beaten all comers. He bested Federer on Wimbledon's grass in 2008, when Roger was still at the height of his powers, and then beat him again six months later on the Australian Open's hard courts.

    Since returning from his long layoff in February, Nadal has won seven of nine tournaments, including Masters events in Indian Wells, Madrid and Rome. "For me, it's incredible," said Toni Nadal, Rafa's uncle and coach. "When I think of all that Rafael has done, I don't understand it."

    Even if you're not related to Rafa, those words are entirely appropriate coming out of your mouth.

    In fact, the best still might be to come this season. Nadal loves the clay; it suits his heavy-spin forehand and his desire to run around the world if necessary to track down a shot. But while the caressing give of European red clay cushions his joints, the style of play he must employ to win on the stuff is killing them. The point being, he could end up loving the equally joint-cushioning grass at Wimbledon even more. He can't roam five feet behind Centre Court's baseline and hope to stay in points. The ball stays too low. So when in England, he moves up in the court, sometimes all the way to the net. Points and matches go by faster, just what his tender knees need. Against all predictions, he's made this stylistic adjustment with aplomb. Even Federer, a seven-time champion at SW19 and the best mover on grass in the history of the game, would rather see Nadal in the other half of the Wimbledon draw.

    At this point, the only man who can stop Nadal from reaching Federer's major-championship record isn't Federer, who turns 32 in a couple of months, but the top-ranked Novak Djokovic.

    This was supposed to be Djokovic's time, remember? He had definitively passed Nadal in 2011, beating him in Madrid and Rome, at Wimbledon and the U.S. Open. He recorded a mind-numbing seven straight wins over Rafa and took away his number-one ranking.

    But Nadal, as he did to conquer Federer at Wimbledon, has adjusted. He topped Djokovic in last year's Roland Garros final and, even after his seven-month layoff, he did it again last week in the Roland Garros semifinals.

    Nadal, keeping his ambitions under his hat, continues to offer up Leon Spinks-like deference to the greats of the game, past and present. That won't change. But don't be surprised if more and more people start labeling him the greatest.

    -- Douglas Perry

    Exclusive: Read the e-book "The Fall and Rise of Roger Federer: 9 Unexpected Turning Points in Tennis History."
     
    #1
  2. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    But Nadal also has get at least some of the following , even if he gets to 17-18 majors.

    - about 250 weeks+ at No 1
    - 3 to 5 WTF
    - at least 3-4 majors needed at a minimum at AO / USO . 1 each looks more like a fluke .
    - 2 more wimbledon wins needed. Sampras , Fed and Borg are great because they have 5+ Wimbledons, the epitome of tennis.
     
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  3. Tennis Fanatic 070

    Tennis Fanatic 070 Banned

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    Agreed..



    Btw TDK, do you have a link that confirms the validity of your signature, people were starting to doubt this in another thread, but it got removed.

    I know I can google it, but you have to prove the validity, not me. Thanks in advance.
     
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  4. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    I'm pretty sure most experts still have these 3 players at the top in the following order:

    1. Federer
    2. Laver
    3. Sampras
     
    #4
  5. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    I guess that makes sense. Fed has the best resume, Nadal has been the "best" as far as the h2h with all main rivals of this modern era, and is the best player currently.
     
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  6. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Sure hold on
     
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  7. Readers

    Readers Semi-Pro

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    Complete BS, Sampras never won a FO, surely he wasn't that great? What a joke.

    Weeks at No.1 is double counting of tournament won.

    Only Valid point is WTF, but if we count that, then you need to consider Nadal has most Master title ever and Olympic gold.
     
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  8. Antonio Puente

    Antonio Puente Hall of Fame

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    That's fantasyland. The truth of the matter is, should Nadal continue to win slams, the only way Fed could remain the GOAT would be to even out the H2H, and that's not happening. Fed's only hope is for Nadal to stop winning slams. Now.
     
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  9. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Most of my threads get deleted sooner or later because you guys get hysterical.

    Anyway per your request here is one full article ....but it's in a lot of other places . Now please don't get mad at me....Sampras actually said much more but couldn't fit it in my signature . All I did was print want he said......

    Anyway let me beat you to it "Sampras is just jealous , bandwagoner bla bla bla ".......couldn't it possibly be an honest opinion ?


    Article

    Sampras says Federer needs to get on top of Nadal
    7/15/09 1:35 PM | Johan Lindahl
    Pete Sampras says that Roger Federer must ultimately earn a winning career record against rival Rafael Nadal to be considered the greatest player of all time.

    "Roger's career isn't done yet," said the seven-time Wimbledon champion who watched from the Royal Box as Federer defeated Andy Roddick ten days ago at the All-England Club to to win a record 15th Grand Slam singles crown.

    "He's going to play Nadal a number of times over the next number of years, and he has to beat him (if he wants) to be considered the greatest ever, certainly in my book."

    LA-based Sampras will play Marat Safin next month at the Los Angeles ATP event in an exhibition which recalls the 2000 US Open final, when the young Russian thrashed the reigning king of the courts.

    "You have to be the man of your generation and Roger has come up short against Nadal," the American said of Federer's 7-13 mark against the Spaniard, with Nadal winning six of their last seven through to a May final loss in Madrid.

    "He has to figure this kid out, he has to beat him," Sampras said of the 27-year-old Federer, French Open and Wimbledon champion this season.

    "He's lost to him a number of times, he just has to figure out Nadal."
     
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  10. qwertre

    qwertre Rookie

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    Does this make Fed the GOAT and Nadal the BOAT? :)
     
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  11. ManOfSteel2013

    ManOfSteel2013 Banned

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    The most difficult achievement in tennis is winning 3 slams on clay, grass and hardcourt in the same Calendar Year. Nadal did it. No other man ever did. If Nadal does it again, he's the outright GOAT, even without the 17 slam titles. This year can seal it.

    If not, then there's always the other records-
    - winning slams for 10 years in a row (will reach that next year)
    - winning a slam title 10 times (2 more RGs will do it)
    - winning TWO Career Grand Slams (requires one more AO and one more USO)
    - 30 wins over Djokovic, 30 wins over Federer and 20 wins over Murray
    - and reaching 17 slams is very likely for Nadal, until someone can so stop him at Roland Garros
     
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  12. spinovic

    spinovic Hall of Fame

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    I disagree. If Nadal equals Fed's slam count, the H2H makes it pretty difficult to argue for Roger regardless of the rest of his #'s.

    I do agree that he needs to win a few more slams on something besides clay, but he will do that if he gets to 17. He's not winning Roland Garros for 13 of 14 years. If he gets to 17, it will have to include at least 3 off the clay, IMO.
     
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  13. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Bionic Poster

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    Wimby or the USO is a must for him this year. He'll have good chances at one of the two. I like his chances better at the USO than Wimby to be honest. He's done really well at the USO since 08, I feel like week 1 Wimbledon could be rough again if he's not sharp.
     
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  14. tennnnis

    tennnnis Rookie

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    If Nadal and Federer ends their career with same major titles then I can agree that he needs 250 weeks+ at No1.

    If Nadal ends his career with more slams than Federer then he does not need any of above list.

    You have to remember that Fed got 1 FRENCH OPEN or 1 CLAY SLAM while Nadal has 1 US OPEN AND 1 AUSSIE or 2 HARD COURT SLAM.

    Nadal has 2 slam titles in his worst surface and Fed has 1 slam titles in his worst one. This is because there are 2 hard court slams and 1 clay slam in a year. Everyone can sure that Nadal would have 1 hard court slam if there was only 1 hard court major in a year but anyone can sure that Fed would have 2 clay slams if there were 2 clay majors a year?
    It is nonsense that people keep saying that Nadal needs more hard court majors. Please say that after Fed win another French.
    Anyway 2 in worst surface is certainly better than 1 in worst surface. This is done!!!

    Nadal does not need WTF in any cases to surpass Federer. Federer does not have olympics, davis cup, monte carlo, rome. Why does Nadal need WTF? It is not a Grand slam. You know only grand slam counts!!!
    If they have same grand slam then we can look at weeks at no.1, WTF and masters.
     
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  15. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    There are far more salient asterisks that need to be applied if the author is going to make the argument that Laver would to have had more majors if the times had been different..

    One is, if Wimbledon was played in the sort of conditions it had been for all of its existence prior to about 2003 how many times would Nadal have won it?

    None.

    What about also: if conditions had not been slowed progressively since the mid 2000s how many hard court Masters titles would Nadal have won?

    Who knows? Half as many as he has would be a good starting point.

    If Wimbledon and the Australian Open hadn't been slowed down so significantly compared to their entire previous histories how many more would Federer have won?

    A couple more almost for sure.

    If Wimbledon was as slow in the 90s as it is now how many fewer titles would Sampras have won?

    A couple at least.

    Almost ad nauseum you can add asterisks or qualifiers or to promote or demote whichever player you chose to love/loathe.

    Until Nadal has the historically important metrics to show he is greater than Federer he simply cannot be considered greater than Federer by anyone except partisans or hacks.
     
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  16. kishnabe

    kishnabe G.O.A.T.

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    Nadal needs to get to 17 slams with at 3 more of those coming from AO, SW19, and US.

    Federer needs 1 more FO....to put all the discussion away!
     
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  17. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    It is not out of the realm to expect Nadal finish his career with
    - 12 French Opens ( 4 more here)
    - 3 Wimbledon ( 1 more)
    - 1 AO and 1 USO (may be 3 at FO and 1 more in hard)

    In such an event, while the slam count is even, this is so skewed as opposed to Federer's balanced major count. Now do not count AO and USO as one. For starters, they are different seasons of the year, different surface, etc.,

    While the H2H is just one part of the comparison that weighs in Nadal's favor, the fact that he has only 100 + weeks severely diminishes Nadal's case. 100 + weeks are typically what a 6-8 major winner has . That kind of further supports the fact that Nadal's records are clay based . We all know he is clay GOAT, but he needs to have overall records as compared to Fed in all 4 majors.

    Now you can talk about Olympics, Davis Cup etc., They are team events, have lesser points, so those dont count as much as a WTF. Of course , Nadal will have considerably higher number of Masters, but here again if you look at the clay masters, the % is too high.

    Bottomline, Nadal has to win outside clay in the rest of his career for him to gain a place in history as GOAT.
     
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  18. 1477aces

    1477aces Hall of Fame

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    Rafa needs #1. It's the reason connors and lendl are ahead of agassi in my book, weeks at #1. So get going, beat djokovic.
     
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  19. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Wiedmer: Nadal may now argue for best ever


    Spain's Rafael Nadal celebrates winning against compatriot David Ferrer in three sets 6-3, 6-2, 6-3, in the final of the French Open tennis tournament, at Roland Garros stadium in Paris, Sunday June 9, 2013.
    Photo by Associated Press /Chattanooga Times Free Press.
    His biggest fans have argued for years that Rafael Nadal will eventually become the greatest tennis player ever.

    Given his 20-10 career mark against Roger Federer -- the player most of the rest of the world considers the GOAT (greatest of all time) -- such a statement is not without merit.

    Especially after this past weekend in Paris, where Nadal became the first player in history to win the same Grand Slam tournament eight times when he again captured the French Open on his beloved red clay.

    In case you missed it, that's eight French crowns in nine years, which also just happens to be a 59-1 overall record at the event.

    Another perspective: By straight-setting the scrappy munchkin David Ferrer on Sunday, Nadal has now lost a total of 18 sets in nine French tourneys.

    As his fellow Spaniard noted after the loss, "Rafael, in important moments, he's the best."

    Throw in Nadal's two Wimbledon crowns to date, his one Aussie Open title and lone U.S. Open championship -- as well as the fact that he just turned 27 -- and it's easy for even the most intense Federer defenders to worry that the GOAT's record 17 Grand Slam tourney titles could be in jeopardy, which would end any argument about which player is the best ever.

    Yet to watch Nadal through this past fortnight in France is to wonder if he might not already be that, or at least be but one or two non-French Grand Slam titles away from casting great doubt concerning Fed's stranglehold on the GOAT label.

    We'll begin with Nadal's record in Grand Slam finals against Federer, which is 6-2. In all other Slam finals, Fed stands 15-1.

    Beyond that, Nadal is undefeated against Federer (6-0) aside from Wimbledon, where Fed leads 2-1. The two have never met at the U.S. Open, but Nadal is 5-0 against him at the French and 2-0 at the Aussie Open.

    Overall, he's 14-6 in all tournament finals against the GOAT.

    It's not just Federer, however, that Nadal personally owns. Following last Friday's epic five-set victory over world No. 1 Novak Djokovic, the Spaniard has a 20-15 lead in that pairing, though most of that has come on the King of Clay's favorite surface, where Nadal leads 13-3.

    Yet Nadal also has won 21 of his last 22 matches against the Top 10 on all surfaces. He's played in nine tournaments this year, reached the final in every one and won seven of them.

    And he's doing all of this in 2013 after missing seven months between August of 2012 and February of this year with knee issues, which have plagued him for most of his career.

    If Nadal's finally 100 percent, or close to it, it's harder to imagine him not passing Federer's 17 Slams than it is to see him on top.

    This isn't to say Federer supporters are without argument for his permanent role as GOAT if Nadal falls short of 17, especially if he never passes 14 or 15. The human Swiss Army Knife will almost certainly be remembered as the most graceful, creative, elegant champion in history, tennis's Ali to Nadal's Joe Frazier.

    And in some respects, Federer's unrelenting excellence -- 36 straight Grand Slam quarterfinals -- has now begun to work against him. Just as Pete Sampras wore down before Andre Agassi, Federer may be hitting the wall at 31, all those extra miles on his slender frame no longer able to consistently hang with the biggest hitters over the seven straight matches required to claim a major.

    To revisit tennis analyst Mary Carillo's astute observation: "There are times when Federer almost looks frail out there."

    His supporters will say he won Wimbledon for a seventh time a year ago, and a fully healthy Federer might gut out a similar victory this summer, though he seems to be suffering from a sore back these days, even if he swears otherwise.

    Either way, he's reached but one major final (Wimbledon) since the 2011 French Open and has failed to advance to the final in 11 of his last 13 majors. Five times during that span he's failed to escape the quarterfinals.

    In fact, Nadal's chief rival is no longer Federer, but Djokovic, who has reached 12 straight Grand Slam semis, winning five of eight finals over that span. He has six total Slam crowns, trailing only Federer and Nadal among active players.

    So now it's on to Wimbledon, where 2012 U.S. Open winner and Olympic gold medalist Andy Murray hopes to rejoin the rest of the Big Four of Nadal, Djokovic and Fed.

    But something Nadal mentioned Sunday may already hint at the eventual result in jolly ol' England.

    Said the King of Clay, "The things are going more than perfect."

    Which could lead to perfectly awful results for everyone in his way in the months, if not years, to come.

    Contact Mark Wiedmer at mwiedmer@timesfreepress.com.
     
    #19
  20. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Ever heard of Olympic SINGLES gold? Maybe not since Fed's never won it right?
     
    #20
  21. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    #1 doesn't mean sheet. The rankings are a joke.

    Do you really think Ferrer is better than Nadal?

    Is Wozniaki Better than Serena ?

    What about the great Marcelo Rios? Oh never heard of him? He was the #1 player in the world .

    What about Boris Becker ? Guess what never year end #1......

    The rankings don't work.
     
    #21
  22. DeShaun

    DeShaun Banned

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    I sincerely feel like Rafa holding 8 Frenches as well as the career slam, while having slayed an undoubtedly tougher main rival in Roger than Andre ever was to Pete, that Pete has just been passed by by Rafa.
     
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  23. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Rafael Nadal Is Challenging Roger Federer For The Title Of 'Greatest Of All Time'

    Despite a knee injury that caused him to miss the last two Grand Slam events, Rafael Nadal won his eighth French Open on Sunday. By doing so, he is starting to make a strong case as the greatest tennis player of all time.

    The win was Nadal's 12th Grand Slam title, matching Roy Emerson the third most in the history of men's tennis (see chart below). He is also the first men's player to win one Grand Slam eight times and is one of only seven players to win all four Grand Slam events.

    And Nadal has done this in an era when he had to compete against both Roger Federer and Novak Djokovic in their primes.

    As long as Nadal can stay healthy, he still has 2-3 more years at the top of his game and only Djokovic as a main threat (and Andy Murray as a lesser threat), to add to his trophy collection.

    [​IMG]
     
    #23
  24. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    He has won outside clay (three out of those son against the best players btw)... four majors and the Olympic gold, consider he has the highest winning %, in a tour dominated by hc.

    You play DC singles matches, that even give ATP points.
    And the Olympics are not a team event.
     
    #24
  25. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    But Nadal only missed TWO majors in a row ('12 US Open and '13 Aus Open), not three.
     
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  26. Sentinel

    Sentinel Bionic Poster

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    ^ Losing in the second round, for TDK, is as good as missing the slam. :D

    He was injured, no ?
     
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  27. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Oops

    ...
     
    #27
  28. ledwix

    ledwix Hall of Fame

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    No, but Nadal skipped half a year. Duh his ranking will be low compared to his level of play. Doesn't mean rankings are invalid. Any anomaly you can point to is like saying slams don't matter. Johansson won a slam, and he sucked. So slams don't matter.

    Anomalies mean nothing. 302 weeks, a summary statistic to average out all the crap, means everything.

    Why don't we just scrap the rankings, if they're so irrelevant? Nadal is historically a #2 player. Not the front-runner or best player, since his success, while great, is focused around a 3 month stretch of the season. That's why he has "suffered" in the rankings relative to other GOAT candidates.
     
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  29. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Sure it does.

    He is not ranked where he should be for whatever the reason .

    I believe the rankings should be re formulated actually so you don't have a situation where a wozniaki or Jankovic are #1 and Serena listed so low.

    The current system is driven by how much you play and not how good you are.

    That's why a guy like Becker who beat Lendl in Wimbledon and the US open was ranked #2 and Lendl #1.....there is something very wrong with that .

    Or Andy Roddick ranked #1 in the world should not have had as high a ranking for the FO for example . There something very wrong with this.

    The first thing I would do is have surface based rankings . I would have a ranking for hard courts a ranking for clay and a ranking for grass. Each surface is like a different sport almost and they should not be lumped together .

    For the slams I would go back to the way Wimbledon did it . They used to have a closed panel of judges who would vote on where players should be ranked rather than the money driven ranking system we have today.

    This may not be the best alternative just my idea .....but one thing for sure .....the current system does not reflect who is actually the best and there is something wrong with that.

    You can never get it perfect but this system is horrible .
     
    #29
  30. ledwix

    ledwix Hall of Fame

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    Women's tennis is useless in this. You never see guys as bad as Carol Wozniak, Elaine Yank, or Diana Safin at #1 in the men's game. When Federer held the #1 ranking, he always held 2 slams, usually 3 even, and often WTF and several masters. The only anomaly was 2012, when it was clear Federer was at least the most accomplished player over the last 12 months and also the holder of the game's greatest title. Either way, 300 >>> 100.
     
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  31. Gandalf

    Gandalf Rookie

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    So he says here Nadal is the greatest, thus greater than him?

    But here he says he says he's greater than Nadal.


    Sneaky Pete, heh
     
    #31
  32. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near Talk Tennis Guru

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    Relax folks, ...
    For me, Nadal has to prove himself much more because more than anybody else the changing conditions have co-aligned absolutely beautifully for his tennis paradigm. The talks of Nadal's great tennis adaptations are greatly exaggerated. Now I also say many very good and nice things about Nadal, as well as bring up things that I find distasteful, but I believe this to be entirely true.
     
    #32
  33. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near Talk Tennis Guru

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    Relax folks, ...
    When a player is growing up and learning their trade, he and his coaching staff know the score of what they are going to be facing on the pro tour. When they arrive on the pro tour primed and ready for the existing tennis context, 3 things could happen; the conditions over their career move naturally away from what they've developed as instinct in your tennis, the conditions move in favour of them, or they stay approximately at the same level relevance to their game. Federer has battled much more than just fierce rivals as he has slowly moved out of his prime, the whole tennis tour has gradually moved away from his game as well, it's a triple whammy of age, rivals, and unfortunate condition changes.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
    #33
  34. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    He doesn't have Fed's variety but who does?

    On his weaker surfaces(let's say HC):
    2 AO finals(consider the fact that he skipped the event in 2006/2013 and got injured in 2011 QF).
    2 USO finals.
    2 WTF SF and one final. Lost to Fed all times.

    I mean, Nadal arguably has a better rounded resume that Murray in off clay GS's and I don't think anyone doubts Murray's adaptation skills(he even made a RG semifinal though clay isn't his forte).

    WB: Nadal - 5 finals, 2 titles. Murray - one final, 0 titles.
    AO: Nadal - 2 finals, one title. Murray - 3 finals - 0 titles.
    USO : Nadal - 2 finals, one title. Murray - 2 final, one title.
    WTF: Nadal - 2 SF, 1 F, 0 titles. Murray - 3 SF, 0 titles.
     
    #34
  35. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near Talk Tennis Guru

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    Relax folks, ...
    I'm not saying Nadal didn't adapt, I'm saying he received significant help. Even the most ardent Nadal fan would have to accept that this is the case; as amazing as his career has been, the conditions have more and more aligned with how he naturally plays the game anyway and what works for him and has moved away from Roger during the very same timespan that one can also expect the beginnings of physical decline. So for me, if I were to consider Nadal to be the greatest player of the Open era over Sampras, Federer, Borg then there are a few specific things I'd need to see him achieve again such as 1. winning US Open for second 2. another Wimbledon title. 3. a WTF title or two. Additionally, ending another year as the number 1 ranked player.
     
    #35
  36. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    I'm talking general adaptation, not the greatest adaptation skills needed to be the GOAT. Nadal doesn't have that.

    Nadal even has a indoor title(worst surface) whereas someone like Murray doesn't even have a clay final to his name(at any level). He obviously doesn't have to adapt like Borg did to clay and grass(the extremes of old) but in the first week Nadal stands closer to the baseline to return or else he would barely survive first week. As high bouncing as WB has become, it's still a pretty fast court.

    It's true that AO and USO have slowed down during Nadal's lifetime but it's not like Nadal was falling in R1 when the conditions were faster. When AO was Rebound Ace he fell around 4R/QF to guys like Hewitt(in Lleyton's last good year) or to eventual finalists like Gonzalez.

    In USO he made it to QF/4R/SF/SF in the 2006-2009 span(was USO fast then?).

    When WTF was faster(unlike at the O2 arena) he made SF twice and could have made the final or won the event if Fed wasn't in his way.
     
    #36
  37. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near Talk Tennis Guru

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    Relax folks, ...
    That's right, things did change to suit him. It isn't like he sucked but if the tour had moved away from his natural tennis paradigm rather than for it then that could easily have been a big enough difference for him to have never won those events, therefore I've outlined some further things I'd personally need to see him achieve If I were to consider him to be truly the greatest (the previous post). You don't need to read what I say as black and white, I never even began to imply that Nadal doesn't adapt at all or that if things were different he definitely wouldn't win x amount or he'd lose in 1R of every tournie, because he is a great player, not a muppet. However, these changes can be important and tide changing at the top of the game.

    The one that I think is the most sort of let's say, overtly lucky, is the surface change at the AO (for Djokovic).
     
    #37
  38. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Rafa has the right attitude. 5 slams are not easy to win. I think his main goal should be to start winning slams outside of clay again. The last time was 3 years ago. If he can do that, he will challenge Fed's legacy for sure. Let's not forget he is the only active player with more than 1 slam on every surface.
     
    #38
  39. Tennis Fanatic 070

    Tennis Fanatic 070 Banned

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    Funny, because a month earlier after Federer won the FO in 2009 this article appeared in an Australian Newspaper (http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/te...t-of-them-all/2009/06/08/1244313067536.html):


    Article

    Pete Sampras already figured Roger Federer would go down as the greatest tennis player in history.

    That Federer tied Sampras' record of 14 Grand Slam titles by winning the French Open on Sunday only reinforced that opinion.

    "What he's done over the past five years has never, ever been done - and probably will never, ever happen again," Sampras said.

    "Regardless if he won there or not, he goes down as the greatest ever. This just confirms it."

    Federer added his first French Open championship to five titles at Wimbledon, five at the US Open and three at the Australian Open.

    Federer is the sixth man to win a career Grand Slam, joining Don Budge, Fred Perry, Rod Laver, Roy Emerson and Andre Agassi as the only men to win all four slams.

    Sampras was home in Los Angeles on Sunday and watched on TV during part of Federer's 6-1 7-6 (7-1) 6-4 victory over Robin Soderling in the final at Roland Garros. Federer lost three previous French Open finals to Rafael Nadal.

    "I'm obviously happy for Roger," Sampras said. "If there's anyone that deserves it, it's Roger. He's come so close."

    In what turned out to be Sampras' last match, he beat Andre Agassi in the 2002 US Open final at age 31 in his 52nd career Grand Slam tournament. Federer is 27 and has collected his 14 major championships in 40 Grand Slam tournaments.

    "He just is a great, great player that is a credit to the sport and is a positive influence for young kids and just tennis in general," Sampras said. "It looks pretty tough to beat now with 14 majors, and I'm sure he's going to go on and win a lot more."

    Federer will get his first chance to break Sampras' mark at Wimbledon, which starts on June 22. Sampras isn't sure whether he'll go to the All England Club.

    "We'll sort of see what happens," Sampras said.

    Agassi completed his career Grand Slam at the French Open in 1999, and he was on hand a decade later to present Federer with the champion's trophy on Sunday.

    "How do you sort of argue with his numbers? It's pretty incredible," Agassi said. "A lot of people say it's better to be lucky than good. I'd rather be Roger than lucky.

    "It ends the discussion of where he fits in the history of the game.

    "If it hadn't been for the freak from Mallorca, Federer would have won all the slams a few times."

    As for the debate about the greatest player, Sampras long has pointed to Australian Rod Laver as his idol.

    Laver won a true Grand Slam - all four major titles in one season - in both 1962 and 1969, the last man to do it. Laver finished with 11 Grand Slam titles, although he was barred from competing in those tournaments from the time he turned pro in 1963 to the start of the Open era in 1968.

    Now Sampras' choice is Federer.

    "Now that he's won in Paris, I think it just more solidifies his place in history as the greatest player that played the game, in my opinion," Sampras said. "I'm a huge Laver fan, and he had a few years in there where he didn't have an opportunity to win majors. But you can't compare the eras, and in this era, the competition is much more fierce than Rod's."

    Billy Jean King agreed with Sampras.

    "This is going to mean so much to him, to have that hole filled. I think it will change his life," she wrote in an email to Reuters

    "His win today at the French Open, tying Pete Sampras's record for major titles and the completion of a career grand slam firmly places him in a special place as the greatest player of all time.

    "He has earned his place and he has proven he belongs. Roger is a champion for the ages."










    So the article you are referring to, is fake or his words were twisted. I can imagine someone change his opinion in a year, but not in a month. And I think Pete would have known he's not believable after saying Fed is the GOAT just 1 month earlier. And the funniest part is, the article you are referring to is dated 10 days after Fed won Wimbledon in one of the best matches ever. So I guess that proves you article doesn't make sense at all and must be fake: He claims Fed is the GOAT, but after his 6th title at Wimby a month later (where he passed Sampras' 14 slams, and therefore broke the slam record), suddenly Fed isn't the GOAT anymore? LOL!!! So the guy (Johan Lindahl) who wrote this article is a big fat liar, probably a Nadal fan or something. When you google him, you find nothing, no references at all. While the article I posted is from a 2 big independent news agencies (the Associated press and Reuters).

    So your signature is fake!!!!! And since you opinion is based on Sampras' opinion, this means you believe Fed is the GOAT know. Welcome to the club!!!

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
    #39
  40. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near Talk Tennis Guru

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    Relax folks, ...
    Olympics singles gold, only started gaining some real prestige in 2012... still lagging behind, needs a couple more iterations to truly find its place.

    Whoops, I was on the wrong page. This is a response to post #20.
     
    #40
  41. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    For a reason we all know. He skipped the Olympics, 2 slams, WTF, 5 masters. Of course that's gonna have an impact on the ranking (he also lost early at last W). It would be weird if it didn't. It's just a matter of patience though. If he goes deep in W this year, his ranking is gonna start shooting up.
     
    #41
  42. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    I think it's weird that he is not ranked where he is supposed to be ranked.

    And we all lose in the end ....for example we didn't see a Joker Nadal final the way it should have been.

    The system is based on money to line the promoters pockets with . The more you play the higher the ranking .

    That's why you can be #1 without winning a slam.....Marcelo rios for example or Ivan Lendl was # 1 for years before ever winning a slam. Wozniaki , Jankovic .....

    Or on the reverse .....Becker beat Lendl at the USO and wimby and was #2.......does that seem right to you??? Becker deserved to be the better player that year.

    The problem is that then players will not play as much little tournaments and the promoters will make less money .

    On the other hand players will get injured less as well.
     
    #42
  43. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Tennis fanatic I don't understand why you say my signature is a fake . I printed the article for you . What more can I do?
     
    #43
  44. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Nadal is only the best on clay, he hasn't done half as well as Federer on hards or grass.
     
    #44
  45. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Federer didn't have a career slam at age 27 either.

    Fed's got 5 more years on Rafa, let's just wait and see what happens first yeah?

    Rafa hasn't achieved as much yet, but he's in a good place to add to his achievements it all really depends on what happens from now until he retires before we can really determine his place in the game.

    Please remember though, Federer didn't have to deal with anyone like Novak from 2011 onwards like Nadal has had to. If Nadal had to play Philippoussis in WIM11, Hewitt in USO11 and Baghdatis in AO12 he would've won all 3 of them and been sitting on 15 slams by now to go with many, many more weeks at #1.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
    #45
  46. Sorana fan

    Sorana fan Banned

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    That's rubbish.

    ******* needs

    -a singles gold medal,
    -3 or 4 DC
    -exclusive dominance in a GS (not shared)
    -many more M1000
    -h2h

    Otherwise he cant even be considered for the goat debate
     
    #46
  47. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Dominating Federer should be worth something . How it is come tell discounted is beyond me. In fact it should be the most important factor ....and the fact that percentage wise Nadal has won more slams ......Federer has lost more slams than anyone in history .
     
    #47
  48. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Philippoussis was Federer's first slam opponent, he was atleast in his second final unlike Puerta. Philoppoussis also had a lot of potential and wasn't exactly a scrub. Federer had to deal with Nadal as he aged, it's no different to Nadal now having to face Novak. Federer has also had to combat Novak too lets not forget.

    Baghdatis at the AO 06 > Ferrer FO 13 ;). Hewitt at the USO in 04 was in good form, on a fast hardcourt he'd do fine against Nadal. I expect he'd lose but I doubt the score would be 6-0 7-6 6-0.

    Nadal will never reach Federer's achievements on grass and hardcourts, just like Federer will never reach Nadal's achievements on clay.
     
    #48
  49. Sorana fan

    Sorana fan Banned

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    Baghdatis & Philoppoussis always been nobodies in the great stage
     
    #49
  50. Tennis Fanatic 070

    Tennis Fanatic 070 Banned

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    LOL, you really still don't understand? Can you read at all? Come one, read again, after my quotes, at the bottom, I couldn't be more clear about the reason why your article is fake. In fact, I have proved your article is fake. I know you didn't make it up, but the guy who wrote that article did.
     
    #50

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