How can I play tennis, lose fat, and build muscle all at the same time?

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by limitup, Feb 26, 2013.

  1. comeback

    comeback Professional

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    Thanks Barrow, i will follow your advice.It's the squats i read about that make me so sore and stiff...As far as the diet, i eat healthy but do eat grains like cereals and cakes which i cut out significantly 4 days ago and already feel much better..From reading reviews of the book, it seems like just meat, eggs, veggies, protein etc..any other specifics on the recommended diet would be much appreciated..Thanks a lot
     
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  2. colowhisper

    colowhisper Semi-Pro

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    The diet is actually quite "normal" just emphasizes macronutrient balances depending in your goal. You should try the app myfitnesspal to input your current diet, really makes it easy. If you don't have an iPhone you can just use the website.
     
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  3. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    You also acknowledged that you did this as a novice over the period of 9 months correct?

    The novice effect is a generally an exception to the statement "you can't gain muscle and lose fat at the same time"

    The statement in general is not 100% accurate either, as there is such a thing as recomping, which is essentially what you did. The caveat is that this generally takes a lot longer than the standard bulk/cut cycling and usually requires more complicated planning (absent being a novice or using drugs)

    I would guess that during this 9 month period you were not in a surplus (at least not a very significant one) but you were also not in a deficit, at least looking at it macroscopically

    9 months is a pretty substantial stretch of time for such a thing

    And there is most certainly some increased water and glycogen retention in your LBM increase, more than a bit i'd wager
     
    #53
  4. comeback

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    #54
  5. peoplespeace

    peoplespeace Semi-Pro

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    The point about being a novice is correct, which i "pointed to" when i wrote "Im not saying that u can continue to produce those stats, but as a novice lifter many people have genes that allow this."

    I said that part of the gain was water. My aim is that people shouldnt believe the often stated sweaping claim that it is not at all fysiologically possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time due to the "imposibility of being catabolic and anabolic at the same time". This is misleading.
     
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  6. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Professional

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    Thanks for the reply!

    So bottom line:

    If one wants to lose weight by playing tennis he cannot control the ratio of fat to muscle lost.

    The body will do what it wants?
     
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  7. limitup

    limitup Professional

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    ^^^ no that's not true at all. You can definitely help your body to lose more fat than muscle by lifting weights and eating adequate amounts of protein. This should preserve most of your muscle at a decent caloric deficit i.e. the recommending 500 calories a day (if you want to lose weight)
     
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  8. T1000

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    You only lose fat and gain muscle with steroids. No way to do it naturally. You could recomp but since you only have a basic understanding of macros and won't track nutrition there's no point in trying that. Just lean bulk another 10lbs then start a slow cut
     
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  9. peoplespeace

    peoplespeace Semi-Pro

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    i second this!
     
    #59
  10. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Professional

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    Okay, but how about losing weight solely by playing tennis (no weight training).

    In that case one cannot control the ratio of fat and muscle lost.
     
    #60
  11. peoplespeace

    peoplespeace Semi-Pro

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    The "only" important parametre would be ensuring that u get enough protein and at the right times. Eg a casein shake before bed and 30g of protein at breakfast eg in the form of low calorie youghurt.
     
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  12. charliefedererer

    charliefedererer Legend

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    Best advice.

    You can only do your best.
     
    #62
  13. comeback

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    Ok guys i started the testosterone book diet 4 days ago that PBarrow referenced (mostly protein/low carb) and feel great. Also tracking it on myfitnesspal.com.Really started at 180lbs but lost a few lbs already..Feel much better and less tired. Want to get down to 160...will post my results and hopefully a picture
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
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  14. limitup

    limitup Professional

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    I'm doing the same. Just using myfitnesspal has made me a lot more conscious about what I'm eating. At least for now my motto is "if I can't figure out the nutritional content to enter into myfitnesspal, I don't eat it". Also reading the T book but still have about half way to go.

    The biggest question mark for me is still in regards to balancing the weights, tennis and rest. The book suggests working out 3 times a week and NOT doing any strenuous exercise on the other days i.e. you MUST get the proper rest to see the results. I know this isn't the first time I've heard that, and I'm sure it's true.

    It just seems like working out with weights - and getting all the benefits that comes with it - is in direct conflict with playing competitive tennis 3-5 times a week ...

    Pbarrow - I think you said your workouts were twice a week and you play tennis 2-3 times a week or so, so while maybe this isn't ideal for muscle building, etc. it obviously works for you??
     
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  15. comeback

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    Great Limit, so far i love the diet and the tracking and not having hunger pangs, I did my first squats today and am playing a light singles match tomorrow. i must have read over 500 reviews from Amazon about the author's many books and it's overwhemingingly positive ...I think you're right about not doing this for 3-5 days of serious competition..Most pro's and serious competitive players do a bulk of strength training when being "off" for several weeks and concentrate on stretching and practicing when in tournaments. But it can be done on a modified basis (even with a week off). I remember Agassi was lifting on a modified schedule even during tournaments.
     
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  16. limitup

    limitup Professional

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    Yeah, no doubt, pros use "periodization" and it's all pretty cut and dry since they have lots of time between tournaments. But what about us regular guys who play year round week in and week out??
     
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  17. comeback

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    Usually players take off a week here and there or Dec holidays or cold weather..Just curious? What level are you? What type of matches/tournaments are you playing in so often?
     
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  18. limitup

    limitup Professional

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    Taking off a week "here or there" isn't enough to implement a strength training program during such a short break though ...?

    I'm a 4.5 player, and working on improving. I play in leagues, tourneys, ladders, and sometimes just a competitive match with a friend. I generally play 3-4 matches a week on average. What can I say ... I love tennis?
     
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  19. comeback

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    I get it Limit, You sound like a young guy..i am also a certified coach and trainer and tournament player but older now 62. You can raise your level even more but taking 4-6 weeks off from serious matches and just play less by hitting and keeping your form and timing..But also try to take off a full week sometimes and go heavier with the weights..Believe me even top pros like Federer/Nadal etc don't pick up a racket for a week sometimes to avoid burnout..By playing a lot of matches you will be very "match tough" but you will get stale after a while ..Play more doubles during your heavy workout phase. Sometimes you have to take a step back to move up and get even better.. Believe me you will never get worse. So have confidence in your game that you can take breaks from it..here is an example of a good "periodization" timeframe for tennis.
    http://www.optimumtennis.net/tennis-fitness-program.htm
     
    #69
  20. comeback

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    post deleted
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2013
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  21. colowhisper

    colowhisper Semi-Pro

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    Yes, I definetely focused on weights over winter, worked out twice a week intense weights and played only casual tennis, mostly doubles. I am just now starting to transition to more tennis and lower weights. Hoping to keep the new muscle and strength but won't go for any more gains.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2013
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  22. colowhisper

    colowhisper Semi-Pro

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    Great to hear comeback, I look forward to following your progress. I wish I had taken a "before" picture now! I recently talked my doubles partner into reading the book and getting the app and he is also experiencing fast results. Should be a good season!
     
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  23. comeback

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    Thanks barrow, down to 173 lbs and FEELING GREAT and sleeping better..Luckily my wife is doing it with me and can make some no carb deserts which helps my original problems...just no grains and sugar..I was in good shape before but i can't wait for those abs to start showing..Can someone tell me how to post a picture?
     
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  24. mikeespinmusic

    mikeespinmusic Rookie

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    I'll keep this simple.

    You probably are training too hard causing you to burn off your muscle.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    Anything you do will build some form of muscle. I remember an old saying "If you don't want to build muscle, don't get out of bed." So you don't have to worry about cardio/endurance work being a detriment. Look up pictures of michael chang's legs.

    http://asiansuperhero.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/michael_chang.jpg

    That was from endurance and explosive speed/power, not hypertrophy squats.

    When you feel sore the following days after a work out. You're in extremely good fat burning mode. The body is burning energy rebuilding and recovering in this phase. Get plenty of rest, good food and sleep. And avoid over training.

    If you don't address these and keep pushing through, you'll release the stress hormone cortizol which will cause you to burn off your muscle --which slows your metabolism then makes you put on fat--- So don't even think about starving yourself either...

    As a trainer since 2006, I think you should consider focusing on training that compliments your tennis.

    This is why people fail and TV shows like the biggest loser can milk the drama and stress factor which is weight loss and training. People go in circles wondering why they're not getting anywhere, it creates anxiousness - then they buy into a fad...or just give up.

    Feel free to ask anything else.

     
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  25. limitup

    limitup Professional

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    While technically you're probably right, doing "anything" will not result in the increased strength that most competitive athletes need and are looking for. If that was the case, athletes wouldn't need to workout ...

    Um, Michael Chang did INTENSE weight training. You don't build large powerful muscles in your legs just by running around playing tennis. All moderately successful pro tennis players do serious weight training.
     
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  26. colowhisper

    colowhisper Semi-Pro

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    First you have to host your image somewhere like Flickr or Picasa. Upload there and copy the URL of the photo (often ii is the "share" command). In the forum when posting click on the yellow image box at top of the editor and it will ask you for the URL, just paste there. Simple?!? :)
     
    #76
  27. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    Training too hard causing you to burn off muscle......
    :-|

    Anything you do will build muscle? Sure to a point. Like if you're in a COMA for 10 years and are severely atrophied, the simple act of attempting to move your limbs will build muscle. But there is a limit to what normal activity can do to build muscle. It's all about adaptation, and if there's nothing to adapt to that hasn't already been covered, there's not gonna be much muscle growth

    DOMS is now an indicator of being in a "fat burning mode"? :confused:
    PLEASE provide a source for this, because I smell ********

    Cortisol is going to get released to some degree no matter what you do, it's catabolic in nature but i'm pretty sure it doesn't specifically target muscle mass. So it can actually HELP burn fat (but muscle is another victim)
     
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  28. mikeespinmusic

    mikeespinmusic Rookie

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    Feel free to look it up yourself....

    The body's priority is to hold onto fat around the organs and will happily shed muscle to do it. You have to lose fat "under the radar" to do it right.
    I've done 7 years in the fitness industry so far. I've even worked and gave lectures on carnival cruiseships.
    This is me:
    CERT III & IV Fitness
    CERT III Group Exercise (Including Les Mills Step, Pump, Aerobics, Yoga ect)
    CERT III Matwork Pilates
    Level 1 Strength & Conditioning Coach
    Dual Diploma of Fitness/Sport & Rec (Left in the final month to work with Carnival Cruiselines - Naughty I know, it was only law and marketing subjects I walked out on to take the Carnival Job at the time...)

    I could dig up my text books and lecture notes... but I can't really be bothered trying to back up every bit of advice from someone outside that doesn't like what I say. If you don't like it, don't do it. Keep believing what suits you. Yes I could mention more about adaptation (including neurally), lipolysis, the fight or flight response and being in a catabolic state and even using insulin spikes to offset it. I could go into so much detail. But then that would be information over load for the person asking and they'll get complacent to try anything I say.
     
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  29. mikeespinmusic

    mikeespinmusic Rookie

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    Sport Specific

    I agree with sports specific. In fact i think I said that. Please quote all of it next time.

    Michael chang wouldn't have been doing 10 reps of hypertrophy or 1 rep max's too often. The first one would've worked on the slow twitch fibres (of that movement pattern) of his muscles and that would've slowed him down. Going for strength training and 1rm's wouldn't have had enough endurance for him to develop either. He would've been working on plyometric and interval training to suit for his game. And that requires great endurance too.

    I'm sorry to rub people the wrong way and break stereotypical/old school coach beliefs...but I rehab people in sport. Male tennis players normally are among the worst that don't like to be told they're doing it wrong. "Hitting the gym" is not going to help as much as people think. Ironically pilates and interval training is probably the way to go for it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2013
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  30. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    Lets see here, one giant appeal to authority argument, one regular ad hominem, and something that looks like a reverse ad hominem (or maybe that's still the appeal to authority)

    Your list of credentials does nothing for your argument, you don't even specify which group you've received them from (i.e. NSCA, ACSM, ACE, NASM etc) so that does nothing to convince me that your word is something to be taken without evidence

    EDIT 2: I realize you might not be from the USA, so these organizations might have absolutely zero meaning to you

    Didnt say I didn't like your argument, I said I smelled ********. Literally NOTHING i've ever come across describes DOMS as a "fat burning mode" brought on by workout. In fact everything points to the fact that DOMS is NOT NECESSARILY indicative of a "good workout" or that the lack of it means there's no further adaptation as you seem to have suggested.

    I'm good on catabolic state, lipolysis, and the use of insulin spikes. That's all fine and dandy and your explanation would not be information overload, but I am requesting a source for your description of DOMs

    EDIT: Regarding the too much work burning muscle off, what about olympic weightlifters who frequently train 6+ times a week? They're probably working a hell of a lot harder, longer, and more frequently than anyone in this thread, yet they don't lose their muscle. Or are you simply referring to lack of adequate nutrition resulting in loss of overall body mass
     
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  31. mikeespinmusic

    mikeespinmusic Rookie

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    Sorry yankee/manga/otaku boy. I never wrote any of this to help you. I don't care about convincing you. I'm gonna answer your next batch of questions, and then I'm gonna probably ignore you. This post is about helping the OP... not your ability to try and start an argument, keep it going and cross examining.

    The source articles are in my text books. Again like I said...you're not worth the time to dig them up. I studied under the eccentric Mike Phillips and his crew at Sunshine Coast TAFE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIaCgSkowdE - there's a link to check out. 4:02 thats the guy that taught me everything. There's the real source.

    Lipolysis is the fat burning mode I'm talking about. Its done through the Aerobic system. I just call it that because its easier for clients to remember it. Any damage to the muscles or body in general is going to raise energy consumption during repair. Delayed onset of muscle soreness is the micro damage of these fibres. The more damage = more soreness= increase metabolic rate= increased lipolysis.

    When you start to not receive doms as much, it usually means you have become more efficient with the movement pattern because of neural adaptation and of course the muscle fibres adapting to the work load. If you continue to do the same workouts, you'll eventually plataue and go down in your progress because your body no longer has to keep guessing. A change of stimulus is needed. Whether its increased load, leverage, angle or movement speed etc. And this is not to be mixed up with over training and under eating. That's even worse.

    Regarding the weightlifters, there can be an element of nutrition playing a part. But in this case, their training is sport specific. They're doing power movements with already very efficient patterns. The muscle building style of training the OP wants is hypertrophy. The power lifters are probably doing some cross training with some strength and hypertrophy. But power movements are ironically not as damaging to the muscles as hypertrophy. It uses creatine more than lactic acid associated with hypertrophy.

    "Feeling the burn" is the anerobic/lactic acid threshold - thats the common 10-12 rep ( around 70% of max) hypertrophy training everyone's familiar with.

    These power lifters are basically 1-2 reps at max force per set - then they rest for 5-6 or minutes -- check out the girls and do it again. That does not do as much damage to their muscles compared to hypertrophy (yes if they screw up the exercise, yes it will do damage but thats not what I mean) Its working the creatine system mainly.

    But anyone doing hypertrophy 5-6 times a week is screwed.Unless they start doing Roids...

    2 maybe 3 times max a week is what I recommend. Cardio and core inbetween.




     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2013
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  32. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    Woah now, it's a personal attack this time

    It's not my intention to start an argument, its an attempt to get at the source of the truth. I'm not saying the bolded argument is necessarily illogical but it does have an element of "broscience". It's a perfectly logical progression, but what it's missing (or at least what I'm looking for) is a scientific basis. I've yet to see any study that directly correlates soreness with growth or activity (or by necessity adaptation. I.e. soreness = adaptation and necessarily no soreness = no adaptation), and that's what I'm asking for.

    It's individual, but there are some people that are almost never sore, particularly on a strength based program (lower reps usually in the 3-5 range), that still experience hypertrophy or fat loss depending on their dietary choices, independent of whether or not they get sore every time, sometimes, or never.

    It's understandable if this was in a specific textbook that it would be a pain the go digging up the information, but that in itself is part of my problem. I can't find anything similar to it online. Most sources claim the opposite
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2013
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  33. mikeespinmusic

    mikeespinmusic Rookie

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    Stop backpeddling and embrace your well deserved insult....savour it. *Shakes Fist*

    Just because you can't find it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist (or hadn't existed).

    I'm done. Goodbye.
     
    #83
  34. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    I wouldn't consider it backpedaling since from the very beginning I asked for a source on the material.

    You're right, just because I can't find it doesn't me it doesn't exist. It does however mean it's not freely available knowledge which suggests either it's a special secret of your training organization, or it's not true (at least in the way you've explained it)

    Enjoy life
     
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  35. fullpolyserve&volley

    fullpolyserve&volley New User

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    Looks fairly easy to me... you're very good at holding onto your beliefs and wording ways to try and discredit information... you'd make a good criminal defence lawyer...

    http://caloriecount.about.com/forums/fitness/over-training-cause-weight-gain

    http://www.shape.com/fitness/workouts/9-reasons-skip-your-workout-sometimes

    http://chriskresser.com/why-you-may-need-to-exercise-less
     
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  36. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    Seriously?

    Are you even following the part I've been questioning and asking for a source? Because I was under the impression it was about DOMS, not overtraining


    Next lets actually look at the sources. One is a forum conversation not unlike this one. The other two are articles that provide no citations for their information. So if I actually was denying claims of overtraining's existence or effects, this would be pretty inadequate for actually proving something. Going back to my actual objection about the earlier statements regarding this particular subject, it was more at the statement "training too hard eats muscle" which is on one level different than what overtraining is. Under recovery (I.e. lack of adequate nutrition and sleep is a bit different from overtraining) is what I took this to mean but this was mostly a semantics thing

    But yes, I would have made a good lawyer. But please, what belief am I irrationally trying to hold on to? Because you have me confused
     
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  37. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    My two cents..

    You will repeatedly hear that its 'impossible' to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. And this is because "they' wil say that fat loss comes from caloric deficit and muscle gain comes from caloric abundance.

    However this is not entirely true. And you can see this quite easily as people with chemical enhancement very easily gain muscle and lose fat.

    Why? Because on steroids your bodies chemistry changes. Your body becomes quite willing to use your fat for energy and very willing to build more muscle.

    Steroids don't change the fundaments of how the body works - so much as make various processes more likely to happen. Your body because less 'stingy' with its fat deposits. And it becomes far more 'anabolic' with regards to muscle growth -willing to put more resources into muscle growth instead of fat storage. Steroids aren't 'magic' so to speak. They don't violate the laws of thermodynamics..

    Once you understand this you will see that for BADLY out of shape people its not impossible to lose fat and gain muscle a the same time. The protein they intake gets shunted to the muscle - but they use both the carbs they are eating and the fat they already have as an energy source.

    However the better your condition - the trickier this is. So most bodybuilders/fitness models just concentrate on one at a time.

    As a tennis player - the easiest combo for an improved body is to just concentrate on fat loss while on a resistance program. Do this by

    1) Limiting carbohydrate consumption (I would shoot for 100grams a day)
    2) Limiting your eating periods (intermittent fasting - go say 16 hours without eating)

    This is the easiest approach..but not the only one. Certainly counting calories/macro nutrients MIGHT work. But its exceedingly difficult and more then likely will put you in a caloric deficit of such proportions that you will just lose fat and muscle.

    The problem witht he macro nutrient 'counting' approach is that we aren't very good at figuring out how many calories we eat or how many we use during the day.

    Your body OTOH KNOWS how many calories it needs - and if fed right will 'count' for you. This is the homeostatis theory of weight loss/gain.

    The reason why your body tends to 'run out of control' is that we are eating alot of stuff that didn't factor into our evolutionary history like processed wheat. It throws our internal counters off.
     
    #87
  38. limitup

    limitup Professional

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    I'm doing just fine monitoring what I'm eating and using My Fitness Pal to track it all. It's no problem at all. On the other hand, I can't imagine doing what you propose above. 100 grams of carbs a day and I would be dragging big time - no way I'd be playing competitive tennis. And not eating for 16 hours? I've heard of this fasting thing, but literally everything you read says it's best for your body to eat small meals every 2-3 hours. Fasting for 16 hours goes against literally everything I've read during my research the past few weeks ...
     
    #88
  39. peoplespeace

    peoplespeace Semi-Pro

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    Speaking of what is indicative of what, i would venture that ur last comment about weightlifters IS NECESSARILY indicative of the absence of the level/depth of knowledge that u otherwise seem to portray urself as having! :)
     
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  40. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    Say more please as I'm not sure what you mean

    Is the implication I know nothing because:

    A: I said there are weightlifters that train 6+ times a week
    B: they are working harder, longer, and more frequently than anyone in this thread
    C: they don't lose muscle solely as a result of training in this way
    Or
    D: lack of adequate nutrition leads to loss of body mass (of which muscle is included but not alone) in these athletes

    Admittedly this was a sarcastic and loaded question, which was answered pretty well IMO, but I'm missing what part of this is indicative of lack of knowledge? Too many absolutes for you? Or are you hinting at drugs?
     
    #90
  41. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

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    http://www.alanaragon.com/an-objective-look-at-intermittent-fasting.html

    Here's what's meant to be an objective look at intermittent fasting but meal frequency is addressed in it as well

    tl;dr studies behind the eating two to three hours idea has mixed results and isn't necessarily the ideal. Also IF is that great

    If you wanted to look at pro-IF articles with scientific citation, you might look up Martin Berkhan and Leangains.

    There's also this article by Kurtis Frank (aka silverhydra) which doesnt have any specific citations but generally speaking Frank is pretty good about the science behind things (of course you dont have to take my word for it, but the website examine.com has reviews of a bunch of supplements and the studies associated, and Frank is one of the masterminds behind the site)

    ttp://www.silverhydra.com/2011/03/in-defense-of-fasting-why-it-wont-kill-you-and-why-you-should-stfu-until-you-try-it/
     
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  42. mikeespinmusic

    mikeespinmusic Rookie

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    I agree with fullpolyserve&volley.You'd make a dam good lawyer that likes attention and isn't satisfied with any information given to you. Even if its from a registered professional.................. You should go into politics. Its a like a zoo or a playground free of intellect. A place where people can ramble on for hours, days, weeks, months and years about stuff - slightly changing it each time to suit them. You'd fit in there. Don't take it the wong way. There's good money in it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
    #92
  43. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

    Joined:
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    Why promote this blogger? How is he such a great resource? This dude might have a more primitive website but is far more ripped.

    http://www.leangains.com/

    But anyway the beauty of nutrition and diet is you don't have to take anyones word for it. If you want to try IF you can. You can check things out yourself rather then going with 'theory' all the time.

    Granted theory can stop you from doing something absolutely bat **** crazy but not eating for less then a day really doesn't fall into that category.
     
    #93
  44. peoplespeace

    peoplespeace Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
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    539
    Yes, b and c! By comparing how weight lifters (power lifters) train to somebody training to build bodymass ur comparing apples and bananas. The former have little hypertrophy and therefore dont need the same r&r time as a person building musclemass and can therefore train more frequently and dont run the same risk of overtraining. This is so elementary and the fact that u didnt know this is indicative of ur lack of any serious knowledge basis. Its like bad poker players, they may have the right clother, sun glasses and attitude and even make some good plays but sooner rather than later they will make a really amateurish play which at once reveals serious cavities in his knowledge that u can then exploit!
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
    #94
  45. greg280

    greg280 Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
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    wow, whether you dudes like each other or not, seems to be some great info being tossed around so i thank you for that!
     
    #95
  46. Itagaki

    Itagaki Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2009
    Messages:
    509
    I dont take it the wrong way. Frankly i'd considered law as a career for a long time, but in the end the actual study of it just wasn't as interesting to me. And to be perfectly honest, it's not about the attention here for me, it's the discourse and learning. Argument might not always be the best avenue for the latter, but it tends to be a lot more interesting (greg280 seems to like it). I legitimately would like to see the source material for what you're saying, but again I understand if it's not worth your time (this is just an internet discussion anyway :) )

    Please don't take this personally as well, I understand that you are a professional in the training industry, but my experience with trainers and the information thrown around in the US is that while there are certainly good ones, the vast majority don't really know what they're talking about and the spread of misinformation is prevalent (the existence of more training certifications than I can count count adds to this, the ones I listed earlier as examples are generally speaking the better ones). As such i'm loathe to instantly accept new information without some sort of source material for it. From other posts i've seen you make, I do believe you know what you're talking about, but i've just never seen or read the direct correlation you've put forth earlier.

    I only posted Aragon's article because he provided citation, and it was the easiest I could access on my phone. Generally speaking from the scientific stand point Aragon is a good interpreter. Though Berkhan's physique alone adds a bit more substance to what he's talking about.

    Agreed, not eating for a 16 hour window (half of which is probably spent sleeping) is hardly batsh!t crazy

    I'm gonna go ahead and respond here, but generally speaking I dont think you really know what you're talking about at all

    First off, I didn't make the direct comparison that bodybuilding (or mass training in general) = powerlifting or weightlifting. You somehow came to that conclusion based on your faulty interpretation of the discussion it seems

    Powerlifters =/= weightlifters, two different sports and training methodologies. Though there are similarities, they are separate. Two, what makes you think there's little hypertrophy? Just because it isn't the sole focus of their training in the same manner as say a bodybuilder does not preclude the event from happening. It also does not mean it is never something they consider. Moving up a weight class for example, they'd want to put on as much quality muscle mass and strength as they could no?

    In fact, plenty of powerlifters train their assistance movements in the same manner a bodybuilder might.

    Next, are you really going to suggest that training with near maximal weights on a more frequent basis puts them at significantly less of a risk of overtraining? The pursuit of maximal strength and power has no concern for overtraining? Seriously? Are you even aware of how a lot of people training for hypertrophy do it? A lot of advanced athletes SPECIFICALLY trying to put on mass often do so by splitting up the body on different days, I expect it's a lot easier to avoid overtraining in this manner because some body part is always resting (compared to the more nervous system taxing of full body and other compound movements). It also allows for shorter workouts if you know what you're doing. Although anecdotal, I actually do know a couple of bodybuilders and even though they train frequently (as in 5-6 times per week), it's usually very short (under an hour each time, sometimes even 30-45 minutes depending on the focus).

    Lastly, i'm not really sure what your issue with points b and c are. First off, they're very general points. Secondly, point B stands perfectly, they do train harder and longer than anyone posting here. Again, anecdotally my experience is they train more frequently (over 6 times/week, twice a day being common) than the people I know that are specifically training for muscle mass. Point C also stands in a general sense. They often do not lose muscle mass as a result of their training alone (nutrition, rest, and recovery methods change this greatly). Are you disputing these points truth or are you just caught up in your mistaken equivocation? The point and question regarding weightlifters was directed towards mike regarding loss of muscle mass as a result of training, if you HONESTLY think this has zero application to strength athletes such as olympic weightlifters, then you have no clue, period. Overtraining is hardly the sole burden of the seekers of mass.

    Quick Addendum (and this applies to mikeespinmusic too). There is a lot of fear-mongering in general for overtraining. I don't think training for mass 5-6 times a week necessarily leads to this either. If this is done stupidly (i.e. too many compound lifts too often or trying to hammer one bodypart too often) then yea, it can become an issue. An example of this being if someone tries to emulate the exact training method of a bodybuilder who is on drugs and stubbornly sticks with it. I think under recovery presents itself much more prevalently and is confused with overtraining. Actual overtraining I think is much more rare.

    Granted these points are general and situations vary case to case

    it's fun right? even if I or anyone else is wrong, in being corrected hopefully better knowledge is being spread. Of course mudslinging and insults without substance contribute nothing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2013
    #96
  47. OTMPut

    OTMPut Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
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    Once you adjust to fat burning, 100 gms a day carb is not going to be a drag at all. The adjustment phase could be harder for some carb addicts.
    I have played, lifted, hiked and run on <100-150 gm of carb a day. I did not find it a drag at all.

    Somehow i feel 3 meals a day at set times and even worse a meal every 2-3 hours is quite contrived. Eat when you are hungry. And when you stop eating junk (naturally your carbs will go down) and eat real food, you might not feel hungry often. You will find yourself IFing everyother day (heck, 7 PM dinner with a juicy steak + vegetables and 11 AM breakfast with 4 eggs is IF!).
     
    #97

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