High level play rating.

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by J011yroger, Feb 15, 2007.

  1. Sup2Dresq

    Sup2Dresq Hall of Fame

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    I salute you smoothtennis for this post.

    [​IMG]

    I, like Drakulie , also like Jolly and enjoy his funny posts. However I drew the line when it came to the "hype". I even went to him offline before all of this to talk about it and got "I'm totally awesome.. solomon grundy!".

    He'll probably dislike me, hates me, despises me.. but hopefully he sees the light and starts playing tennis within himself. If he improves the right way I would like to take this time to say "I take full credit" for setting his behind back on track.

    Toast to hoping Jolly doesn't become a cleopatra "queen of de-nial"

    [​IMG]
     
  2. jrod

    jrod Hall of Fame

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    Not to detract from all the speculation and bashing but, I really like this word Puffery. It's really a very useful term to describe much of what we see not only on the boards, but in everyday life. The boards are ideal for Major Puffery, since no one is really held accountable in the virtual world. Nevertheless, Puffery is on display in the real world all the time.

    In my opinion, Puffery is a defense mechanism primarily. Very few individuals feel good enough about themselves to never rely on some degree of Puffery. When you meet someone who does not rely on Puffery, its actually quite refreshing.

    I agree with Drak on this score: People should feel good about what they have accomplished. There will always be better players, smarter people, richer people with faster cars, bigger houses, etc. So what?

    Now while Jo11y may rely on Puffery, his posts and his persona are still unique and informative. Cut him some slack folks. It's not like the rest of us don't resort to Puffery.
     
  3. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    Truth hurts.
     
  4. SuperDuy

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    k cause at my club, open is above 5.0 a is 4 to 5 b is 3 to 4 c is just 3

    any1 else have opinions on abc open
     
  5. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Bud, for a while there I missed your response amidst all the Jollygate postings.

    Anyway, my point was that no matter where we draw the line of when you can consider someone 'good', we will be excluding a lot of players who are working hard to improve and who are deservedly proud of their game.

    You've set the bar at 3.5, so there's a bunch of 3.0 out there that might take that as an insult, since you have labeled them as not good.

    My perspective is that there's no shame in not being 'good'. I just think that to be good you need to have mastery of most aspects of the game, and I don't see that in players below 5.0.

    Again, this coming from a 4.0 who is decidedly not good, and not ashamed to admit it :)
     
  6. ohplease

    ohplease Professional

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    Here's the thing: we all know ratings are bunk. There's USTA league ratings and there's Craigslist ratings, and never the twain shall meet. One response to that is to say - "screw it - I'm just going to play Open."

    So Jolly does that. Good for him. What he's not doing (and for which people are rightfully taking him to task) is learning to compete. There might not be much meaning behind 3.5 vs. 4.0 vs. 4.5 (more on that later), but there would be real value for Jolly in doing time in those leagues.

    And that brings us to the real problem. Due to the team and incentive structure of USTA leagues (which can be reasonably characterized as the one true source of USTA ratings, yes?), the rating system is a complete mess. Forget where you think your game belongs - what really matters is the choice of winning vary rarely, sometimes, or all the time. I can drop match tough 3.5 sectional teams wholesale into 4.0 and 4.5 local leagues, and I wouldn't be the least surprised to find out they'd do well at the more advanced levels, too. That's not a guess, either - I've seen it happen repeatedly after people get bumped and reform at the higher levels - where the core of lower level teams make it to local league or even district level playoffs right after getting bumped. Maybe there's been some improvement in some aspect of their techniques - but what's really core to their success is the continued hiding of their weaknesses and application of their strengths - regardless of style, and frankly, of level, too.

    Let's get this out of the way: Jolly's technique is likely better than his results. That's both a defense of the choices he's made in how he's developing his game, and the worst criticism I can possibly level at a tennis player. The whole point of tennis is to compete, and every time he - or anyone else, for that matter - chooses to dedicate time or energy to an aspect of their game that doesn't help them compete better, that's just missing the point, IMHO.

    That said, there are places where missing the point is the point. Among friends, public parks, in private clubs, etc. Those places aren't tournaments or USTA leagues.

    Still - all this piling on Jolly is deeply uncool. The man loves the sport, and made the mistake of cocking off on the internet 2 years ago. It's not like he's still using that tone now, so what? The only good thing about all of this is people should realize the deep differences between using the ratings to find someone worth hitting with vs. what those ratings mean in actual league play. The other good thing is what it says about competition-first vs. technique-first tennis development (answer: you need to work on both).
     
  7. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    ^^^He is still doing it now, that's the problem. Just, on various and sundry other threads.

    I have to disagree that his technique is better than his results.

    My .02.
     
  8. rasajadad

    rasajadad Hall of Fame

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    As I'm sure most of us will agree NTRP rating are HIGHLY subjective and are based on some sort of self rating, which is usually a joke or some rater's judgement of our stroke production. A couple of comments:
    On the first topic- John McEnroe can self rate as a 5.0 next year. Any 5.0's here think they can beat him?
    On the latter- Stroke production doesn't win tennis matches/tournaments.

    I don't know Jolly, but I do know NTRP ratings.
     
  9. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    What? What do you mean subjective?

    People with computer rated NTRPs get those ratings from match results.

    Not subjective.
     
  10. JRstriker12

    JRstriker12 Hall of Fame

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    NTRP is only based on self rating for the first year, then your rating is based on your results.

    Yes, there are people who take advantage of the self-rate period, yes there are some sandbaggers, but IMHO, overall, the system works in creating competitive leagues for AVERAGE players (3.0-4.5).

    I play 3.5 and I can't say that I"ve ever been in a match 3.5 league match where my opponent just didn't belong on that level. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones.

    As for a 5.0 playing JMac - I'd think most people would play that guy JUST to say they played JMac - however, I can't see him signing up for your local USTA league - I'm sure he knows people who can give him a good game.
     
  11. LafayetteHitter

    LafayetteHitter Hall of Fame

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    I have a friend who is a benchmark 5.0 on USTA. Every now and then I browse my friends league and tournament info just to see how they are doing. I noticed over the last two years he had losses on a few occasions to a few 4.5 guys, and also had a win over a guy who was 5.5 at the time and is now 6.0. I suppose at 4.5 and above there becomes some shady area that you really don't see with the guys that are at 3.0 level playing against a 4.0.
     
  12. ohplease

    ohplease Professional

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    Let me put it this way: there are so many annoying people on this message board nowadays that whatever Jolly is or isn't doing is way down on the list of things I'd call out.

    I accept that you don't think there's any disjoint at all between his technique and his results. I submit that such players certainly exist (and I think he's one of them), as does the converse, where someone might look like crap but also be tough as nails, competitively. I've seen the latter in open tournaments, just like I see the former playing 3.0 - all the time.

    Either way - it's really not that big a deal, and certainly doesn't deserve this level of nonsense. There most certainly ARE people here who do deserve this kind of treatment (and worse), but in my book, Jolly ain't one of them.
     
  13. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    I don't disagree with your premise but OTOH it took me about 1 minute to find this: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3980438&postcount=197
     
  14. Sup2Dresq

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  15. Fed Kennedy

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    First Polanski, now this. Brutal week.
     
  16. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    There is much wisdom here.

    Also, if we're going to spend our time nailing people for saying ridiculous stuff like how they could stomp Fed, Nadal, or the entire WTA, we're never going to get anything else done.

    What we need is a Mea Culpa thread where everyone who has ever boasted of their own tennis skills only to be humbled and proven to be a weekend hacker can 'fess up. It would be a very long thread indeed, and I might have to shove some of you out of the confessional so I can have my turn.
     
  17. AndrewD

    AndrewD Legend

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    I would think that, without any evidence of former rankings or results, no-one would entertain the idea of ranking a player at 4.5-5.0+.

    I also think that your NTRP ranks players one grade, at least, too high. I think that the ITN number, which is based on results and a measurable test, is a much more efficient tool. Based purely on the test, guys like Andres Gomez only rate as an NTRP 5.0 (there's a movement component and he isn't putting up the results to overcome that) and a top 1000 ATP player only rates in the 5.5-6.0 level (movement isn't a problem but he can't put up the results to jump higher). As a result, it puts an absolute premium on the rankings - something that I don't believe the NTRP does.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2009
  18. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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  19. smoothtennis

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  20. TonLars

    TonLars Professional

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    Gotta admit, this is an interesting thread to see considering the truth that we now know. Drakulie, you have to understand now why I would originally have thought Jolly was a 5.0, considering what was said that I read here a long time ago but forgot about.

    Having said that, again I too see Jolly to be a real nice guy on this board. He has been nice to me personally as well. It didnt really bother me at all, unlike the way it did Sup and Drak, that this "hype" was there. Figured it was just created by others and not denied. Some of this stuff isnt very good though again considering... to say the least. We all make mistakes. I think its probably good the way Jolly usually stays out of replying to this sort of thing.

    But at this point, I think the best thing would be if Jolly issued an apology and clarified everything, and then we can all move on from this.
     
  21. bertrevert

    bertrevert Hall of Fame

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    or this:
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=2642280&postcount=913

    Self rating can EXTEND you FURTHER! blue pill or red...?

    Anyway, I think any player needs to find their confidence somewhere and however they do it it can then add up in game play, so I'm not against it per se.

    (For instance I tend to think that fiddling about with little bits of lead makes a diff to my game. I could be mistaken but I enjoy thinking it advantages me. Ok I'm mistaken.)

    Reminds me of the mid-nineties internet - when grappling with truth and representation in MUDDs, Telnet conversations, java chats was challenging - and when who were talking with (or why!) was seriously challenging.

    Put simply, you were only as good as your word.

    Not much has changed.

    Look there's a guy I've played dubs with who buys all this Fed stuff. He's not much of a player but freakishly occasionally cranks out a forehand that's a rocket. He's a gear head. Setting aside the fact that all tennis players are (cough cough), I think trading on gear=player is where it's easy to get tangled up.
     
  22. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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  23. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    Well said Tony. Yes, the context and order of the original posts in this thread should be kept in mind. Reading it now, honestly...to me...it sounds like a bunch of ego maniacs giving themselves 'internet' pats on the back.

    I also think it would be best if Jolly commented and especially apologized, but unfortunately I don't see that happening. *shrug* It isn't like he couldn't just come out and say 'hey, I've learned a lot on these boards since that post, and I don't have the same opinions and views'...but he hasn't. Which would make one wonder if he does still have the same views about his play, however misleading they may be.

    Agree...confidence can take you far in the game of tennis (not to mention life)!

    But there is a difference between confidence and false bravado (if you will, not sure how to 'label' it...maybe puffery is the the best way).

    And knocking others down while you're doing it is simply not cool.

    Or...you're only as good as your results! ;)

    Yes, I do think it has been discussed a few times on the board...how you shouldn't fall into the trap of judging a player by their expensive gear/apparel (or lack there of).
     
  24. rasajadad

    rasajadad Hall of Fame

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    First of all, I mean raters are subjective. Second, with careful tanking a ringer could easily stay at a particular NTRP almost indefinitely.
     
  25. jrod

    jrod Hall of Fame

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    Whoa......

    I just realized that this thread was started ~2 years ago by J011y, and recently bumped in post 53, leading to the current onslaught...

    Talk about Non sequitur...
     
  26. JRstriker12

    JRstriker12 Hall of Fame

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    Yes the inital rating (it's usually a self-rating) can be a bit off, but people quickly find out where thier relative level is through league play.

    As for sandbaggers, what would be your solution? You have to base ratings on something, and that's usually results. Yes, there are some people who would care about winning enough to sandbag, but fortunately, most players don't.
     
  27. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Hey, Tonlars! Hope all is well with you.

    Believe me, I definitely understand now why many posters were a bit upset with him (to say the least). Never really bothered me, because I wasn't involved in threads where this whole issue (the hype) began, or has continued, such as this post quoted by, beernutz:

    For those who keep claiming he "doesn't add to the hype", well>>>>> they are either blind or flat out lying, as the proof is in the pudding.


    Anyway, you coming to south florida anytime soon? I got a chance to meet up and hit with BounceHitBounceHit and Samster in July. Both great guys, and good players. We hit at vanderbilt for two days.
     
  28. smoothtennis

    smoothtennis Hall of Fame

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    I just had a hideous thought. What happens when Jo11y starts winning these matches?! Will he turn into a young LeeD? :mrgreen:
     
  29. rasajadad

    rasajadad Hall of Fame

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    Oh I don't claim to have a solution for sandbaggers. My only point is that a lot of NTRP ratings are not accurate. My work-around is to play my age group tournaments rather than NTRP tournaments. (A lot less people sandbagging on their birth certificates.) ;-)
     
  30. JRstriker12

    JRstriker12 Hall of Fame

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    True - hard to sandbag on age. :)

    - But you still have to deal with and even wider range in ability level. For example, you could have a 50-yr old pro (former ATP 500 ranking) play a 50-year old with a 3.0 rating.

    Not knocking age level play, but if your problem with NTRP ratings is that you will occasioanlly bump into someone who isn't on your level (sandbagger), then I would think it would be even worse in the age group sections where there's no NTRP restrictions.

    I do agree that NTRP ratings tend to lose meaning the higher you go on the scale, and IIRC, an article in Tennis Mag a few weeks back talked about that. Really NTRP is only meant for averge players such as myself. You get above 4.5 or so and NTRP doesn't scale.
     
  31. UnforcedError

    UnforcedError Rookie

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    I think you are wrong, most NTRP ratings are accurate for people that have computer ratings from league play. Most people that guess their ratings based on the guidelines overrate themselves. I've been accused of sandbagging in a 4.5 doubles tournament, the guy said we were the best 4.5s he has ever seen. The truth was he had an inflated view of his rating and didn't know what a 4.5 was. I don't play in NTRP tournaments anymore.

    In a way Jolly was right, NTRP isn't meaningful above 5.0 but he was wrong when he says NTRP is bogus. If he played in leagues the last few years the computer would place in somewhere between 3.5 - 4.0 which would be accurate. My guess is he would have a fun time playing leagues but it would also mean coming to terms with reality which he might not be ready for yet.
     
  32. ohplease

    ohplease Professional

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    See here's the thing - it's not like Jolly busted in here trying to reaffirm his credentials. When I spoke of people around here who are WAY more annoying, we all can think of a few examples, and unlike Jolly, they certainly would have barged in here guns blazing.

    In contrast, beernutz had to go out and SEARCH for more examples of Jolly-isms. I certainly didn't see that - and here's the critical part - because I didn't go looking for it. Let's say I did run across him (or anyone else for that matter) being annoying. The vast majority of the time I don't start multiple crucifixion threads (although I most definitely have in a few obvious and IMHO deserved cases). Instead, I go look at their posting history, and invariably my response after reading a few is "Yup, that's about what I expected. Welcome to my ignore list."

    It's not that hard for people to read between the lines and come to their own conclusions. The old internet tar and feather doesn't accomplish much except for make the ring leaders of the mob look like bratty children. Yeah, he cocked off, but is that really worth the energy you're putting into the Internet Truth Commission? I doubt it.

    The swingweight wars are over. The players racket wars are over. The headsize wars are over. At this point, any regular forum member should be hella aware that there's a difference between self or social rating and actual, real life, blessed by the USTA computer Pope USTA league ratings. Amen. Let's move on to something else.

    Like what? How about starting with the fact that all this rating confusion is a direct result of the cluster that is the USTA self rating system vs. the actual implementation used by the computer. All the league levels are is a strict population bell curve. Doesn't matter how you got there. It's a bell curve of RESULTS, not skills. Bottom 1/5? 3.0. Average or lower? 3.5 Better than average? 4.0 Top 15%? 4.5. That's all. The fact that people are confused about that is nobody's fault except for the USTA.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2009
  33. Thud and blunder

    Thud and blunder Semi-Pro

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  34. Sup2Dresq

    Sup2Dresq Hall of Fame

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    Perhaps you need some "quod erat demonstrandum"? Here is something more recent...


     
  35. jrod

    jrod Hall of Fame

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    now that's truly "non sequitor"...(sigh)
     
  36. UnforcedError

    UnforcedError Rookie

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    The problem became much bigger than Jolly. If anyone questioned him others would chime in saying something like "oh yeah well Jolly could easily beat you". Others thought he was on the verge of turning pro. Then the Jolly team would chime in saying he never contributed to the hype: wrong. In the "JollyRig" thread Dennis even states he is extremely honest, yet in this thread Jolly says he is top 10 in his section. What is the truth? Hopefully the good thing to come out of this is the hype surrounding him stops.
     
  37. Sup2Dresq

    Sup2Dresq Hall of Fame

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    You know, I'm a big fan of Seinfeld. So instead of my standard quotes to reply.. I'm going with a video clip from one of my true favorite episode. The "comeback" episode with milosh the tennis shop worker. If you recall Jerry bought an expensive racquet based on the advice of Milosh, who he thought was good. Only to see him at another club and realizing he was terrible.

    SOUNDS VERY FAMILIAR...

    Jollygate continues:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUaMzsNKR7Q

    Miloš (Jerry Seinfeld)

    Jerry meets George at a private tennis club to play tennis. He goes to the pro shop where he is pressured into buying a brand new racquet by the worker there — an Eastern European man named Miloš (Mark Harelik). Later, while playing at a different club with Elaine, Jerry discovers that Miloš is a horrible tennis player. In Jerry's eyes, this undermines Miloš' credibility as a salesman.

    When Jerry confronts Miloš at the pro shop, he offers to do anything in exchange for Jerry not revealing his secret. Jerry implies that if Miloš sets him up with an attractive woman that they see in the shop, he will be silent. Later Jerry runs into the woman, who is named Patty (Ivana Milavich), waiting for him outside his apartment. She initially comes on strong, but recoils in shame after revealing that she is Miloš' wife and was instructed to come onto Jerry by her husband (of course she does not know Miloš' reason for setting up the date was to convince Jerry to keep his secret). The incident makes her lose respect for Miloš.

    In a new deal, Miloš wants Jerry to let him win in a game of tennis to regain Patty's respect. During the game, Miloš becomes boastful and gloating. After winning another game against Jerry, he exclaims "Another game for Miloš!" Jerry begins to play harder, frustrated at Miloš' taunts. Jerry hits a ball wide of Miloš who swings wildly at it, releasing his racquet into the air, which finally comes down on another tennis player who falls on a ball machine, redirecting its aim to Kramer's head.
     
  38. smoothtennis

    smoothtennis Hall of Fame

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    See, that's exactly right. That is Jo11y's way. He is much smarter than that. Have you not been around to see the clever cycle? They hype starts up, where Jo11y is almost semi-pro level, then the balloon gets busted - we peeps all chime in with our surprise and dissapointment and Jo11y is never around at these times. Meanwhile his peanut gallery defends his complete and un-dying honesty. This just gets old.

    Yeah - well two years worth of this smelly storyline gets very old. This is one of those special well deserved cases. Once Sup started this, I became emotional, and now feel like one of those adicts that comes to the Jollygate Recovery Group. It's hard to stop the tears once they start flowing.

    LOL - you wish. Based on human nature, those wars will always be over there in that racket section of the forum.

    Sorry you had to witness all of this. But when the Poop hits the fan as they say, what do you think happens to the Poop? It flies baby, if flies EVERYWHERE getting on everybody. I have to go. Something just landed on my left cheek.
     
  39. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    This post is nothing short of once again, side-stepping, and putting the blame on someone/something else (in this case, the USTA), and giving the poster in question a pass, resutling in the same enabling of the behavior to go on.

    Even if he self rated at 6.0, I believe after an 0-16 record against players below 6.0, it would convince anyone they overshot their rating. Yet, the OP has continued to claim he is at 5.5 or above.
     
  40. jrod

    jrod Hall of Fame

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    See, the thing is a while back J011y posted some clips of him hitting. In all likelihood the clips were edited prior to posting to project what J011y considered to be a reasonably positive image.

    Now I fully understand the limitations of video in terms of reflecting a players true ability. Nevertheless, videos do not project something that simply isn't. When I saw these videos I came to my own conclusion about what level of player J011y was not. Perhaps if people go back and take a look for themselves so they can make their own assessment.
     
  41. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    ^^^I honestly don't think "editing videos" is a bad or good thing. Fact is, ESPN "edits" matches, to proivde the viewer the best shots, and "highlights" throughout the course of the match.

    I for one don't need to see someone missing shots, to know they in fact miss shots, because the truth of the matter is, everyone, including pros miss shots. That is not a big deal.

    That said, I enjoy his vids, and enjoy watching them when he posts, because he is providing the viewer with highlights, rather than watching someone chanse balls, get ready to serve, and all the other stuff that is boring as all hell to watch.

    And the bottom line is, his strokes although very powerful, are not at what I would consider even close to a 5.0 or 5.5 player.

    I never understood why so many posters were in such awe of his vids, and would come to the conlusion he was a "high caliber" open player.
     
  42. Jracer77

    Jracer77 Rookie

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    Why would anybody need to look at highly edited video to assess somebody's level when ACTUAL RESULTS are available? Geeeeeeez
     
  43. jrod

    jrod Hall of Fame

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    You're completely missing the point....The videos he has posted are ample evidence to suggest J011y is not a 4.5 level player. I suspect his record also reflects this but you can actually SEE him playing tennis in the video (highly edited or not).
     
  44. UnforcedError

    UnforcedError Rookie

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    The videos came out first and are probably what started the popping of the Jolly bubble. I think he posted them thinking they rocked and others would think the same. Before I saw them I read some negative comments and I thought "hmmm some people must not like Jolly". Then I saw them and I was stunned because in no way did they line up with how good I thought he was. Even when he is hitting the cover off the ball you could tell there are problems with movement and swing and on top of that he seemed to have no idea where the ball was going. Still the hype persisted for many because after all the videos are subjective. Then his tournament results were posted and the only thing left to debate is if he is a 3.5 or 4.0 . Still Dennis defends him, I'm guessing Jolly owns him on the courts and it helps him sleep at night to imagine Jolly is great at tennis.
     
  45. Jracer77

    Jracer77 Rookie

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    I've seen the videos. I said a couple of years ago they looked like 4.0 but I was just making an educated guess. It turns out he's around a low 4.0 probably from his results.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2009
  46. Fedace

    Fedace Banned

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    Yea,,,just like Roger Federer,,,,he just turns it up a notch when he needs it.
     
  47. jrod

    jrod Hall of Fame

    Joined:
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    A 4.5 level player has a number of key attributes that are easily identifiable that most (not all) lower level players do not possess. These include fluidity of footwork, movement, good balance and cleaen ball striking. The video's of J011y look nothing like any of the 4.5 level players I've ever played.
     
  48. hyogen

    hyogen Hall of Fame

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    how about a 5.0 player? interesting no one has voted 4.5 while several have voted 5 :eek:
     
  49. Sup2Dresq

    Sup2Dresq Hall of Fame

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    2 couldn't see the picture (aka results) from work and just voted 5.0 to be a smart poop. They said they did so on another thread.

    So you can throw out a couple I bet.

    P.S. I'm assuming you are talking about another thread. Confusion happens when you get old H.. or when you drive with pet rabbits on your lap.
     
  50. Xisbum

    Xisbum Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2008
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    Elvisland
    Just curious: and this delusion, if it is delusional, hurts the rest of us how exactly? :confused:

    If we don't like reading what he posts, can't we just not read it? :?

    Again, just askin'. I don't know Jolly from Adam and probably never will, but I do find his posts frequently entertaining - as I often find yours equally entertaining. Doesn't matter a bit to me what level he thinks he plays - or doesn't play. :|
     

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