Homeschool for competitive tennis player in a non academy environment

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by ac10splyr, Dec 12, 2012.

  1. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    When I was in business I loved competing against the Harvard and Yale grads. They weren't "hungry". I usually won. Those coming from a small state college, or urban Catholic college- I was in a dogfight- and took a lot of lumps.
     
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  2. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Can you run those probabilities by us again?

    Men's and women's tennis each take 2 or 3 a year, is the understanding I have
     
    #52
  3. kme5150

    kme5150 Rookie

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    #53
  4. 10istalent

    10istalent New User

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    Here is an article which I posted a while back measuring the recruiting of ivies: home vs traditional schooling. My daughter has a good friend who is taking Laurel Springs and trains not at an academy. The mom complains that she cannot find enough tennis for the amount of money she is willing to spend each day.
     
    #54
  5. 10istalent

    10istalent New User

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    #55
  6. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    Admissions, not $. Schools like Stanford might not give you any scholarship money, but I'm guessing if my girl is top 20-50 in the US (with good grades), they will give her admission, but no scholarship money.
     
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  7. hhollines

    hhollines New User

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    "McEnroe grew up in an excellent tennis area with a prestigious after-school academy (Port Washington TA) nearby. He was also wealthy. It is easier for certain players to express what they feel is best when it was all at their disposal locally. Things are more complicated when you don't have top-notch training nearby or the proper funds to travel and train."

    Not sure I follow. How does this differ from anyone else? Tennis is insanely expensive, for everyone. Sure, some have more money than others but I don't know many poor families that can afford the hourly costs for a coach, clinics, hitting groups and/or travel for tournaments.

    As for the "excellent tennis area," I've been saying that for a long time. The better tennis environment you live in, the better your chances (back to Malcolm Gladwell's point). In fact, if you are in a weaker section, you likely spend more money constantly having to travel outside your state.

    I'm not judging anyone regarding whether or not to home school, attend an academy or not, as it's a personal decision. However, for our family, we just think there's tremendous benefits to attending school and I have no illusions that my daughter is going to make a living at tennis (if it happens, god bless her) but our primary focus is always education and trying to equip our daughter with the tools to be a productive and happy member of society and I think the daily interaction at school (the good, the bad, and the ugly) is all part of the development skills required for the real world (again, just our perspective).
     
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  8. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    The article says his other 3 children are being schooled by retired teachers who were probably part of the regular schooling system. Unfortunately, each parent searching for professional teachers who honed their skills in a regular school is a highly inefficient system, like every one hiring police officers for their own home. Also, it seems to me that the daughter who went to Harvard is unlikely to be a stay-at-home mom like her mom, so I don't understand the point here. Was the "life lesson" that the daughter should stay at home and home school her children? Shouldn't moms be empowering daughters to think beyond traditional roles? My mother was a stay at home mom and did school homework with me every day almost till the 7th grade, but that was because she came from a time when education for women was not valued - her sisters never finished school. She tried to become a teacher, but circumstances were not favorable. But she always encouraged the next generation of girls to go out and work.

    There is also the practical matter of science labs, which are not to be underestimated. Again, I don't know what she is studying at Harvard, but the global competition in science and engineering is very deep. The foundations for it begin as early as the 8th grade. It is not just a matter of labs, but also the grasping of difficult concepts. My son's AP Bio book is a 1200 page college textbook, and I went nuts trying to read it. But he says his teacher guides them through the book and it becomes manageable when he then studies on his own. I could never teach him this subject.

    The author also forgets how many special needs students and those from very difficult demographics have to be catered to by the public education system. Just pretending that they don't exist does not solve the problem.
     
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  9. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Yes. Didn't know we were talking about top 20-50. I think top 20-50 girls could probably be admitted and walk-on wherever they want, if the academic stats are anywhere near the lowest 25th percentile of each respective school. Top 20-50 also would have a chance for a scholarship at Stanford.

    You are a lock to be a Stanford parent.
     
    #59
  10. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Being poor is also a great way to get into top schools with only reasonable grades.

    It is the families in the middle between poor and rich that have limited choices.
     
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  11. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Your comment leads me to believe that you do not include the Ivies/Stanford/MIT among the "top schools".

    All these schools specifically state that admissions is not based on financial status.

    Or you have inside information that these statements are not truthful
     
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  12. TCF

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  13. Chemist

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    It's really tough to get really good in tennis without spending $$$. So, if a really good tennis player from a poor family is also good in academics, this kid would surely have better chance of getting even better in tennis in college.

    I would add "with boys" after "families" in your last sentence. I wish I have daughters...
     
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  14. Chemist

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    But race does play a role in admission. I read an article on NYT recently that Ivies and most top schools have a lower admission standard for minority kids (African American, Hispanics, and Native American). However, the standard is significantly higher for Asian Americans. One of the driving forces for my boy to train and play hard, while trying his best to get A's on his APs and Honors, is that he understands the only way for him to get into an Ivy is to get a spot on the tennis team.
     
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  15. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I searched the NYT, but couldn't find that article. Grateful if you could post a link

    EDIT: If the Ivies do have lower admission standards for minorities, it could be their way of assuring continuing access by Whites to the halls of higher learning......after all, there are lots of projections that Whites will be in the minority by 2040.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2012
    #65
  16. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    Well, at least you don't have to worry about school shootings, jeez. What an awful day. Heartbreaking.
     
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  17. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    No words can describe this tragedy.
     
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  18. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Yup. This is the kind of thing which makes you afraid of sending kids to school.

    But the real problem is mentally unbalanced people who have access to guns. If they did not have school children to fire at, they will shoot people in the mall. Does that mean we shouldn't go to malls?

    Well, maybe just do all our shopping online.
     
    #68
  19. TennisNinja

    TennisNinja Hall of Fame

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    1. You're implying homeschooled kids travel more and have more varied experiences. Nobody gives a sh*t if you went to Paris, Hong Kong, and Amsterdam unless you can demonstrate how those were meaningful experiences in your college application. Put only "Traveled to Paris" on the application and the admissions officer is just going to laugh that you wasted a line on your application. Like I said earlier, are home schooled kids going to be able to take part in organizations such as DECA and JSA? Nope.

    I also stated this earlier: "You have to understand that if you're applying to any of the elite colleges in the nation, for every person that is accepted, numerous others with the same or similar academic qualifications are rejected. It is a crapshoot at that level." Clearly I do understand how hard it is to get into the top colleges in the nation.

    2. "A successful Ivy League applicant starts at a young age with parents stuffing their resumes with volunteer work, projects, travel, unique skills and hobbies, and internships." Young age? Not necessarily. As for everything else, you still need to demonstrate how those things have changed you as a person. Do 50 "cool" things but how are you going to articulate to the admissions officer how those are actually meaningful activities that have affected you as a person? How are you going to show your drive and passion for those things? Your essays only allow you to talk about 1 or 2 "passions", and saying "Tended and cultivated my own garden for 5 years" sounds much less impressive than "Co-founded Gardening Club at my high school".

    "I used internships as one example of things that can not be faked." I never said they were faked. I was saying that very, very few high schoolers are going to obtain a legitimate internship prior to applying for college. That fact does not change.

    4. I never said that standardized tests weren't important. I was just saying that for 2 students with identical credentials, unless the homeschooler has additional testing (like what you mentioned with extra rec letters and extra SAT II's), it's probably a safer bet to go with the student who went to a regular school.

    "Fact is homeschooled kids do just fine in life. There is more to life than an Ivy League education and a $80,000 job. Some folks are very happy living a more rounded life and making a little less money." I certainly wasn't saying you can't succeed in life as a homeschooled kid. There are also kids who do "just fine" going to ____ mediocre college. The question is, do your kids want to settle for "just fine"? Some people are less driven than others and there is nothing wrong with that.

    FYI I don't go to any Ivy.

    This is so false. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Need-blind_admission I know the link is from wikipedia but it is the easiest way to show how many top schools do not factor in financial aid in determining admission.

    This is very, very true and anybody who doesn't believe it is in denial.

    Princeton: http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S11/80/77I23/index.xml
    Duke: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/04/20/mismatch
    Naval Academy: http://marinecorpstimes.com/news/20...ontroversial-professor-settle-lawsuit-012611/ http://www.navytimes.com/news/2009/06/navy_diversity_062109w/
     
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  20. Chemist

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    Sorry. NYT article may be for another topic. Attached are a few links that are related to admission to a top school. It appears that tennis will help both Asians and white middle class kids get into a top college.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/secrets-of-dartmouth-admissions-office-2012-10
    http://thedartmouth.com/2012/02/13/news/discrimination
     
    #70
  21. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    That is well known. What is less known is that there is affirmative action for boys going on. Seems otherwise there will be more girls on campus if admission is based only on merit.
     
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  22. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    I guess I am in denial Ninja because I don't believe the Ivies have a lower admissions standard for minority applicants. My understanding is that Class Rank and SAT are converted to a raw score called the AI. There is a floor level of the AI, under which they will not admit any student. Race is a factor in admissions, but there is one standard. Another very significant factor is legacy (if parent went there) and how much parent contributed.
     
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  23. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Thanks for the links.

    The experience I have had is that each Ivy coach has a certain number of "slots" at the admissions office. It varies by sport and school, and can vary year to year.

    So, for example, if the baseball team has seven slots, the baseball coach can ask the admissions office for favorable treatment of seven applicants who play baseball. Each of these applicants has to meet applicable Academic Index standards of course. If the coach would really like an eighth player to skate through the process, too bad, that applicant would have to take his chances on admission along with every other applicant.

    I don't know how many slots are allocated for tennis, but I would guess two or three. Great for any kid who is one of those. If not, whatever the kid's race, I don't think tennis would help in the admissions process more than any other activity would.
     
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  24. TCF

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  25. TCF

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    Deleted....not worth arguing with that poster.
     
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  26. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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    Ha, I do that all the time myself, start posting and go nahhhhhh not worth the time.
     
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  27. TCF

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  28. TennisNinja

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    A non athlete who meets the minimum AI will probably not get accepted. Same with non legacies.

    This also applies to race. The bar is higher than average for asians, and lower for hispanics and blacks.

    "Rod Bugarin, a former admissions officer at Wesleyan, Brown and Columbia, said: 'The bar is different for every [racial] group. Anyone who works in the industry knows that.' "

    What is stopping someone from saying they were part of _____ clubs and volunteered for _____ organization?

    There's a thing called morality.
     
    #78
  29. BHiC

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    When you say home school, are you including all forms of school that take place at home, such as online schooling, or just talking about homeschooling where the parent is the teacher? Because if online schools can be included, then your last sentence is not necessarily accurate. I stated previously that I go to an online charter school, and I am a member of the National Honors Society. I don't know if it would apply for the groups that you mentioned, but my state has a law that states if a school that you attend does not offer an extra circular activity, then you are allowed to go to the nearest school that does offer that activity. An example is, even though I don't attend the local High school, I could still play tennis for them if I wanted to because my school does not have a tennis team.

    I have no experience with pure homeschooling, so I cannot comment about the exact rules governing that.
     
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  30. TCF

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  31. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    It doesn't matter for the SAT. The scores will be the same.

    It is not that easy to cheat on the college admissions.

    In fact, I was told by someone who "coaches" college applicants that even if you leave it blank, they can guess from other things. It might be increasingly difficult due to mixed-race marriages and all that, but it can be done. Of course some might get away with it.

    Even in states where the box is prohibited by law, schools try to guess, because a narrow use of diversity has been upheld by the courts.

    Remember, it is not just the admission form. You lay your own life bare for the FAFSA, producing tax returns, property details, etc.
     
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  32. TennisNinja

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    Sorry, I was talking about pure homeschooling.

    Your passive aggressive comments are so cute ;)
     
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  33. BirdieLane

    BirdieLane New User

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    I clicked on a few Ivy commit lists on TRN. Here's a homeschooled Brown commit:
    http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp?id=385417
     
    #83
  34. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I have no idea if this person matriculated at Brown, but he doesn't show up on any tennis roster.
     
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  35. Chemist

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    I would tend to believe that he was admitted to Brown, but not recruited; and he chose not to walk on. Brown does have a two star recruit on the team, likely a walk-on.
    http://www.brownbears.com/sports/m-tennis/2012-13/roster
     
    #85
  36. MarTennis

    MarTennis Rookie

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    James Blake...

    ...got into Harvard. I believe he was perfect on the math portion of the SAT. Did he get in because his father is black? Or his math score, tennis, or the fact that his brother was already at Harvard?
     
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  37. TennisNinja

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    None of those factors alone will get you in. You don't get in "only because of ______ single factor", but that single factor can play a significant role in admissions.
     
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  38. Chemist

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    Found a story about this kid. "Being home-schooled is a mixed bag," said Nath, a top student who has been accepted to attend Ivy League school Brown University, though he hasn't made a final determination yet. "You get greater flexibility when you're home-schooled and I'm in a great online program. But you miss the social stuff, like going to dances and things like that. Playing high school tennis since his 8th grade would surely be great "social stuff" for him.

    http://postbulletin.com/news/stories/display.php?id=1492376

    I also know several kids in our section, home school and play high school tennis.
     
    #88
  39. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    What's up with the dances? Is it just my community that does not have these high school dances that seem so popular? High school kids around here socialize, but it's not at dances!

    Yeah there is the prom, but it seems that the high school kids who play spring sports miss these because of sports obligations more often than they attend them.

    Sorry for the diversion
     
    #89
  40. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    No high school dances at my son's school either.
     
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  41. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    He is not on the team.

    TRN doesn't always get it right, but more importantly,
    it is hard to analyze from TRN the match up of athletic ability, and even GPA/SAT if you have that info
    to say why this kid or that kid went to a select school.

    The legacy issue and developmental kids ( big $ donated) throw any analysis off.
     
    #91
  42. Chemist

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    I think my son's high school has 4 dances each year, spring dance, prom, home coming, and winter dance plus bonfire night. He only made two due to conflict with tournament. I think he went to 4-5 Sweet 16 parties last year.
     
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  43. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    OK, thanks. I'm with you on the conflicts....at least as it relates to proms.

    And didn't mean to pick on the quote you posted up about "dances". I have seen the reference to missed dances mentioned several places in the context of home schooling. My opinion is that missed dances should not be considered a significant negative social attribute of home schooling

    Again, sorry for the diversion
     
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  44. Chemist

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    I am with you that a kid doesn't have to go to school dances or proms to develop social skills. Tennis is a perfect way of interacting with other kids, particularly at Zonals. BTW, a clear advantage for home schooling is that a kid is more able to play ITF tournaments and popular events like Eddie Herr or Orange Bowl that always take place during the week.
     
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  45. BirdieLane

    BirdieLane New User

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    So bottom line, Brown accepted a homeschool kid (who may or may not have gone there). Point being that I don't think you shut down options by being homeschooled or online schooled if you are otherwise a strong academic candidate and can nail the SAT/ACT.

    Also, if he could play high school tennis since 8th grade, why wouldn't he be able to go to the high school dance?
     
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  46. Chemist

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    I think any kid, especially a tennis player, who has the discipline to do what is required to learn, to get good grades and to "nail the SAT/ACT", he/she can be successful home-schooling or otherwise. For my son's school, a student ID is required to enter the dance floor.
     
    #96
  47. TennisNola

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    Alanna Wolf just committed to Princeton. She goes to Laurel Springs online.
     
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  48. Chemist

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    A quick search of the current Ivy tennis team rosters shows the following players, who were either home-schooled or graduated from Laurel Springs.

    Florin Radu, Freshman, Princeton, Laurel Springs (Canada)
    Monica Chow, Senior, Princeton, Home School (blue chip)
    Henry Steer, Sophomore, Harvard, Laurel Springs (5 star)
    Vaidya Kanika, Freshman, Columbia, Laurel Springs (India)
    Brett Cromwell, Senior, Cornell, Nick Bollettieri Tennis Academy (on-line school?), transferred to Cornell, bench warmer
    Sarah Leonard, Senior, Dartmouth, Laurel Springs (5 star)
     
    #98
  49. BirdieLane

    BirdieLane New User

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    Nice work. Case closed.
     
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  50. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    I know one of the players. He/she did 3 years of traditional high school. Had a high GPA and high SATs. For his/her senior year tennis trained full time and went to Laural Springs. Ivy coaches are good with that. Big advantage to traditional schooled blue chipper with 3.5 GPA and 1900 on SATs over 4 years at Laurel Springs with similar GPA and SATs.
     

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