Hitting Deeper

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by JustBeginning, Jan 5, 2009.

  1. JustBeginning

    JustBeginning New User

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    So I've been having problems with hitting balls too short on my forehand lately. Usually the balls land somewhere near the service line on my forehand but my backhand seems to be fine. I use a semi-western grip on my forehand. Any help would be seriously appreciated.

    -Tryouts are coming up in about two weeks quick and I'm afraid that if I keep hitting too short the other guys will start smacking my balls everywhere
     
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  2. tennisguyak

    tennisguyak Semi-Pro

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    They'd get kicked off the team for that. (sorry couldn't help myself)

    But on a serious note, try to extend your arm farther forward following impact with the ball.
     
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  3. adams_1

    adams_1 Semi-Pro

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    Make sure you keep hitting through the ball. Maybe get the contact point a little further out and don't lift up too much too early.
     
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  4. JustBeginning

    JustBeginning New User

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    Thanks for the advice guys. Also, would it help flailing my wrist a bit too? I've been trying it and it seemed like its been helping.
     
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  5. pro_staff

    pro_staff Semi-Pro

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    Don't think about changing your stroke fundamentals. Just aim the ball higher over the net. A simple thing like that can go a long way.
     
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  6. naylor

    naylor Semi-Pro

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    Another thought - possibly you're not low enough when you swing through your forehand (as in, you bend down from the waist and straighten, or you jump up as you swing through it).

    In both cases, the result is the same, as you swing through you just miss the sweetspot and hit somewhere between the middle and 3 o'clock (the lower half of the frame as it's horizontal and swinging up). So, you get less power through the shot, and either it catches the net or it gets over but loses depth.

    It should feel a bit like in a golf swing, the head rises after the hit as a result of the arm follow-through which brings the head and shoulders up and around. Hence, it feels like you're still looking at where the ball was at impact, even after you hit it. In tennis you see the same pictures, the eyes focused on the impact point, even though you've already hit the ball and your arms are swinging around in front of you.

    In golf, when your head and shoulders move up before you hit it (so you start looking at where the ball is going before you've hit it), your swingpath lifts and you end up topping the ball. Same in tennis, you miss the sweetspot and the ball doesn't carry as high or as far.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2009
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  7. phoenicks

    phoenicks Professional

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    I would advise you not to consciously or purposely flail your wrist, it's 1 of the most dangerous thing if you consciously do it. you should learn the whole swing itself 1st, below is an excellent Q&A from a website regarding the wrist motion in FH,


    Question: Should I use any wrist motion on my forehand?

    Answer: Turning your wrist as if you were turning a doorknob is just about the worst thing you can do to your ability to control your forehand. The somewhat popular notion of rolling over the ball to produce topspin is quite silly. Just a couple of degrees of tilt in your racquet face will readily send your shot into the net or long, and there's no way you can time the rotation of your wrist to put the racquet face at just the right angle during the few thousandths of a second that it meets the ball.

    One kind of wrist motion can be helpful, though: laying your wrist back as you prepare to swing, then letting it sling forward in response to the larger motions of your arm and body. This isn't a technique for beginners, but it becomes a natural and fairly safe way for more experienced players to generate additional racquet-head speed.


    source:http://tennis.about.com/od/forehandfaq/f/faqforehand6.htm

    now, if you want to hit with more depth and penetration, you are well advised to hit throught your shot more, straighten your racquet path, the straighter the better, and contact the ball sideway but close to your body, close meaning that if I were to take a video of you from the baseline, parallel and in line from the baseline on your forehand shot, the ball will be closed to you the moment you hit the ball from this perspective, therefore maintaining a distance is still very important, after all you don't want to jem yourself in your FH stroke. if you contact the ball further in front, you wont be able to swing throguht the ball effectively.

    and Lastly, you must stay as relax as possible, this will allow you to fluid and fast swing, generating depth and pace more easily.
     
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  8. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Geez, I'm so simplistic I thought maybe he should hit his forehands higher over the net to achieve more depth.
    Any grip, any racket, any form.
     
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  9. phoenicks

    phoenicks Professional

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    hitting higher over the net can guarantee you some depth, that's right,but but hitting higher over the net without "correct" technique can result in the advantage of depth being mullified, i.e ball sits up, and it'll still be smoked by your opponent. Or clearing net by a high margin, too much topspin but lands too short, hence becomes a perfect killing ball for your opponent as well.
     
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  10. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong.
    I can beat almost any top player IF I can hit all my shots to their deep line, within 1', even with my 60 year old strength.
    And when they decide to move in, if I can hit the same deep line, talking baseline, on my lobs, I will still beat them handily.
    Did you ever see McEnroe and Connors float their groundies deep with high clearance over the net?
    Do any of their opponents just crush it away because it wasn't spun topped or had very little pace?
    Guess what, a deep ball, hit slow or not spun, ALWAYS beats the crushed topspin ball that goes OVAL during the flight, but lands in 6'.
    Muscle is nice to have for sure.
    Skill and knowledge trumps muscle most times.
     
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  11. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    This is correct. The guy said that tryouts are in two weeks. That's not long enough to change his technique significantly. He's probably using a lot of spin without enough net clearance, which is causing the ball to drop short in the court. He should aim 4 to 6 feet over the net and those short sitters will become heavy shots that'll make his opponents think twice before attacking them.
     
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  12. naylor

    naylor Semi-Pro

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    Pretty much agree about the flailing - Fed releases his wrist as he hits the ball, but until you get as good as him, work first on getting the timing right on all the other parts of your swing before you start flicking the wrist.

    As for the other bits, I think I understand what you're saying - and I mostly agree. You get jammed when your right elbow stays close to your body - you lose width and therefore speed (you hit the ball only a lower-arm away from the body) and also you run the risk of hitting late (if your elbow stays tucked in behind your side, rather than come through).

    For me, the key is to make sure that the elbow is away from the body, so that as I swing through it can also come through and ahead of it - basically, it freewheels through rather than tucks in close. Frankly, I'm spending so many $$ in coaching to get this right, I bl**dy well hope it's the right move (OK, I know it's right, from those few but increasing times I've done it right ). So, where we perhaps diverge is that I think you still have to hit the ball in front of you - your elbow has stayed away from your side, has moved through in front of your body and in turn your lower arm, racket hand and racket swing through into contact point and then around the front of your body in the follow-through.

    As for staying relaxed through all that – please tell me the secret of staying loose (rather than strong-arming the ball stiffly). I promise that when I market it in my teaching manual I'll give you a (small) %age of my worldwide royalties!!! Can’t be fairer than that…
     
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  13. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Sometimes players in developing their topspin start to "short arm" the ball. Meaning they are not going through the ball enough and are bending at the elbow too much causing their racquet to brush the ball a bit too much.
     
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  14. JustBeginning

    JustBeginning New User

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    Ahh I think you guys pretty much nailed it about how I wasn't coming through the ball enough. My coach said I have a tendency to come up too early. You guys have any tips on how to break the habit? I'm trying to stop but its not working too well for some reason. Thanks for all the help so far :)
     
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  15. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I don't care how you hit the ball, even between your legs, but if it goes short consistently, HIT IT HIGHER over the net.
    You don't have time to change your stroke and still retain some amount of consistency with depth, pace, and spin.
     
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  16. phoenicks

    phoenicks Professional

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    LOL, elbow staying away is just more clearer than don't contact the ball too close to your body as ppl might misunderstood it in other way. Thanks for clarifying myself, I was struggling to explain this term in a clearer way when I was typing the reply to OP
     
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  17. phoenicks

    phoenicks Professional

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    that's the center of the problem, I think Bungalo Bill and naylor have just explain it to you, "coming up" too early is because your elbow stay close to your body, just try to contact the ball with a straight arm instead of bending your elbows, it will be easier for you to hit through the ball.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2009
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  18. phoenicks

    phoenicks Professional

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    just chill out in the court, like how you chill out in a bar or pub, LOL :)
     
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  19. JustBeginning

    JustBeginning New User

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    Ah alright. I never noticed the elbow thing. I'll try and see the next time I get out. Thanks guys
     
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  20. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    This is absolutely not true. Hitting higher over the net does not solve a technical issue. And this nonsense about "you dont have time to change your stroke?" Please....
     
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  21. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, first off know that doing this is not changing your stroke. It is simply getting your stroke to be longer through the ball.

    First let me explain that in our efforts to hit topspin many times we thing "more is better". We also tend to overuse certain parts of our body (such as the wrist or arm) to try to increase the spin revolutions of the ball without considering that hitting with topspin is a "SHARED" responsibility with other body parts.

    In other words, if you want to swing faster, you need to train the body to transfer weight faster, rotate the hips faster, turn the torso faster to help the arm accelerate.

    What I am loosely trying to say is when you want to speed up the swing, the arm is not the gas pedal to press. It is your legs, torso, and shoulders. From here, the arm takes the energy and accelerates because of what it is receiving. This is what is meant by "letting the racquet do the work" or "letting the racquet swing itself."

    Now for some things to consider:

    Many times when a player has too much brush and not enough hitting through the ball it is because of the following (feel free to add):

    1. Overrotation: This could come from a number of reasons. The head pulling away. A lack of involvement of the non-dominant arm. Lack of balance to move your angular momentum INTO the ball. And a lack of a reference such as thinking like you want to send your back shoulder through the ball while you swing thus keeping your rotation in check.

    2. Trying to do too much Windshield wiper technique. The WW technique is a part of your swing. It is not the only part of your swing to hit for topspin. All body parts that are involved in the kinetic chain assist you with hitting with topspin and each plays it role. Normally, when a player thinks more is better (probably because they had that one winner out of 100), they try to chase a mirage regarding their technique. If you are not hitting the ball with depth, it is because you are not hitting through it enough. Period.

    3. Chasing the mirage of wanting the ball to bounce real high and hearing from your opponent, "wow, that thing really kicked, I couldnt believe how high that bounced" to stroke your ego. If you dont have the foundation and training to hit like a pro, then dont think you are a pro. Work on developing a managable swing with decent topspin to help you become more consistent. Use topspin for what it was originally for, to help you keep the ball in the court, hit with power and depth, and improve your ability to rally in the point.

    4. Being trained to finish over the shoulder with the butt cap facing your opponent. When players concentrate on the finish rather than the process, short strokes usually are a result.

    Try reviewing the "pat the dog on the head" posts we have here on how to develop a sound forehand. Practice this over and over again with slow balls and hit for depth not for more topspin. Let topspin take care of itself. Let the racquet do the work and dont force it. Your job is to use your body to hit for topspin, stay balanced, send your energy through the ball, come from underneath the ball, and let the racquet do the rest.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2009
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  22. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    by far, the biggest problem causing hitting short is coming up too soon (becoming straight legged to soon). of course, the more severe version of this is hitting into the net. this is quite often caused by the player putting pressure on themselves and not trusting their stroke. tension causes stiffness..stiffness = no good.

    gearwise, it is simply amazing the number of people who string too tightly or use poly who shouldnt be using poly. stringing too tightly automatically causes the ball to land shorter in the court. often people then try and force the depth and the technique breaks down and/or they become injured
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2009
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  23. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Very good point, straightening the legs too soon is a real big one.
     
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  24. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    But hitting higher over the net does help, no? If you're hitting with a fair amount of topspin then the ball will bounce around the service line if you're still using a fairly flat trajectory.
     
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  25. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    thanks BB. lots of folks <not you> are far too stroke conscious rather than fixing the problems that occur w. the feet and lower body. if people dont get that stuff right, pretty strokes aint gonna work very well.

    people often confuse trajectory and topspin. they are two diff things. lots of better players hit high spinrate balls w. a flatter trajectory.
     
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  26. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    I know that some people hit plenty of topspin with a flatter trajectory. I was assuming that the OP doesn't have Safin-like power in my other posts.
     
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  27. phoenicks

    phoenicks Professional

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    hitting higher over the net helps IF and only IF the ball has a has enough RPM to have a good spin action.

    What good is a higher trajectory ball with very few action that becomes a sitter waiting to be smoked by ur opponent?
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2009
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  28. phoenicks

    phoenicks Professional

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    great point there, NBMJ !!! pointing out the often neglected aspect of strokes, you are actually a very good coach ( minus that faster swingspeed light racquet gospel side of you, LOL :) )
     
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  29. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    thanks for the comp....i think? ;) but i believe people should use the heaviest racquet they can swing fast w. good technique...i do believe batspeed is your friend. things i post get twisted all about around here all the time unfortunately. in spite of popular opinion, there are choices other than light racquets and heavy racquets.
     
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  30. ssjkyle31

    ssjkyle31 Semi-Pro

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    I think this also another good tip. Most new player also seemed to buy the lightest racket they can get their hand on.
     
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  31. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Absolutely. The feet and lower body are huge. I am glad you brought that up. I find the straightening up also true for twohanders. They stiffen up and a huge power outage occurs. I would eve go as far as aaying sometimes when they straighten up their stroke shrinks as well. They shortarm the ball pulling up at the elbow and extension is reduced.

    Great insight there.

    Yup. Love it. Your information will help a lot of players here.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2009
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  32. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    As usual, I have a different take.
    I know trajectory is flight path any spin and topspin is a forward rotating ball....
    It's not all that bad to brush up really high imparting lots of topspin and little forward speed. You can now hit consistent topspin lobs, you can hit low dipping angles. That means you can play effective singles and doubles.
    What's wrong with not having crushing groundies for winners?
    We're really talking only Boy's 18 or up to 5.0 Mens levels here anyways.
    I often hit with a guy who brush's the fuzz out of the ball with exteme western top, the ball goes oval and regularly lands around the service line. It bounces well behind the baseline. When anyone tries to move in on it, sliced or topped approach, he can hit topspin lobs off both wings that land 90% deeper than 6' behind the service line. Then, if the opponent chips but doesn't fully charge, he can angle a low topped short ball shorter than the service line.
    Seems pretty effective to me, in an unorthodox style.
    You guys and your "pretty" strokes just makes a pretty practice player who may or may not be an effective match player.
    This guy I mentioned above looks horrible when hitting, always hitting short.
    But try to play against him in a match, and you'll be really surprised.
    And don't forget, even for a decent volleyer, anyone under solid 5.5 would have trouble effectively volleying balls that are hit oval in wierd angles, heights, slow speeds.
     
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  33. bad_call

    bad_call Legend

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    i've hit with a player with similar skills. so fun to hit with...get to try a myriad of shots and use up the court. however one will get fatigued rather quickly.
     
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  34. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Didn't they say that about Borg....that he'd get fatigued quickly?
    This guy I hit with is a fitness nut. Runs, bikes, weights, sprints, jumps, the whole package.
    He just refuses to hit normal deep shots. He knows he can hit short angles. He knows he can hit topspin lobs.
    And just for spite, his favorite volley when all players are at the service line is the lob volley, mostly underspun, usually crosscourt. He's like magic there.
    Fortunately, he's not really skilled compared with us old farts who've been playing for 30 years.
     
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  35. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Huh? Yeah, none of us have ever seen anything you have described above. sheeesh! :-|
     
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  36. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Sorry, did I imply my mentioned opponent was unique to this forum?
    I didn't meant to.
    It was a side track to all the guys trying to straighten out the original posters shots, to make it traditional and average.
    We can all start with different roots and end up in one big group.
    It all works, not just one path to the end.
     
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  37. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    I have no idea what you are getting at here. The topic of this thread is hitting deeper...seems to indicate that means the guy wants help in hitting deeper. It's a very good thing to have the ability to control the depth of your hit.
     
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  38. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Understand or not, the basic tenet is if a player is consistently hitting too short, then raise the target so the ball clears the net more.
    I'm about the only one who mentions this.
    So why not throw in more theory here.
    Theory as in.....what kind of shots are effective in tennis? And the advancement of skill level.
    Don't be misled that only ONE way of hitting the ball, with correct technical strokes, can lead you to a winning game.
    Lots of sloppy winners out there.
     
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  39. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Well I guess I was one of them trying to make it "traditional" and "average."

    And thankfully you admitted it was a sidetrack. Why dont you stop drinking the Margaritas now and call a cab.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2009
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  40. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    We are not taling about different ways to hit a tennis ball. We are talking about things the body might be doing to limit a players ability to hit effectively. Unless you have had training in this area, I suggest you listen first.
     
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  41. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Why don't you get off your high horse, Bungalow man?
    The original post was NOT asking for technique change, but just to hit the ball deeper.
    YOU insist he change his technique. Some other's agreed. I would have just called a cab right then.
    But.....you ignore the basic tenet....you hit short, to cure it, you hit higher.
    Sometimes the crap in front of your face is invisible to you.
     
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  42. oneguy21

    oneguy21 Banned

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    Listen to him. TT policy forbids users from challenging words of wisdom from GOATS. :)
     
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  43. phoenicks

    phoenicks Professional

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    hello there, you begin to sound more and more like a 10y.o kid in front of com.
     
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  44. phoenicks

    phoenicks Professional

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    are you smoking weed??? Either you are a 10y.o kid or you are 1 cuckoo old fart.

    Believe me, I tried long time ago to hit higher,but without proper technique, it actually has less spin on it. Thing is, it's much easier to get deeper by hitting through and straightening out your racquet path.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2009
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  45. oneguy21

    oneguy21 Banned

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    Hit through the ball while aiming for a margin of at least 3 feet above the net.
     
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  46. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    What the hell is this...? I heard people do some crazy stuff when their high, but this is just whack.

    Your credibility/respect just went from 1% to -100%.

    Not cool
     
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  47. JustBeginning

    JustBeginning New User

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    Blah, about trying to just hit higher, usually the ball flies high but usually winds up landing near the service line since I still come up too early and don't go through the ball enough.
     
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  48. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    BallinBob....
    Read Bungalow's last 3 posts referring to me.
    All three are attempts to belittle my knowledge.
    "call a cab"
    "unless you had training"
    "sheese" none of us......
    I don't care the least bit about anyone's respect. I post to help you guys who don't have the motion, style, power, speed, training, and skill.
    Maybe Bungalow man can beat me really easily in tennis, but he knows no more than I do.
    How do I hit a ball deeper? Well up the trajectory is the FIRST response.
    How do I hit the ball harder? Well, swing faster and flatter.
    Some things are basic in all sports.
    All you guys are just learning your first sport in your lives. I've done 3 years varsity basketball, 2 years varsity football, Before I even thought about tennis.
    Don't you think I know a little more than you guys?
    You can think about what I say, or forget it, I don't care, but I've been around tennis at a higher level than almost anyone here for over 30 years.
    Respect? That's not important. Improving YOUR game is .
     
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  49. BetterTen

    BetterTen New User

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    "Belittling" knowledge that we post is not right. Disagreeing with posted knowledge, and explaining the reasons behind the disagreement is helpful to all of us.
    - We should "respectfully disagree" otherwise our posts will descend into useless shouting matches. Then everyone loses.
     
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  50. phoenicks

    phoenicks Professional

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    belittling your knowledge, now who starts this 1st?? who goes around boasting himself and putting other ppl's opinion down 1st?

    BB knows no more than you in tennis??? show me your coaching credibility then !!!

    We're learning the 1st sport in our lives?? what kinda silly assumption is that,and you think you know more than us, TT poster as whole just by playing a few years of varsity basketball and football, oh now I know you can go around intructing people just by playing football and basketball, so by your definition, A Rod and Le Bron can become a USTA coach in no time, well done !!!
     
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