How bad Nadal's 2011 really was.

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by nikdom, Dec 30, 2011.

  1. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

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    A 24 year old Nadal entered 2011 firmly ranked No.1, holding the Wimbledon, FO and USO titles - a clear No.1 having won multiple grand slams on various surfaces.

    He relinquished his no.1 ranking to Djokovic in June 2011. All year he won 3 titles - Monte Carlo, Barcelona and the French Open. This may seem like a good year with one GS title, but consider this - he only won titles on clay (his best surface), losing his grip on everything else. In MC and Barcelona, where Djokovic did not enter, he won against buddy Ferrer. When he played a clay tournament where Djokovic was entered, DjoIkovic cleaned out his clock. Its anyone's guess if Nadal would have even had the lone FO slam if Roger had not stopped a rampaging Djokovic.

    So in summary, a seemingly all-conquering Nadal entered 2011 as No.1 and did not even manage to win on his best surface against Djokovic, the guy who truly became the top guy on tour this year. A very lucky break at the FO gave Nadal a GS title as an early Christmas gift.

    Nadal fans keep telling me he was a great number 1 because he's won 10 gs titles etc etc. What does it say about a guy in his prime, who could not defend even his own turf as No.1? True, Djokovic came up with the goods but what does it say about Nadal? How truly was he the top dog in the game if he was kicked off the throne this easy?
     
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  2. MixieP

    MixieP Hall of Fame

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    Nadal's 2011 year was very bad, and it can only get worse in 2012, because now he has all those runner-up points to defend.
     
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  3. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    July 2011. Djokovic confirmed that he'd be number 1 when he beat Tsonga in the Wimbledon semi finals, and became number 1 the day after beating Nadal in the final.

    Djokovic has been a big problem for Nadal in 2011. No news there.

    Is this the same Ferrer who has a 2-1 head-to-head lead over Nadal in the majors?

    Nadal won the title and he's the 6-time French Open champion. That's all that matters.

    Nadal won the greatest clay-court prize in 2011. I think Nadal would take the exact same clay-court season in 2012 as what he had in 2011. But yes, there is this Djokovic problem that Nadal has to sort out for his own sake.

    Nadal is the number 1 on clay still. LOL at any suggestion to the contrary.
     
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  4. Homeboy Hotel

    Homeboy Hotel Hall of Fame

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    If you're calling Nadal's 2011 disastrous then that just shows the high benchmark he set in 2010.

    Even if in 2011 he,
    - Won a slam
    - Reached the final of 3 slams
    - Reached the final of 5 masters
    - Won 3 titles
    - Ended the year #2

    You made word Nadal's year seem embarrassing, but in effect, no one else (whether it be Federer or Murray) had a year even touching on what Nadal has done.

    I'm far from a Nadal fan, but lets be reasonable - even though Djokovic has come and blown the whole season away for most of 2011, Nadal has not been exposed as nothing but the SECOND best player in the world as of late.
     
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  5. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

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    ^^ Mustard you say no. 1 on clay. Read my post carefully. I'm talking about No.1 in the sport. Don't make stupid posts if you dont have a point.
     
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  6. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    Nadal's own turf is clay(the only surface he dominates) and Nadal is certainly not in his prime on clay, unless you believe that you can still be in your prime after dominating clay for SIX SEASONS.

    I can apply your logic of being kicked of the throne so easy to guys like Borg, who had a couple of short stints at nr.1 by your measure, 1,2,3,20,34 and 46 weeks respectively. We all know how weak Borg was, amirite?
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2011
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  7. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    You said "own turf".
     
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  8. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

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    We are discussing the way he went from No.1 to 2. If a guy is in his prime, you would expect a sterner fight from him, unless his 2010 was a flash in the pan.

    Now, if Djokovic doesn't defend but one GS next yr, then we will agree 2011 was a flash in the pan - an exception but not the true foreboding of things to come.
    Also
     
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  9. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

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    I made a thread asking if Nadal is a transitional champion between the legendary Federer and the potentially legendary Djokovic. We will only know if Nadal continues to lose ground to Djokovic in the Slams.
    Basically the way it looks is that when Federer began to get older and lost his confidence and was ridden with mononucelosis for a spell and back trouble, that's the same time that Nadal won his first Wimbledon and the Australian Open. So it's interesting to see what happens going forward.
    If Nadal was merely just a gatekeeper to the next big thing in Djokovic or if he's legitimately an all-surface player.
    After all, Nadal won the AO in 2009 and still hasn't made it past the Quarterfinal stage since.
     
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  10. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Djokovic was better in 2011. What else can be said? By the time Djokovic had won the US Open, he had only lost 2 matches in 2011.
     
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  11. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

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    Yes,he lost to Djokovic on his own turf. He wasnt invincible even on clay.
     
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  12. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

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    Yep. Very interesting point.
     
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  13. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Nadal is still number 1 on clay.
     
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  14. ultradr

    ultradr Hall of Fame

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    Djokovic was too good. Nadal's 2011 wasn't really bad. But I think 2011 killed Nadal's spirit a little bit. That might affect Nadal in 2012. I think Nadal should continue working on improving, simply waiting for Djokovic's playing level going down a bit.
     
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  15. All-rounder

    All-rounder Legend

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    How exactly are you basing this judgement?? Because he won RG?? I still say he isn't the best on clay when he has yet to take a set off his main rival.
     
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  16. All-rounder

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    Wait for his level to go down? How do we even know if Nadal is gonna remain at this level?
     
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  17. kishnabe

    kishnabe G.O.A.T.

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    Nadal 2011 was really good...the second best player of the year. No DJokovic...and he would have had his best season.
     
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  18. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    It's interesting how Djokovic and Nadal's 2010 and 2011 are a "flash in a pan", when they won THREE SLAMS in those years.

    In the Open Era only like Laver,Connors,Wilander and Fed did it.

    That's some flash.
     
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  19. OddJack

    OddJack Legend

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    It was the worst great year in ATP history.
     
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  20. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    Nadal is #1 on clay if Djoker is not allowed to play there. Else he is #2. The data prove it.
     
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  21. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Djokovic has zero French Opens thus far. Nadal won his 6th French Open in 2011. It's laughable to think that beating Nadal in the Madrid and Rome finals is enough on its own to usurp Nadal from his clay throne.
     
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  22. All-rounder

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    So let me get this straight. If Djokovic and Nadal were to play each other again this clay season, you have Nadal winning the majority of the match ups?
     
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  23. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    When Cvac wins RG 7 times surpassing Nadal,16 masters on clay surpassing Nadal, and amasses the titanic clay record that Nadal has,then he can be considered the best on clay. Until he does those things he cannot hold Nadal's jock on the surface and cannot hold a candle to him regardless if he has beaten him twice in the past year on clay or not.
     
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  24. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    I said nothing about 2012, only that Nadal is still the best on clay as of now.
     
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  25. All-rounder

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    No No No. I'm not talking legacy, I already know Djokovic doesn't compare. He has yet to even make the final of RG, I'm referring to who is the current best player on clay. Which I still believe isn't Nadal despite him winning RG last year.
     
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  26. All-rounder

    All-rounder Legend

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    So would you say Djokovic is the best on grass? Or that Federer was the best in 2010 even though he didn't win but was a 6 time defending champions?
     
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  27. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    At the moment, yes.

    Sorry?
     
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  28. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    Nadal is still the King of Clay. RG is still in his hands.

    I just wouldn't say The Undisputed King of Clay. The manhandling by Djokovic has at least taken that away from him. But he still sits on the throne.
     
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  29. snowpuppy

    snowpuppy Semi-Pro

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    I am not a Nadal fan but lets be fair, you really expect him to repeat 2011. He was only overshadowed by another amazing season by another player, else wise, he did well and got deep to many tournaments and was a convincing #2.
     
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  30. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

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    I expected Nadal to do better after the 2010 he had. What makes you think Novak is going to go down soon?
     
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  31. jokinla

    jokinla Hall of Fame

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    I wouldn't say this year was Nadal's prime, but "prime" means something different to everybody. I would say that this was by far Djoker's prime.

    And to say he was kicked off the throne easily, if you consider what Djoker did easy, then good for you, but we haven't seen a year like this in decades, so I'd hardly say it was easy.
     
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  32. tudwell

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    Nadal's own results this year hardly had any bearing on his ranking. Djokovic was just too good. He made the number one ranking just by reaching the Wimbledon final. If he'd lost, then Nadal would have held three slams to Djoker's one, but Djoker would've been the number one player in the world. Pretty impressive stuff when you can amass enough points to overtake a guy holding three grand slam tournaments in the last 52 weeks.
     
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  33. Mighty Matteo

    Mighty Matteo Semi-Pro

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    I have to say that as well as Novak played this year, there have been periods of time in the past when Nadal played at a higher level and Federer played at higher level than Djokovic did this year. That being said, he was head and shoulders above everyone else this year as demonstrated by his record.
     
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  34. Mansewerz

    Mansewerz Legend

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    Nadal's 2011 was better than Fed's 2008 in some ways.
     
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  35. passive_aggressive

    passive_aggressive Banned

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    Yeah.

    Not just on clay, on any surface. Djokovic looks spent - mentally and physically.

    Nadal doesn't look so great himself, but let's face it, a 10% Nadal wipes the floor with the rest of the competition these days.

    If Djokovic has lost a step, Nadal just needs to show up at any tournament or Slam, and he's basically guaranteed the title.
     
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  36. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Well said.
     
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  37. Monsieur_DeLarge

    Monsieur_DeLarge Semi-Pro

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    • In 1969 Laver (31) won all four slams. In 1970 he failed to get past the fourth round in the only two majors he entered.
    • In 1974 Connors (22) won all three slams he played. In 1975 he lost in the final of those same three majors, and to a different opponent each time.
    • In 1984 McEnroe (25) won "only" [sic] two slams, but had a Djokovic-esque year of dominance. In 1985 he only managed two QFs, a SF, and a lone final appearance.
    • In 1988 Wilander (24) won three of the four slams. In 1989 he couldn't get past the quarters in four attempts, didn't win a single title, had a 34-18 record for the year, and finished outside the top ten in the rankings.

    People with very short memories, or no experience of tennis prior to Fedal, seem to be under the impression that it's easy to win three slams in a year and then achieve similar success over the subsequent twelve months. In fact, as evinced above, the opposite is true: Nadal and Federer are the only players in the Open Era to win three major titles in a year, and win any the following year. And given that Rafa's record against players not called "Djokovic" was 23-1 in slams and 69-9 overall, I think he had a great 2011.



    Regards,
    MDL
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2011
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  38. Sentinel

    Sentinel Talk Tennis Guru

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    Thankfully, Nadal didn't win all those matches he lost, otherwise he would have had all those championship points to defend !

    Hey Mixip, great to see you, wish you a very very happy new year. *waves*
     
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  39. Sentinel

    Sentinel Talk Tennis Guru

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    Can we forget 2011, puhlease. It's over and done.

    Judging by the way Ralph cleaned the floors with the "goat", he'll win AO, and I dare say he's only playing on half a cylinder.
     
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  40. tusharlovesrafa

    tusharlovesrafa Hall of Fame

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    Does he use Indane,BP or HP??
     
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  41. Sentinel

    Sentinel Talk Tennis Guru

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    Natural gas. Did you not hear the airplane sound when Roger served once. Rafa was refueling at that time.
     
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  42. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Or Nadal should wait and work for his level to come back up! It's not like we haven't seen this before; an excellent season or period of time from Nadal where he wins three out of four slams and then has a relatively weak next year. It's happened twice: (dominant 2008 thru aussie 2009 vs relatively weak 2009 as a whole, and then bad 2009 vs a great 2010, and now fantastic 2010 vs to a weaker 2011).

    The closest match we've seen of Nadal 2010 level vs the new Nole is the 2010 USO final and Nadal won in 4 sets on his least favorite surface. Nole of 2010 USO semis and final, was the beginning of the Nole of 2011. After all 2010 USO Nole beat 2010 USO Federer nearly the exact same way he beat Federer this year at the USO!

    So instead of waiting for Nole to lower, I'd rather see Nadal raise his level back to what we've seen from last year and then face Nole. Those would be great matches!
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2011
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  43. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    You go girl, sugar and Spice, and everything nice, it ain't a man's world... Lol
     
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  44. passive_aggressive

    passive_aggressive Banned

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    Nadal had good 2008, bad 2009, good 2010, bad 2011, obviously his 2012 will be good then.
     
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  45. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Very good post and perspective!

    Although Federer was able to win 3 out of 4 slams in consecutive years. We will see if Nole can do the same...
     
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  46. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    Actually, Nole in USO 2010 SF/F wasn't as good as he was in 2011 - quite a bit of difference .

    Miami 2011 was nadal playing very well - close to his 2010 level, yet lost in the 3rd set breaker ....

    Another example of nadal playing brilliantly , yet losing ,was the first set of wimbledon ....he was playing very well, serving well above 80%, yet djoker broke him at crunch to seal it ..

    @ USO 2010 and 2011 SFs comparison, LOL ! federer didn't even play that well in the sets that he won in 2010, just clinched those sets towards the end through some clutch play ...

    In 2011, he played very well in the first 2 sets, then went down rapidly for next two and then played a decent final set ... Djoker was playing quite a bit better too ..

    Nadal 2010 level is "over-rated". He was losing to ljubicic/garcia-lopez/lopez etc , was taken to 5 by haase/petz at wimbledon..... There were impressive matches like the USO final, murray wimbledon SF, soderling FO F etc, but he had some luck with a nervous soderling/berdych in the FO & Wimbledon finals and easy draw at the USO till the finals .....

    The "only" 2 things nadal 2010 did better than djoker 2011 was a slightly more lethal FH , but only when on and the way he handled the slice ....At everything else djoker is his equal or better !
     
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  47. MixieP

    MixieP Hall of Fame

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    Yes, Senti, it was a blessing in disguise.

    The best we can hope for - and when I say 'we' I mean Rapla fanatiques like you and me, Senti - the best thing we can hope for is a steady decline for our boy - in contrast to a drastique dekline. So, the goal for Ralpa for 2012 should be to reach the semifinals of all the big tournaments he lost in 2011, which would mean that he hasn't got too many points to defend in 2013. Because, as we all know, it's much harder to defend points than to win them in the first place.

    Happy new year!
     
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  48. tusharlovesrafa

    tusharlovesrafa Hall of Fame

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    are u reffering to the AO exo..hit for haiti..where roger was like,"GRRRRRRRAWWWWWWWWWURRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHH.....DHHHHHUUUUSSSSSSSS"
     
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  49. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Psyche to everything you've said here, try to analyze things minus the hate you obviously have for Nadal!

    I do agree that the Miami final is a close approximation of 2010 Nadal vs 2011 Nole, disregarding Nadal's demonstrably less offensive serve! And he still nearly won on his worst surface and Nole's best.
     
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  50. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    Overall, with the exception of one player, Nadal dominated across all surfaces this past year. Remarkable consistency, numerous finals, no matter the surface. Regular players can only dream of having such a season. I think he was shaken mentally by the resilience of Novak, who himself became an even stronger wall than Rafa. But apart from that, I really enjoyed his play overall this year.
     
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