hitting through the ball?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by ishiun, Nov 7, 2013.

  1. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    borg looks more like a semi western. clearer view in this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AJD09hkLFo
    good vid. very modern form.
    seems like he has some kind of weird 'gasguet' thing going on with his grip.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  2. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    Great video. Still looks E. to me but admittedly hard to see exactly. Borg's grip seems a bit more E. than even Fed's.

    The form is extremely modern. He doesn't lay his wrist back as much as Fed and drag the racquet into contact to quite the same degree, but all the parts are there. Did you catch the reverse finish on a shot where he was pulled out wide?
     
  3. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    The whole thing hinges on this "bit" of movement. If it is not there, what the site is saying and what we are saying here are not compatible at all.

    I do see some motion of the wrist here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20cfdNS0DMs

    The motion is small and compliments the motion of the lower arm. It is as if the lower arm is doing the work but the wrist adjusts slightly in concord with it
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  4. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Hi Fellas, with your vids you are proving my point.

    First off it is arguable if there is any wrist movement. Certainly parallax errors could be the source of this so called wrist movement. And if there is it is not conscious at all.

    And even if i grant movement, as suresh says it is a "bit". Seriously with such little movement if at all, what are we producing something like 2-3 more rpms? And factoring in the grip well maybe 1 more rpm? So maybe technically small grips produce more spin, but PRACTICALLY there is no difference.

    Coupled with the stability of larger grips and the less chance of te, i just dont get it.
     
  5. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Ha ha. I would agree here. I watch this guys vids and kind of cringe. I just think a lot is wrong.

    BUT, today i tried the find the ball and pull back technique, and while i have some work with muscle memory, this technique was a frickin eureka moment,. Long story but my back hand is a heavy pace ridden penetrating shot, and the forehand NEVER was. Today it was using the technique.

    And i wasn't consciously moving my wrist :)
     
  6. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I used to use a 4/8 grip which is my correct size as confirmed by multiple methods. But I switched to a 3/8 because I found that for hitting topspin, there are minute adjustments that need to be made when switching from say neutral (continental) or backhand to forehand SW grip during the course of a rally. These adjustments are easier when the grip size is a little smaller.

    On the other hand, I think a smaller grip size is not that good for the E backhand for a 1 hander.

    The "bit" you mention might actually make or break the stroke.
     
  7. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Main reason I use a 4 5/8th is for volleying, a somewhat skill I seem to obsess over, and make more important than any other part of my game.
    Oh, because I choose lighter weight rackets, a 4 3/8 grip seems to twist in my hand during mishits and returning hard serves...and volleying.
    As we all know, volleying is basically redirection of the incoming ball, not a swing that imparts the energy of the shot.
    I"ve hit with a 5 1/8 grip lately, and it hits well, nice topspin (not excessive), nice slice, very solid, no twisting.
     
  8. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Good point. I do have a one hander but use a sw mostly and an extreme eastern sometimes. Maybe i have an advantage. Essentially with my square handle i just have 4 bevels. Finding grips with my 5 1/4+ grip is easy.
     
  9. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Same here except for the light racket deal. I recently added some og to my racket and like it even bigger than before. Long story but i have to have a solid feel. The grip helps. I hit with my coaches youtex prestige pro and it had a small grip. Yikes. Though i blasted winners with it, it had that tinny hollow feel i get from the "modern" light weight rackets i have tried. Yuck. Though i did appreciate on some level the maneuverability, i quickly went back to the pog......

    And fwiw you have great volleys.
     
  10. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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  11. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Yeah, you find zealots expounding their weird theories on every subject known to mankind...:):)
    For you guys near Berkeley. Famous story told to me, while his older boss just raised his eyebrows and smiled. New owner of the tennis shop I frequent tells me to swing a 1/4, or 3/8 size grip, on the racket's I like the color of. Shroud might know the shop, on SolanoAve., Albany. He tells me he hits a big forehand, and a huge serve. I laugh it off as ...youngster knows little, expounds much...:)
    Couple months later, he shows up at the courts. Has nice 4.0 level strokes, about par with mine and Shouds. He's 6'1" tall, maybe 215, very solid, and I expect some real serving.
    Ha ha, it's slower than mine. AND, with a tiny grip. No, he didn't push it in, but neither did he threaten 115 mph, or 100 on his top/slice first serves.
    Grip size is in your head. If you hit hard, you hit hard with any gripsize. If you are inconsistent, like me, you are inconsistent with any grip size.
    But, if you like to volley, use a bigger grip....bigger than 3/8th anyways.
     
  12. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Hey LeeD why did the surf site that I found based on your suggestions refer to you as a loudmouth? I would never have guessed that about you from your posts here.
     
  13. Shroud

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  14. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Even if the tape added 1/16, it is still smaller than the most common grip sizes.
     
  15. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Loudmouth!
    Even my g/f calls me that, expecially at the windsurf rigging area.
    Yes, I expound endless, useless theories.
    Yes, I am the opposite of that postman who ends up shooting a bunch of people because he kept it inside himself his whole life.
    And believe me, not only was I trained to exterminate masses, I actually seeked out more information, read up on the subject, amassed a huge inventory, and keep it stored and maintained away from anything I access currently.....:):)
    But as Shroud knows, I'm really a nice guy, out for an easy good time, and relaxation is key in life.
     
  16. rkelley

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    Federer's wrist flexes through 90° in the space of about 2 feet of racquet motion, probably something like 100 ms. That's not a bit of motion. That wrist flexing is a big component of the through part of his stroke. With different grips there would be different components of flexing, radial or ulnar deviation, and pronation.

    The key to all of this as a player is to understand the desire swing path that you're trying to create, and some key points like dragging the racquet into contact, pulling up and across, and maintaining the plane through the contact zone.
     
  17. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Is that motion a motion of the wrist relative to the forearm or mostly a motion due to supination of the forearm?
     
  18. rkelley

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    The 90° number is just flexing of his wrist. As noted earlier, the flexing of the wrist is more prominent for creating the through component with Fed's E. grip. More W. grips are going to have different amounts of flex, and radial or ulnar deviation.

    Pronation of the forearm is an independent motion, which is also very important. Pronation mostly creates spin, not the through component however.

    I really think for the playing perspective though is that you just trying to create a swing path regardless of the grip that you're using.
     
  19. Valdez737

    Valdez737 Rookie

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    Fix your swing is that simple Messing with the Strings, Grip, Racket etc cant fix a problem thats all technical. Get a lessons or two.
     
  20. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    It's a concept that she's demonstrating and the only reason she's talking about a straight track is allow the player to get a feel for extending forward. If someone is trying to hit through the ball more simply concentrates on hitting the ball on a 'straight track' it's never completely going to be on a straight track because people's arms are a fixed length but it does help them extend through the contact point. It's a progression. You can't just say to someone 'Hey just copy what you see in this video'. Learning doesn't work like that.

    It's the same concept as in this video: https://onlinetennisinstruction.leadpages.net/tfb-video-3/
     
  21. Topspin Shot

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    Are we really going to revive a debate that ended so long ago?
     
  22. JohnYandell

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    rk,

    I have to disagree that there is 90 degrees of forward wrist flexion in Fed's forehand. That is the extreme. His wrist reaches neutral on very, very few balls. The evidence shows overwhelmingly the opposite. It is usually laid back 45 degrees or more. And it stays that way well after the contact as well.

    Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying.
     
  23. JohnYandell

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    rk,

    If by pronation you mean the rotation of the hand arm and racket, correct. But the 3D studies Brian Gordon did shows there is no independent pronation in the technical biomechanical sense, that is, rotation of the forearm from the elbow down independent of the larger arm rotation.
     
  24. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    I didn't realise that there was a debate. There is a lot of confusion in this thread though about hitting through the ball and transitioning a player from one way of hitting to driving through the ball more.
     
  25. dknotty

    dknotty Semi-Pro

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    That's an excellent video and he says exactly the same thing as Blair, but in a different way.
     
  26. rkelley

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    I think you're misunderstanding what I said.

    The 90° I was referring to is the range that Fed's wrist travels through, from most extended position to most flexed position - at least what I'm seeing the videos I'm looking at. It's the relative change of position.

    It sounds like you're referring to the absolute positions. As far as absolute position I agree with what you're saying. His wrist is laid back - i.e. extended - before contact so that the racquet makes about a 90° angle with his forearm. After contact his wrist is pretty close to neutral - racquet and forearm in line.

    So I think we're saying the same thing. But you're the one getting paid to do this. I'm just a guy trying to learn more. Am I understanding this correctly?
     
  27. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    Could you expand on this more if you have time? I'm not quite understanding. Thanks.
     
  28. Egoista

    Egoista Professional

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    Just imagine you are hitting without trying to hit
     
  29. JohnYandell

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    rk,

    The range can be up to 90 degrees or even a little more on the severe laybacks on inside balls. So yes I think we are in agreement on that.

    The issue is always when this occurs and especially whether there is a snap as in a conscious contraction to flex forward. That kind of "snap" doesn't happen in my opinion and if I understand Brian Gordon correctly on some or even most balls the muscles are actually used to some degree to reduce the amount and/or the speed of the flexion and to hold the wrist back in the laid back position. This is one reason why you see the laid back alignment well after contact. The flex out there toward the end of the followthrough is part of the relaxation, deceleration phase.

    The complication in the understanding is that the forces of the swing naturally tend to create flexion. That change, when it occurs, speeds up the racket but as a dependent movement.
    As said above players often actually constrict this to maintain the right racket head alignment but say on a short crosscourt the wrist might make it to neutral.

    So yes the movement of the wrist can add to racket speed but as a consquence of other movements and the wrist movement if controlled at all is to prevent this from happening too fast or going too far.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
  30. JohnYandell

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    rk,

    Brian Gordon did a groundbreaking study of elite college players that I helped faciliatate. What it showed was that the wiper action came from the forward or internal rotation of the upper arm in the shoulder joint. There wasn't a change at the elbow where the forearm rotated additionally or independently.

    "Pronation" technically is that forearm rotation only although the term has come into wide use as a description of the entire larger rotation.

    My English translation of all this terminology in describing the wiper is hand, arm and racket rotation.
     
  31. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    I believe many club level players do employ pronation in their forehands. It's a motion that they actually need to be taught not to do because it causes the racket to roll over the ball in the hitting zone. Therefore, it they hit a little late, the racket face will be open, and they will send the ball long. If they hit a little early, the racket face will be closed, and they will put the ball in the net. It would be interesting for Mr. Gordon to do a study analyzing the biomechanics of club players and how they differ from those of elite players. I bet he would in fact detect varying degrees of pronation in many of the club players.
     
  32. RetroSpin

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    The motions leading into impact are complex. I can't comment on what top college players are doing, but the analysis at tennisspeed shows to my satisfaction that top pro players do pronate just prior to impact. Pronate in the biomechanical sense of rotating their wrist/forearm medially. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Kvh73d_m09Y/UR5mYNFLnFI/AAAAAAAAAdQ/Jvv7tMAQVO8/s1600/B98+-+F007.jpg

    There is internal shoulder rotation ealier in the forward swing. I agree with John Yandell about the wrist extension. Typically, top players are in extension at impact, although it can vary depending on the shot. Certainly none are using flexion, ie flipping, to generate pace.

    I can see that ISR could be used to turn the racquet over through impact, but it does appear taht Fed and Nole use pronation instead. In this pic, you can see their elbows do not rotate as they would if ISR were being employed.
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fzm8a7pWzBw/UR5occxlonI/AAAAAAAAAg4/O9ZE7R_3kIw/s1600/B98+-+F008.jpg

    Finally, as poster Julian has pointed out, topspin is largely generated by going from an ulnar deviated wrist to radial deviation. You can see that in the above pic. Interestingly, this ties in to Oscar Wegner's teaching about whipping across the ball. When you whip the racquet face across the ball, you are using your body and arm adduction somewhat but most of the acceleration is coming from the transition from ulnar to radial dviation.
     
  33. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Itf presentations

    Greetings,

    you may consider reading
    http://en.coaching.itftennis.com/med...014/114014.pdf

    Pages 17-21
    Julian W.Mielniczuk
    Bedford,MA,US
    USPTA
    Team Babolat

    PS The presentation referenced above is for Level 3 of ITF-basically a high performance course by IFT.
    I believe it was written/rewritten around 2007.
    References to papers by Bruce Elliot do describe 3D results.
    Numbers quoted in the reference cover a professional spectrum (with one exception-Nadal till 2012).
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
  34. JohnYandell

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    Retro,

    Anything is possible... But one thing that is very difficult is deviation of the wrist in either direction with the wrist laid back. That can come into play on the serve on some balls, but in my view not on the forehand particularly on the more extreme grips.

    It would be interesting to have more 3D data but the Tennispeed footage like the footage on Tennisplayer is qualitative not quantitative.
     
  35. RetroSpin

    RetroSpin Hall of Fame

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    I think the degree of pronation, if any ok?, is small. There is a lot going on biomechanically, and it is difficult to isolate individual movements. Still, the player has to establish the vertical face angle somehow, and I would argue, based on my current limited understanding, that pronation is the way they do it. I can see this may be an area where the elite pro FH and the FHs of even good players may differ. The very best may have the ability to make adustments using pronation just prior to impact that ordinary mortals do not.

    Regarding the quantitative versus qualitative data, you are probably aware there is a tremendous parallel dispute going on in the golf world. It turns out that generating accurate 3D data is far more difficult than one would imagine, and even then, results are open to criticism, eg because of what was measured and what was ignored.
     
  36. RetroSpin

    RetroSpin Hall of Fame

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    I couldn't get the link to work.
     
  37. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    you mean that the forearm rotation comes from shoulder IR?

    but how about a double bend FH? isn't there independent pronation?

    after all ISR with a bent arm does this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCpQjkxiNYY
    and is not really rotating the forearm around ist Long axis.
     
  38. JohnYandell

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    That's not what Brian's measurements show or what I see in the footage. The rotation is unitary of the hand arm and racket.

    In a way it's an abstract point--the rotation from the intentional point of view comes from moving the hand.
     
  39. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Link

    It is partially my fault
    Please follow the instruction below to the letter

    Please put the following stringinto the URL line
    xxxhttp://en.coaching.itftennis.com/media/114014/114014.pdf
    Please remove xxx
    Please click ENTER
    It loads very long time.
    Sometimes it gives an ERROR message bit it does link


    If any problems please find my E-mail address via google
    Julian Mielniczuk

    PS The file is large-around 12.3 MB
    There are 2 enviroments this file can be loaded into:
    1.a PC Window based
    2.an ipad

    There are two enviroments it does NOT load succesfully:
    1.Galaxy 3 Notes
    2.Blackberry
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2013
  40. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Another way to link

    please go to
    http://en.coaching.itftennis.com/co...e know whether one of links does work for you
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2013
  41. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    Exactly. He's just more structured with his explanation, but its the same concept and same technique. Both of them are trying to get the person to get a feel for the racquet moving forward.
     
  42. dknotty

    dknotty Semi-Pro

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    Yup, I had a habit of hitting across the the ball rather than through it. Now that I tend to hit through it, the difference in the quality of my shots it's vastly improved. Chalk and cheese.
     
  43. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    ITF presentation-HAND FLEXION

    An ITF presentation quoted above has a very interesting Page 19

    "Contributors to Racket Velocity at Impact"
    .....
    Hand Flexion ----> Racket---->15-20%
    Hand Flexion (side) ----> Racket---->5-10%

    Takahashi 1997"

    Julian W.Mielniczuk
    Bedford,MA,US
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2013
  44. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Questions

    There are a lot of interesting questions here:

    1.Is "hand Flexion" mentioned above the same thing as Wrist flexion (the phrase used by other posters?
    Probably yes
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2013
  45. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    This should have been the thread closer. A lot of people seem obsessed with topspin creation; topspin is a tool for controlling your shots, not the end goal. Unfortunately it appears to be the way the game's being taught. I see a lot of wrist problems in the future.
     
  46. rkelley

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    Thanks John. I'd be interested in what your (or others) research would say regarding the effect of grip on the above study that you site. What I think (which may or may not be true) is that a player like Federer who is using something like an E. grip is going to get most of the vertical component of the racquet's motion at contact via pronation - turning of the forearm - not from ISR. ISR comes after contact to slow the racquet down. However a player suing a more W grip would get more of the vertical component at contact (most I think) via ISR.

    This potentially conflicts with the study. Did the study say anything about grip? How about arm structure at contact (straight arm vs bent arm fh).

    It's not a study, but when I watch the youtube super slo mo videos of Fed's fh I see almost all pronation at contact, not ISR. Someone like Djokovic, OTOH, who has a fairly W grip, I see mostly ISR at contact.
     
  47. Lukhas

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  48. Fintft

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    But aren't you going to get the former pro's trajectory if you arm is extended at contact?
    Why need to worry about rolling the ball vs brushing etc?
     
  49. JohnYandell

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    Update:

    So I talked to Brian today about the hi tech coaching conference we are organizing with USPTA and asked him about these issues.

    Turns out I remembered only partially correctly. On the straight arm forehand there is little to no pronation. That's crystal clear in the high speed videos if you can go frame by frame as on Tennisplayer. But on the double bend there can be pronation, especially if the elbow is closely tucked to the body.

    In either case though the unitary rotation of the arm and racket driven by the upper arm--internal shoulder rotation--is the main force.

    On the serve, interestingly, Brian reminded me that pronation is often a negative contributor to velocity having to do with racket face alignment...
     
  50. Lukhas

    Lukhas Legend

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    My point is that I think club players have the tendency to misinterpret what the pros are actually doing. The "rolling vs brushing" isn't part of my point; I just added the source so people know where it comes from. It doesn't mean I agree or not with the article in which the picture was originally posted.
     

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