How can I move down 0.5 NTRP

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by usta2050, Feb 18, 2013.

  1. usta2050

    usta2050 Rookie

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    How many matches do I have to lose to move from let's say 4.5 to 4.0?

    I am planning on a 0-8 record this year for the 18 and over leagues. Is that enough?
     
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  2. GMay

    GMay New User

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    I have heard that you need two season of a losing record. I know someone that used to constantly get bumped between 2.5 and 3.0. She would have a winning season at 2.5, getted bumped to 3.0 then have a losing season at 3.0 for two years before getting moved back down to 2.5.
     
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  3. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    Depends ... I have a buddy that was a top 4.5 had his knees replaced and two discs fused. He sat out 2 years, has gone 2-12 in the three years since and is still a 4.5.

    I have another buddy that was bumped to 4.5 two years ago, had a decent record of 6-8 over two years and was moved back down.

    Bottom line is that getting bumped down is based on where your rating is now, who you play between now and the end of the year and how badly you lose.

    There is no way to know if you will get want you want, but I suspect if there is a will you will find a way.
     
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  4. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I could partner with you, which ought to help.
     
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  5. njsigman

    njsigman Rookie

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    Why do you want to move down a level and why do you want to tank matches?
     
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  6. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    hope someone at USTA likes you or you are on your state or Sectional Board, apparently that helps. Otherwise short of losing an arm or leg, or in one case locally putting on 25 lbs you're stuck. I have not won a match in 3 yrs and still stuck at 5.0
     
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  7. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Throwing all your matches seems like a lot of time to waste just in order to get bumped down. There's got to be an easier way... why not just re-register using your middle name or something, and self-rate as a 3.5? That way you have some room to grow...

    :oops:
     
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  8. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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    Try not to win more than 1 game per set or you probably wont get bumped down.
     
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  9. wrxinsc

    wrxinsc Professional

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    i would partner with teh sphinx any day of the week. and not to be 'bumped down.' [idle]Nudge, nudge. Wink wink. Say no more[/idle]
     
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  10. samarai

    samarai Rookie

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    Like orange power's idea rue register under a new alias and u will be the greatest 3.0 who ever lived.
     
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  11. goran_ace

    goran_ace Hall of Fame

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    Didn't he file for a medical appeal? Maybe he should have just sat out one more year so his computer rating was no longer valid and then he could have self-rated all over again.
     
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  12. lostinamerica

    lostinamerica Semi-Pro

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    It matters who you lose to. Play against a team with a lot of 4.0s and lose 3&3 a few times to their 4.0s. Lose 1&1 to the 4.5s. Do it only in the spring league. Don't play combo or tri-level. Spring is the best gauge. In many sections, fall matches do not count.

    You will get down.
     
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  13. usta2050

    usta2050 Rookie

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    thank you all for the words of wisdom. I will try not to win more than 1 game per set.
     
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  14. SwankPeRFection

    SwankPeRFection Hall of Fame

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    What's the matter? You don't feel good going home anymore since you can't beat up on lesser 4.0 players? :p
     
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  15. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    Assuming that you've actually been playing matches during that time, that's just ridiculous.
     
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  16. SteveI

    SteveI Legend

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    Classic... USTA player. How about just playing your matches straight up and do not worry about where the computer puts you. I just do not get it!! Why play down??? I know the answer.. I just do not get it.. I know it is to win.. Why not just change your name.. and play 3.0 and go to nationals...Yikes!
     
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  17. nkbond

    nkbond Rookie

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    I bet you don't play usta? I played 4.5 for four years one time with no wins before getting down to 4.0. W's and L's don't factor...just set scores. And yeah it sux to be at a level where you cannot win every now and then.
     
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  18. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    why not improve your game and start winning matches?
     
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  19. Overdrive

    Overdrive Legend

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    That's what I'm saying! :mad:

    I've seen everything on here now...
     
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  20. Govnor

    Govnor Professional

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    What a waste of time. How did you end up at a level so far above your ability that you'll waste yours and other peoples time for a season or two just to change it?
     
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  21. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    It would be interesting to see/know the actual record of the OP to see if 4.5 is really a level so far above their ability, or if this is another case of someone just wanting to win every match which they are unable to do at 4.5.

    OP, care to share a link to your status on TennisLink or let us know your record the past 3 years?
     
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  22. Govnor

    Govnor Professional

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    There might be a perfectly reasonable explanation. I'm just interested to know what it is.
     
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  23. ronray43

    ronray43 New User

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    In addition to losing at 0-1 in every match, play #3 doubles. In most cases, you'll be playing the lower end players, who should have low DNTRPs.

    I've been getting killed for 2 years now after being moved up to 4.0. But, since I usually play #1 singles as the sacrificial line, my opponents normally have high DNTRPs, so I'm supposed to get killed and my DNTRP doesn't seem to be going down.
     
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  24. SteveI

    SteveI Legend

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    Useless Thread....only on Talk Tennis...:-(
     
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  25. Alchemy-Z

    Alchemy-Z Hall of Fame

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    I hope you are not playing doubles..I feel for your team mates
     
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  26. usta2050

    usta2050 Rookie

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    no, i am doing solo, singles, 0-8 or more, 6-0, 6-0s.

    also, i bought the multi-year membership and i have a huge mortgage, so i can't pay for another membership...

    thank you all for your thoughts and comments. I just want to hang out with ladies (for mxd) at the lower level. they are more friendly. so i guess i am doing it for the right reasons.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
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  27. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    He did file for a medical appeal and was denied.

    At the two year mark he played 1 match of mixed and realized he was completely out gunned and appealed. However, because he played that one match he was then told he would have to wait 3 more years to self rate ... so a total of 5 years out.

    But as it turns out... he has bounced back and even though this year he was 2-6, he is really better than that record would suggest. He will do better this season I am sure.
     
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  28. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    Jlyon posted his name a couple of months ago. I looked him up and he is not lying about this.

    However, if I remember correctly he plays in a small league and probably only plays a few matches a year.
     
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  29. goober

    goober Legend

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    I know this is a big troll post...

    But I know somebody was bumped to 4.5C year end rating. Spring season played 2 matches at 4.5. Lost both. ESR to 4.0 for fall season. "Managed" his ratings nicely in fall season including lopsided losses in straight sets to 3.5C players playing up 4.0. End of year rating 4.0C

    So basically he spent exactly 2 matches at 4.5.
     
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  30. Joeyg

    Joeyg Semi-Pro

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    And people wonder why I no longer bother with USTA League Tennis....
     
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  31. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    #31
  32. RoachTennis

    RoachTennis New User

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    6-0 sets dont count towards your rating. 6-1 is the worst score you can lose by. Also if you play 6 matches or more you cant appeal.
     
    #32
  33. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    It's not by set. 6-0 6-0 matches don't count, but 6-0 sets do as long as the other set is not 6-0.
     
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  34. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    Not so strange when you look at the details.

    First, he only played 2 adult matches so those aren't used and he get a mixed exclusive rating from the 4 mixed matches. And yes, he lost all 4, but they were all close, including 2 where he won a set and was even or just -1 on game differential.

    But the kicker is that he was playing 8.0 mixed as a 4.0 with a 3.5 partner. Given this, and especially if the partner wasn't a strong 3.5, they were likely supposed to lose these 8.0 matches, probably by more than they did. So their very competitive results against likely stronger opponents indicated he was playing better than his rating and he got bumped.
     
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  35. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    Yup small league and I refuse to tank, plus I refuse to sit out 3 years only to appeal later, kinda figure the Computer might get it right one year, but it is getting old. My game/ego is bruised and battered from all the butt kickings.
     
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  36. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    I understand how the math actually works, but it's still a flaw when the formula bumps you for losing every match. One of the adult losses is to me. The guy is an average 4.0 who drew a couple short straws in adult play (I was 14-2 at 4.0 and the other guy is actually a 4.5 player who was sandbagging last year). He could easily compete in 4.0, but the system has just pretty much excluded him from playing adult again (unless they grant an appeal since he would have to self-rate again with an M-rating for adult).
     
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  37. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    I agree it appears odd and like I said earlier, if I was formulating a rating system myself, I'd include something about winning/losing, but at least he does have just an M rating and he has options to self-rate/appeal down.

    But, I'd also argue that a rating system should not preclude one's rating from improving when you lose. If you are a 4.0 playing up at 4.5, and play very strong 4.5 players to very close matches, even if you lose every one, you've demonstrated that you can play competitive at 4.5 and should probably be at that level and it is likely that had you had the opportunity to play weaker 4.5s that you would have won matches against them.

    This is really no different from a 4.5 that goes winless at 4.5 against very strong 4.5s not being bumped down. If this 4.5 and the 4.0 playing up have identical records, shouldn't they be rated the same and that be 4.5? Ok, I'm sure you'll argue that the winless 4.5 should be bumped down, even though he played tight matches against the best 4.5s.

    And for the guy you referenced, he was effectively playing up (7.5 combined with his partner playing at 8.0) and we all know playing up is the best way to get bumped up. And this "playing up" is analogous to what I described above with the 4.0 playing up at 4.5.

    Now, obviously the specifics of his partner's rating and the opponent's ratings that they played are key. Not every player that goes winless playing up should be bumped up. But a good system has to allow for the possibility.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
    #37
  38. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    I would think he could make a case on his appeal due to his record and the 2 singles matches he played.
     
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  39. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Does that mean this player is still a self-rated 4.0 as far as same-sex league play is concerned?
     
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  40. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    They do self-rate for same-sex league play, but I believe the minimum they are supposed to self-rate at is their M rating. But I think they can auto-appeal down when registering and there may be some conditions (M rating within a certain range of the bottom of their level?) where it is automatically granted.
     
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  41. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    No, you only have one rating, not different ratings for different league types. Right now, his rating is 4.5 M. If an M-rated player wants to play adult, he has to slef-rate for adult but cannot self-rate lower than his M-rating. Like any other adult self-rate, he can appeal the self-rating. This is not an automatic on-line appeal. Self-rating appeals are the type that you make your case to an actual person and that person decides on the merit of the appeal. In this case, I beleive they would (or should) grant the appeal. Middle States, in my experience, has been pretty fair about granting appeals, although they have been tightening a little in the last year or two, so you never know.
     
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  42. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Thanks to you both. I was just curious how this situation would be handled since the player had apparently already self-rated at 4.0 and played two matches in addition to the 4 8.0 mixed matches.

    That is an odd quirk of the system. I didn't realize there was such a connection between a mixed exclusive rating and a subsequent adult same sex rating.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
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  43. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    If he had played 3 adult matches instead of 2, he would have gotten a C rating instead of an M rating, presumably 4.0 C since there is nothing at all indicative of 4.5 in his adult results. The real question is, if he self-rates for adult, regardless of whether he appeals down to 4.0 or not, do the two matches played last year count toward a dynamic rating? In other words, he should have some kind of dynamic rating from the two adult matches, so if he plays one more adult match, do those three adult matches then generate a YE C rating and therefore bypass the mixed results that generated a 4.5M rating? If so, even if he tries to appeal and is denied, he could conceivably sign up for 4.5 adult, play one match and get thrashed (he would even have to throw it - he's not a 4.5 player...), and hope that the three adult matches override the mixed ratings and bump him back down to 4.0.
     
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  44. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    Great question and one I don't have the answer for nor have I seen folks speculate on the answer. So hopefully someone will in response to this!

    My assumption has been that the 2 matches from last year don't count and he really starts this year with a new self-rating, i.e. no dynamic rating. But I could be wrong.

    A similar question is, once you have a YE C rating, do you start the next year with that rating alone or does your history (past 3 dynamic ratings) carry over for averaging purposes to calculate your new rating? I've also assumed the history doesn't carry over but could be wrong here too.

    Answers or educated guesses welcome.
     
    #44
  45. spaceman_spiff

    spaceman_spiff Hall of Fame

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    For days I've been thinking about posting a long-winded comment about how the OP should take the opportunity to test himself, up his game, learn from superior opponents, and so on. But, I realized that all my thoughts on the subject could be better summarized in four letters: MTFU.

    Seriously.
     
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  46. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Except that the OP is apparently a woman (I forensically analyzed some previous posts), I agree 100%. I guess MTFU still applies even then.
     
    #46
  47. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    I think if you have a C rating, the dynamic ratings from the previous year's matches do play into the current year just as if it were one long continuous string of matches, but I don't know that for sure. Even if that's true, though, it still may not be in the other case where an M rating superceded the adult play.
     
    #47
  48. F L O B B E R

    F L O B B E R Rookie

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    This thread is a testament to why USTA is a joke. If you play to your actual rating eventually you will run into sandbaggers that pull this crap... And for what? For a chance to make it to Disticts or Sectionals to play against OTHER teams stacked with sandbaggers? It's pathetic.
     
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  49. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    If the OP is so eager to play against players with ratings below his own true rating, how about wheelchair tennis!! If the matches are not officiated, you can just hop out of the wheelchair to hit the ball, then say it never happened.
     
    #49
  50. SteveI

    SteveI Legend

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    Yuppers.. that is what the USTA leagues always are all about. The only way to move forward (sectionals.. nationals) is to find a ringer(s) that are sandbagging for various reasons. Not getting my money, time or effort. While it is true that the USTA has the best intentions.. it just does not work.
     
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