How do you actually move up in rating?

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by GrandSlam45, Apr 24, 2013.

  1. GrandSlam45

    GrandSlam45 Rookie

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    I've only been playing USTA for a year now, and when I signed up, the computer rated me as 3.5C but I'm actually a strong 4.0. I've been playing in 4.0 leagues and winning the majority of my matches. I should finish the season with a winning record... is this enough to bump up my rating to 4.0?

    I noticed that other players, for example, had two seasons in a row undefeated... 9 wins 0 losses, and yet they remained the same rating. What does it take to move up?
     
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  2. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    If you are playing against 4.0 players and doing well then you will move up.
     
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  3. OnyxZ28

    OnyxZ28 Hall of Fame

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    If all else fails, you can also appeal your rating up.
     
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  4. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Just beat a couple of 5.0's in double bagels, I'm pretty sure they will move you up fairly quickly. ;)

    -Fuji
     
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  5. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    The simplest explanation is this. To increase your rating, you need to have match results that are better than the current dynamic ratings of the players involved say you should. This means winning a match by more than expected, or losing a match by less than expected.

    Correspondingly, to improve your rating a lot, you need to have the delta between the actual and expected result be large, or to continually keep doing better than expected even as your rating increases and the expectations for your matches become greater.

    The details are that it is far more than win/loss record that matters. Instead it matters who you play (and who you play with in doubles). If you happen to play weak opponents, or with a very strong partner, you may be expected to win by a lot so a close win could actually decrease your rating. This is one of the reasons why you may see players that go undefeated but don't get bumped up.

    If you were a 3.5C in the 2012 year-end ratings, and are now playing up at 4.0 and winning a lot, there is a high likelihood that you'd get bumped up, but it does depend on the specifics. If you happen to be playing weaker 4.0s or other 3.5s playing up, and doing so with a strong partner, your results may not be quite as strong as you think. Or if you happen to have any of your losses be to weaker opponents, that can offset some of the good results.

    If you are interested in knowing more specifics about where your rating might be, I can probably generate a report for you. See this blog post or contact me at computerratings@techrunning.com if you want to know more.
     
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  6. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    if your a 3.5C playing 4.0 and winning you will be bumped.
    Sorry but if you are a strong 4.0 you would not have a 3.5C either.
    Just keep winning and computer will do its job
     
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  7. GrandSlam45

    GrandSlam45 Rookie

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    Thanks for all the replies... this is great information. I've been winning, but not exactly kicking ass... many of my wins have been in tie-breaks. Sounds like I need to get some more clean wins and beat the stronger players to move up. Definitely something to work on!
     
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  8. IA-SteveB

    IA-SteveB Professional

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    Yep, in the words of Al Davis, "...just win, baby."
     
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  9. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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    First - You were rated as a 3.5C this year when you signed up or when you first started playing USTA? You don't get the "C" until you play matches against other rated players and establish your own rating according to the "C"omputer.

    Second - Your rating is not based on wins and losses. You can win a match and have your rating go down, or lose a match and have your rating go up. You can win all your matches and not get bumped, or only win very few matches and get bumped. What matters is the rating of the people you play against, and the score of your match.

    As an example, losing to a 4.0 by a score of 5-7, 6-0, 0-1 will probably raise your rating because the computer sees that you won 11 games and your opponent won 8. It doesn't care that you lost the overall match.

    Third - all that said, if you are playing in a 4.0 league and your opponents are actually rated as 4.0's (not 3.5's playing up) and you are competitive(with your scores not your win loss ratio) you will quickly get bumped to 4.0.

    Lastly - Just play and let the computer sort it out. I'm also in a similar position to you in that I am ranked 3.5 but everyone tells me I'm a 4.0 when I play them. At the end of the year I expect that I'll get bumped and that's just fine ... If by some chance I dont get bumped that will be just fine too.
     
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  10. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    There are only two reasons you should care.

    1) You want to play at a higher level and somehow your current rating is negetively affecting this ....

    2) It is important for your ego that you have a higher rating ....

    Either is fine, but the ultimate goal should be to become as good as possible and the computer will eventually determine when the time is right to bump you up.

    However, if all you really care about is getting bumped up ... then play as good an opponent as you can find and work like hell to beat them.

    Generally speaking the only surefire way to get bumped up is to play up a level and perform well. It works every time ... eventually.
     
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  11. spinorama

    spinorama Rookie

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    Next question: how do I actually not move up, and yet keep winning?
     
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  12. Nellie

    Nellie Hall of Fame

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    As suggested above, your dynamic rating changes based on computerized estimation of a score difference between your current level and the level of the opponent. So, if you have a computer rating in the 3.5 range and are playing competitve matches against computer rated 4.0 (not losing 6-0, 6-0), you rating will go up out of the 3.5 range (**even if you lose every one of those matches**). If you are a 4.0 and win every match at 4.0, you may not go up if you are having competitive matches.
     
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  13. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    Win 76 06 76 (even better would be winning a third set match tiebreak)

    Play only against self rated players or lower rated players who are playing up.

    Play doubles with people who have high ratings but aren't that good.
     
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  14. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Here in Norcal, third set is recorded as 1-0 for the winner, regardless of whether it's a full third (and what the set score is) or whether it's a match tiebreak. So it doesn't matter how you win the 3rd set as far as rating impact goes.

    We have our own version of tennislink though, so maybe this is specific to norcal. Do other sections differentiate for scorekeeping and ratings?
     
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  15. GrandSlam45

    GrandSlam45 Rookie

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    It's mostly ego. I'm one of the strongest players on my team, but on the roster I'm the only one who's rated 3.5, so on paper it looks like I'm the worst. Other than that, I don't care. I was just curious how the ratings system works.
     
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  16. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    It does matter a little bit now, because now you must have 75% of your team be of the nominal team rating (4.0) and only 25% of the team can be from the level below (3.5).
    It seems you can beat everyone at your level and not get moved up. If you want to move up, then play a few higher level tournaments. Even if you lose, you will likely be bumped up if the matches are reasonably close.
     
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  17. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    How do you move up? Stop leaking games.

    I see it all the time. A 3.5 doesn't move up year after year, even though she wins a lot at 3.5 and has decent losses at 4.0. But if you look at the 3.5 record, she tends to give up 6-8 games. IME, this is due to a loss of focus, leading to streaky play.

    Rather than just appeal up, better would be to work on the mental game when playing the lower level and try to hold opponents to 2 or fewer games per set. If you can do that, you'll move up.
     
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  18. heninfan99

    heninfan99 Legend

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    Playing competitively against good players/highly rated players.
     
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  19. lostinamerica

    lostinamerica Semi-Pro

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    Personally, I would like to move down a level. If you are at the top of your level, then you get invited by the best teams to play in the best events. You would get to play on the best tri-level teams, combo teams etc and the best USTA teams. Playoff atmospheres are awesome.
     
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  20. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Like some others I don't quite understand what you are claiming since you don't get a computer rating until a year end, not when you first sign up to play.

    It sounds like you started playing league in 2012 and played enough matches to get a 12/31/2012 3.5 computer rating, right? Wins and losses really don't factor into the determination of a year end computer rating, it is margin of victory and also yours and your opponent's dynamic ratings at the time of the match that matters.

    Are you now exclusively playing up at 4.0 or are you also playing 3.5 as well?

    Post a link to your tennislink stats if you want more definite answers.
     
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  21. Nellie

    Nellie Hall of Fame

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    This comment is so spot on. I start to feel sorry for weaker competition, and once I am up a couple of games, I start trading games to finish the set. Too bad my stronger opponents don't show such kindness to me in my total lopsided losses.
     
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  22. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    That's actually really interesting. I wouldn't have thought that something like that would make a big difference in USTA rating.

    Thanks for the info! :)

    -Fuji
     
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  23. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    I don't know that it is feeling sorry for opponents or just playing down to their level or a fading of attention which leads to those leaked games and it may be a mix of those things and more. In my last league doubles match we soundly beat the other team 6-1 in the first set where they only won their first service game after a number of ad-out opportunities were squandered by our team. It was clear that we were not at all in jeopardy of losing the match.

    Then with that set comfortably in hand we proceed to drop our first service game and let them hold to go down 0-2. We each just made a few lazy shots and had a double fault or two and ba-bing we're in the hole. Order in the universe thankfully set back in and we won the last six in a row but honestly that should have been a 1 and 0 victory or maybe 0 and 0 if we'd started as strong as we finished. The two games lost in the second set were definitely because of our mistakes and not due to the other team's play.

    The problem imo is that a lack of mental toughness to push through and beat a team 6-0 which should be beaten 6-0 will come back and bite you in the ass when you are up against a good team and you're up, say, 5-4 and serving for the match (or down 4-5 and trying to break to stay in the set). You've got to close the deal and shut the door against them and make solid plays and good decisions just like you do against the team you'd beat 6-0.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
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  24. GrandSlam45

    GrandSlam45 Rookie

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    Yes you are correct. This is a good example of how clueless I am/was about the ratings system. I thought the computer auto-rated me as 3.5 when I signed up, but what I've learned here is that it was a year end rating. I did poorly my first season because I was coming off a 4 year hiatus and lost a lot of matches or barley squeaked out wins against weak players. I should have explained this in my first post... my bad.

    Now I understand why I received the 3.5 rating. So my initial question was more about how to move up.
     
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  25. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    I'm no expert on moving up but I hope to move up for the first time this year end based on my 2013 results so far. I think you've gotten some good advice in this thread, namely play up and try to do as well as you can, particularly against good opponents. Also as much as you can try to dominate weak opponents at your own level by not giving away games when you are capable of beating them badly.
     
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  26. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    Yep, it absolutely makes a difference. The algorithm uses games won/lost, not the match win/loss, so there is a difference between 6-4,6-4 and 6-2,6-2 that is pretty significant. The scores I mention are likely just one break of serve and if you consistently get that break every match rather than letting it stay close, your rating could easily end up being a tenth or more higher.
     
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  27. asimple

    asimple Semi-Pro

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    I actually ended up losing one like this this year (6-7,6-0,0-1). I have lost 3 matches this year, but by game differential I have only lost 1 and barely at that. They really should use the W/L as well in their formula. I admittedly was close in ability to my opponents in these matches, but they were clearly more mentally tough which put them an easy level ahead of me.
     
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  28. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    Just keep playing. If you're really 3.5C, your rating won't change until the year end ratings come out in December. There's no way to change a C rating mid-season. If you're beating or even just playing competitively with 4.0 rated players, you'll be moved up for sure.

    Also, if you really are C rated and you haven't joined a 3.5 team, wait until there are 3 or 4 matches left in the season and join whichever looks like the best 3.5 team in the district/state. Play a couple matches for them then kick ass in the districts and sectionals.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2013
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