hitting through the ball?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by ishiun, Nov 7, 2013.

  1. ishiun

    ishiun New User

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    ...........
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2013
    #1
  2. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Hit faster winners, and don't waste time with long rallies. That forces you to hit flatter.
    Or, drop string tension to below 45 lbs. Can't brush at that tension, forcing you to hit through the ball.
     
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  3. ishiun

    ishiun New User

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    Ive tried hitting harder shots but i just seem to brush the ball faster. I might try dropping the tension like you suggested. What's the reasoning behind not being able to brush with a low tension?.
     
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  4. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Low tension, if you brush, the long dwell time forces a double or triple hit, bouncing off the frame.
    High tension, the ball leaves the strings quickly, so you can brush all day.
    While brushing does add topspin, it takes energy, and you are always swinging in one direction, while the ball travels off angle to your swingpath. Not as efficient for energy input.
    As much topspin as Nadal hits, he uses about 52 lbs tension on a 100 sized racket.
     
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  5. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    No it doesn't. High speed video has shown how compression occurs during the dwell time, and there are no double or triple hits. The ball does not leave the strings fully and then go back and collide again. Strings and ball are in contact all through the dwell time, with the strings and ball both deformed. When the ball does leave once, it is gone forever.
     
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  6. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Yeah I don't think LeeD is correct about the double hits
     
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  7. ishiun

    ishiun New User

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    ah alright thanks. So would a low tension still help fix the issue if it doesn't double hit?
     
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  8. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Perhaps a difference in our swing speeds?
    When I was playing back in the late '70's, my main practice partner dropped string tension down below 50, on GreenYonex's. He extolled how great it was, how he got more control and more power, with easier swings.
    I tried it, as did the No.1 for his college, and our No.4 BATL 4.5 team player. We all just mishit with his frames, while hitting fine with our own.
    Guy with sub 50's tension ended up the next season as No.1 in D-3 colleges (two different), winning some Chinese Nationals (2), and several A/Open tourneys.
    Stanley quit tennis the following year, he never had any power, but was smart, redirected well, hit short angles, and could move like a deer.
    Steve made NorCal No.1 in 4.0's ten year's later.
    I followed the road lead by Stanley.
    With my advanced age and slow swing speeds, I could play quite well with Shroud's 25-30lbs tensions, with no mishits.
    Doubt any current top 18 boys can use that kind of tension, as they'd mishit all over the place.
    Fast swing speeds can use higher tension, especially if they like to brush the ball. Fast swing speeds can use lower tensions, if they tend to hit through the ball.
    We don't all hit like Suresh and Arche3.
    To even suggest that ONE tension works for everyone just shows you have the tennis intelligence of MMI.
     
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  9. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    I had some players who hit with full western grips who had this problem. Their racket swing had very little horizontal component at contact. The racket was mostly moving up instead of forward.

    The simplest solution is to hit less low-to-high at contact. If you can't do this while shadow swinging, you need to reassess your form.
     
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  10. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    OP,

    What grip do you use? Eastern, SW,...? Sometimes the grip you're used to forces you to brush up because that's the natural body mechanic. For example, if you use western, you're required to hit more out front, but that late in the swing path is already brushy, ie racket moving up and around as opposed to going (more) horizontally.

    With that said, try a more open face grip like extreme eastern or eastern and contact the ball more parallel with the body.
     
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  11. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Possibly you mean't "vertical" aspect to the swing?
    Horizontal means to hit a flat ball with little spin.
     
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  12. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Note how LeeD conveniently evaded the issue of being wrong about the multiple hits
     
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  13. ishiun

    ishiun New User

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    I have a grip between semi western and western. so your saying that hitting the ball late will force you to brush the ball in regards to a western grip?
     
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  14. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    What exactly did I mean by "mishits".....
    It means, the ball dribbled off the bottom of the frame on heavy topspin forehands....like multiple hits on ONE swing.
     
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  15. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I think it will, but that is not what you should rely on. You should first address your swing path.
     
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  16. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    And that used to happen on spin serves also.
    But alas, both you and Arche3 don't have fast swings, do you?
    While some of my second serves do bounce well over 6' high at the baseline.
     
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  17. ishiun

    ishiun New User

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    Alright I'll check into both thanks!
     
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  18. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    The theory says that the racket face should be almost perpendicular to the ground or slightly closed at impact. The topspin is supposed to come from the entire swingpath leading to contact, not a last instant brushing up.
     
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  19. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I also use a very strong SW grip, almost close to full W, but.....
    I"m old, injured, don't currently have a fast swing speed, so need to hit through the ball against anyone, and brushing just doesn't have the effectiveness it did 35 years ago, when I had a FAST swing speed.
    If you altered your swingpath as suggested, you have cured your problem. BUT, for lots of brushing forehand players, including some ATP pros, they need that tight tension to avoid the dribbler/double/triple hits, because of their fast, more VERTICAL swingpaths.
     
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  20. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Remember, it's been noted my 2nd serve can often bounce HIGHER than 6' high at the baseline.
    Probably, not Suresh NOR Arche3 can do that.
    Now of course, given a couple of sets of singles, I might lose to both Suresh and Arche3 in set play.
     
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  21. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    See he still won't admit he was wrong about double and triple hits but just tries to obfuscate the issue
     
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  22. ishiun

    ishiun New User

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    yup the racquet face is perpendicular at contact and im not abrubtly jerking up or anything i think i just tend to pull up at contact for whatever reason
     
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  23. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Suresh's, read post #14 please......
     
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  24. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Which is OK if that is what you want, like a topspin lob
     
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  25. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    So, Suresh, did you read post 14 yet. I know it's ancient history, but you know the drill....if you don't heed history, you are doomed to repeat the mistakes of your elders......:):)
     
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  26. ishiun

    ishiun New User

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    Sadly its not haha, im looking to drive through the ball more
     
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  27. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I already read it. Since you said multiple hits and not mishits in the first place, the post doesn't make sense. No one would say that they refer to the same thing.
     
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  28. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Do you even play tennis?
    A mishit is usually a dribbler off the racket strings, then the frame, causing MULTIPLE hits on the same swing.
    It happens mostly with careless fast swings.
    Can you say you have a fast swing?
     
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  29. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    No, that is not how most mishits happen. Very few mishits result in double hits.

    If you are talking about ball sliding down the strings and then leaving the strings in one continuous motion of the racket, then that is actually a valid shot and certainly not a double hit at all.
     
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  30. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    You guys with slow swingspeeds might not double hit or mishit often.
    Guys with fast swingspeeds often double hit, roll the ball off the strings and then the frame, and hit many mishits.
    I already said I can hit quite well with Shroud's 25lbs tension rackets, but that is groundies and volleys.
     
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  31. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Are you on drugs, Suresh?
    A mishit, ball sliding down the strings, then grazing the frame, IS a mishit, and goes higher than a topspin lob.
     
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  32. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    It is not a double hit, that is the point. Contacting both strings and frames in one continuous motion is not a double hit. The ball must leave the racket and be struck again to be called a double hit.

    In any case, your original claim was that there are multiple hits in the dwell time with lower tensions. That is just wrong, and no number of your evasive posts will change that.
     
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  33. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    No. It's the other way. Hitting the ball late (more parallel to your body) enables you to hit through the ball more, if you can manage with that sw/w grip. But like I said, that grip you use doesn't favor "late hitting" due to natural body mechanic.

    IMO, you have a few options to try:

    Change your grip-- the more open the "later" and more linear you could hit the ball.

    Keep the same thing but try a different hitting concept. Try some coach's method "up and across the body". Emphasize more on pulling the racket across the body.
     
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  34. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Suresh, you and Arche3 have slow swingspeeds. You cannot say your effect is the same as someone who it's with a high swingspeed.
    Both you and Arche3 are working on your serves, have average speed serves.
    You cannot possibly apply YOUR swngs with someone who can swing fast.
    Remember, does your second serves bounce head high at the baseline? Does Arche3's second serves bounce that high?
    And my twists bounce slightly higher.
     
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  35. bblue777

    bblue777 Banned

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    Lee, how do you know Suresh swings slow?

    And, who is Arche3?
     
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  36. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I swing pretty fast. I have one of the bigger fhs around. My serve is not up to the rest of my game.
    I dont double hit on fhs. My fhs make the big pop sound on most fhs.
    Wasn't this thread about fhs? LeeD keeps changing stuff. Lol.
     
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  37. ProgressoR

    ProgressoR Hall of Fame

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    OP, I would forget about string tension and that stuff, adjust either your swing path or grip or both. I see soooo many rec and club players try to hit with a SW grip and they dont have anywhere near strong enough mechanics and end up with weak shots with some spin that are just easy to deal with. In my view I would only use SW if you have the mechanics to back it up and get good strong arc on the ball good pace and good spin and control.

    So try a less extreme grip or adjust swing path.
     
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  38. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    LeeD just throws in irrelevant stuff whenever he is caught saying incorrect stuff so that the issue gets cloudy and no one knows what is being discussed any more. He has become very good at this since he is old and has been doing this for ever.
     
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  39. ishiun

    ishiun New User

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    ALright so based on the suggestions so far ill go try a less extreme grip and focus on my swing path thanks guys.
     
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  40. bblue777

    bblue777 Banned

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    That is quite a claim.
     
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  41. Muppet

    Muppet Hall of Fame

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    To hit flat and through the ball, there are four adjustments that you'll have to make to your form:

    1) Change to an eastern or modified eastern (halfway to SW) grip.

    2) W/ an eastern grip, you will need almost a straight take back. I'd use a narrow loop though, to keep the movement going. For a mod eastern grip, use a little more open loop (see Roger Federer clips.)

    3) Closed to neuteral footwork. Re-asess how close you will need to get to the ball.

    4) This step should take care of itself naturally. Use less windshield-wiper and finish over the shoulder.
     
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  42. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

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    What you are saying is you want to hit flat, a almost horizontal swing path.

    I learnt that by hitting against a wall... a short one too. You first will find your spinny ball not bouncing back to you enough. Then you will learn to go to the extreme and just hit as flat as possible to make the ball bounce back a 3 feet in front of you. You should be standing close to the baseline. I mentioned a short wall because a lot of people would resolve to just hitting it high up to reach the wall. A short wall or a marked spot on the wall would tell you instantly not to do that.

    Just keep hitting the ball as flat as possible. Never mind if it is too low sometimes. After a while you will be a feel for it what hitting flat should be. Back on the court, when your balls are going long all the time then start adding spin back. You need to go overboard in order to feel it first. Don't worry.
     
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  43. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Why? I have a good fh compared to most rec guys. And I do swing fast.
     
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  44. guitarplayer

    guitarplayer Guest

    I never want to hit through the ball......unless I want it to go out!
     
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  45. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Most players I play against say I swing very flat, horizontal, but my ball goes up and the heavy topspin brings it back into the court. I do pronate heavily on those.
     
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  46. bblue777

    bblue777 Banned

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    One's own perception could be very far from the reality though... just saying.
     
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  47. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Ok I swing slow and hit softly. Who cares.
     
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  48. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    When I was learning how to flatten out shots my friend told me to imagine I was hitting through 4 tennis balls instead of 1 and it worked for me

    I don't think changing string tension should be your go-to solution here.
     
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  49. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    I hit a very heavy topspin rally ball. If I want to flatten it out, I envision "brushing side-to-side" on the ball as opposed to brushing up on the ball.

    That causes my swing path to go from very vertical to very horizontal. Very effective for me.
     
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  50. ishiun

    ishiun New User

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    Sounds interesting, ill try it out next time.
     
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