How far can Gilbert take Murray?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Moose Malloy, Jul 11, 2006.

  1. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Just read that this is pretty much a done deal(3 year contract)

    I think this is the biggest challenge of Gilbert's career. With Agassi & Roddick, he joined them when they had already accomplished quite a bit(Agassi was already W champion & former top 3 player, Roddick was in the top 5 & had already been to a slam SF)

    Murray is 19, currently ranked 36. He certainly isn't a sure thing like those players.

    Gilbert reminds me of Phil Jackson, someone who steps into a perfect situation & ends up looking like a genius when his players do what they are supposed to do. Now we'll see just how good of a coach he really is.
     
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  2. punch

    punch Semi-Pro

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    Well I think Murray has the talent to get up there, I think Gilbert will do a good job furthering Murray along, introducing some new tactics, etc.
     
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  3. clayman2000

    clayman2000 Hall of Fame

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    gilbert also joined up with murry at 19...the earliest of the three...he will make murray at top ten player...but to what extent i dont know
     
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  4. Marat Safinator

    Marat Safinator Banned

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    gilbert transformed roddick so i think he will do the same for the cocky murray, maybe he can give him some money to get a dentist. that would be an awfuly kind gesture of him.
     
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  5. chiru

    chiru Professional

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    i donno i think the phil jackson reference doesn't quite work out. when brad talks he seems to knwo what he's talking about, i mean when agassi took on brad, he wasn't exactly no.1 in the world. i say gil reyes and gilbert deserve all the credit (of course agassi too) in bringing agassi back up to champion status. with roddick, he was basically the raw material without the proper guidance, and i donno, i agree that this will be a different challenge and that this will be a good test for brad's patience. personally i odn't like murray at all, he's so negative on court, i donno if brad's ebuliant presence will change that much.
     
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  6. Marat Safinator

    Marat Safinator Banned

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    chiru your absolutely right about murrays negativity, i dont think that he will change that at all.
     
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  7. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Roddick was 20 when he joined Gilbert.

    No, but he was a former Wimbledon champion. While Murray's career best slam is a 4th round appearance.

    That would be impressive. He has a long way to go. If he fails to do that, Gilbert's reputation will go down a bit.
     
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  8. omniexist

    omniexist Semi-Pro

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    Should be a good move. Doesn't it seem a lot of these young phenoms aren't really progressing all that much?

    Well, it can't hurt I guess.
     
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  9. BaseLineBash

    BaseLineBash Hall of Fame

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    A ranking of 312 in the world last Wimby to a now 36 world ranking is quite a big jump! Murray is going places, he has the shots, the grit, attitude, blunt honesty and BG will help him with his ticker. Top 10 very soon my friends!
     
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  10. The tennis guy

    The tennis guy Hall of Fame

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    I think he can get to top 16 in 3 years. He has such different game, mix junk with touch and power, just plays so different. Top 10 would be tough because I am not sure if he can pass the likes of Baghdatis, Berdych, Djokovic, Monfils, Gasquet, Ancic. Not a lot of room left in top 10 in 3 years.
     
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  11. Lee

    Lee Guest

    Where is Murray going to go, 3 years from now? The answer is simple: Numero Tres, behind Federer and Nadal :D
     
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  12. TacoBellBorderBowl1946

    TacoBellBorderBowl1946 Professional

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    you have a good point Moose,

    He coached Agassi and A-Rod when they were reaching the peaks of their careers.

    Murray still needs to develop, Gilbert could take him to the top 20 in a year and top ten in 3.
     
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  13. serveitup911

    serveitup911 Semi-Pro

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    Murray can't go that far because he has no big weapons.
     
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  14. Wondertoy

    Wondertoy Professional

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    What did he do for Roddick? The way I see it, he confused the crap out of Andy by telling him to come into net more and serve and volley some because of his serve and size, he needed to attack more. So Andy's been slicing his way into net and coming in and now everyone is beating him! Now Andy is in a no confidence death spiral because Gilbert gave him the wrong advice. You cannot change his style of game and teach him to be a great volleyer at 20, you need to develop the attack game at 14-16! Brag was also the guy who told him to receive serve 10 feet behind the baseline. No one thinks more highly of himself than Gilbert. He is a mediocre coach and a good self promoter who just sold himself to the Brits who are desparate for a champion.
     
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  15. Phil

    Phil Hall of Fame

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    I recall the same thing being said about Hewitt. I wouldn't underestimate the mental aspect, which is, possibly, where Murray has somewhat of an edge already. Being a smart tactician can get you somewhere today, in an era populated largely by players who don't know how to build a point.
     
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  16. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    Gilbert didn't particularly have any big weapons either...but he's smart, and smart tennis will go a long way. Also, it is never to late to develop a weapon either. I think this partnership will be very interesting to watch unfold.
     
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  17. FEDEXP

    FEDEXP Professional

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    All I know is, hopefully (and I know many here like him on air) I won't have to listen to him on ESPN? Any chance?
     
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  18. serveitup911

    serveitup911 Semi-Pro

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    I'll add to my previous point. Murray has no big weapons and is mopey. Phil, Hewitt had two weapons - mental toughness and speed. Murray seems to have neither of those.
     
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  19. Phil

    Phil Hall of Fame

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    "Mopey" doesn't really matter. Sampras was "mopey" and it didn't seem to hurt him. From what I've seen, Murray has some mental toughness and he's smart-two things Hewitt has. He also has better groundstrokes. We'll see-I'm not expecting miracles, but if he gets in shape and gets motivated, he could possibly jump a lot of places this year and next. I can see Top 10.
     
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  20. jings

    jings Professional

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    Murray seems to blow hot and cold, not helped by injuries and loss of momentum, but to date he's been patchy. Gilbert's very positive attitude can only help in this department I think. As to no weapons etc, he hits plenty hard enough when he wants to and if you watched the demolition of Roddick at Wimbledon this year you can see his all round game is pretty strong. No question the basics are in place. Even J mac thinks so. On paper it seems a good choice all round.
     
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  21. ChiefAce

    ChiefAce Semi-Pro

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    I agree, Hewitt brings more to the table when you compare him to Murray. Is it too late to progress and develop weapons........no but we'll see what happens. He won't be top 10 unless he gets more firepower.
     
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  22. monologuist

    monologuist Hall of Fame

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    I think Gilbert will take Murray into the top 10, possibly top5. Murray has a lot going for him; more than many give him credit for :
    -He has an excellent and consistent 2-handed backhand, capable of quite a variety of pace, angle, and spin for a backhand that is so limited, inherently.
    -He has an excellent backhand slice. This was the first shot I noticed watching him...his slice is better than 90% (or more) of the top tier ATP. He can keep it very deep and low with good pace, or cut it short and angled, Federer-style. Most importantly, he knows how to use it while contructing a point, again, Fed-like, not just as a bail-out defensive shot.
    -His forehand has potential, although it seems to be a bit consistent at this point. It is certainly not a dominating shot, but I think he can easily improve it. He seems to trust a it a little less than his backhand presently, which may be part of the problem.
    -His serve has potential as well, IMO. He can get into the high 120's and 130's on his first serve; not bad for such a beanpole-like physique. His motion looks nice and smooth...if he gains some strength, and his body fills out a little, I think his serve will only improve in power. Consistency seems to be lacking in his serve at this point...chalk that up as #1 on his list of things to work on.
    -He seems to be an excellent returner....I was very impressed by his returns against Roddick at Wimbledon this year. He knows when to attack and when to return conservatively. For now, his return game somewhat offsets his inconsistent serve.
    -I love his passing shots. He is not in the same league as Nadal or Monfils in court coverage, but he seems deceptively quick, and has a nose for the ball. His passing shots always seem very controlled and accurate on both wings. Along with his backhand (s), and his returns, I rank his passing shots as one of his greatest strengths.
    -Defense : As I said before, I think he is deceptively quick. He doesn't have world-class speed, but he moves well and anticipates well. Some work on his fitness and strength will improve his retrieving abilities, I believe, and along with his ability to pass and lob, defense should be an area of strength for Murray.
    -Transition and net game : This is an area where I think he is well beyond his young peers, with the exception of Gasquet. Murray clearly is comfortable using the whole court, and has excellent hands at the net, not surprising for a Brit. I'd like to see him attack a bit more in fact, as he seems content at times to counter punch.
    -Tennis IQ : Here is where he is head and shoulders above all of the young guns, and most older guns for that matter. Murray posseses the rare gift of seeing how things will unfold a step or two ahead, knows how to contruct points using his extremely well-rounded array of shots, and has been called , repeatedly, a smart "match player". In other words, he is adept at improvising, and adapting to match situations as they unfold, changing tactics when need be, a sign of true tennis intelligence. This I believe, as many do, to be his greatest "weapon", one that is more rare and potentially more lethal than a huge forehand.
    -Passion for winning, mental toughness : These are two aspects of Murray's game that have been lauded by tennis "experts". However, it seems that his confidence is easily shaken at this point, and when he is in bad form, the passion and the toughness slip away too easily. But at heart, I believe this guy has some fire; and in matches, he knows how to feed off of it to carry himself to victory. THis is, again, an all too rare trait in today's ATP. Unfortunately, I think at this point, he is not maximizing his mental toughness and tapping into the fire in his belly, mainly due to the fact that his awful level of conditioning leaves him helpless, late in critical matches.
    -proficiency on different surfaces - Murray posses the type of game that translates well to all surfaces. Grass and hardcourts are a given for him; if he can improve his fitness, clay becomes a much better possibility.

    ...so it is clear that the absoulte greatest hole in Murray' game is his fitness. His endurance is paltry presently, and while he has a great frame for a male tennis pro, it is still in an awkward, gangly, adolescent phase. The boy needs to put some meat on his bones, put on his running shoes and head for the hills Agassi-style. If he has more confidence in his body, I believe he will be able to maximize his potential for mental toughness, and develop the killer instinct necessary to take it to the next level.

    If Gilbert can encourage Andrew to do the necessary work off the court, I think he could take him far. I also think he will do a good job preparing him mentally and strategically, as those are the two areas that he is known to possess the most wisdom in. All in all, I think he's a great choice for Murray, and it shows that he wants to take things to the next level, and hiring a coach that has "championship experience" is indicative that he may be ready to get serious.
     
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  23. tarheels2323

    tarheels2323 Semi-Pro

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    Maybe if Gilbert can change Murray's mental game (and by change I mean totally re-arrange) the can propel him into the top ten for a while. However, I don't see Murray as a potential top 5 player and if he does get into the top 10 he probably (without radical adjustment) won't be able to stay there. Like someone else already said, he doesn't have any big weapons so he would need to develop in that area as well.
     
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  24. AJK1

    AJK1 Hall of Fame

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    All he will do for Murray is suck money out of his Bank Account!
     
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  25. illkhiboy

    illkhiboy Hall of Fame

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    Agassi was on a downward spiral when he hooked up with Gilbert. Ranked 32 and his results were very inconsistent. Gilbert stabilised his results. Same with Roddick. He was ranked 10 I think. Had just lost in the first round of the French and had a poor record on grass coming into that season. Amazingly he won at Queens beating Agassi for the first time and reached Wimby semi's losing to Federer. Thats a big improvement!
    I agree though, that Roddick and Agassi had already had a few accomplishments. Murray's best result is probably his victory in San Jose. Interesting to see what magic BG can do with him. Perhaps none, but it should be interesting nonetheless.
     
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  26. Aykhan Mammadov

    Aykhan Mammadov Hall of Fame

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    Gilbert can't take him far, he can take him backward only, as in the case with Roddick.

    Gilbert will kill his talent and understanding of the game. This is the end for Murray.
     
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  27. omniexist

    omniexist Semi-Pro

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    I'll concede that Murray is definitely a thinker out there. Against Roddick he outmaneuvered him by a mile. Very interesting to see him devise his gameplan and blunt Roddick's power.
     
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  28. Woodstock_Tennis

    Woodstock_Tennis Rookie

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    If BG could help any player I'd think it would be murray. They're both thinkers out there on the court, with bg scouting his opponents and coming up with game plans I think he could take murray very far.
     
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  29. TXKiteboarder

    TXKiteboarder Rookie

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    well, i heard on bbc that they will be offering him nearly 500K Euros, so I am sure that will buy alot for a year.



    I personally would like to see him coach Baghdatis. I think they would an aowsome choice since Baghs just need that "extra" push to make it near the top, while Murray seemed to require alot more work
     
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  30. scotus

    scotus Legend

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    Boy, then how did Roddick win the U.S. Open and become the #1 player under Gilbert's guidance?
     
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  31. Wondertoy

    Wondertoy Professional

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    Roddick was already playing that well before Gilbeert got on board. Why do you think he is not considered for the job again?
     
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  32. malakas

    malakas Banned

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    Very small chance this will happen.Marcos,is not so good financially.He still owes big to the Mouratoglou academy.I think that last year he couldn't even afford having his coach all-year round.:|
     
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  33. arosen

    arosen Hall of Fame

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    Murray's biggest problem is his mental stability. He seems to go quickly from blowing the other guy off the court to totally losing it. Maybe Gilbert can make him lighten up a bit, Murray could use a better 'tude.
     
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  34. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Looks like I(& a few others) were wrong. Murray & Nadal are changing what I thought was necessary to get to the top in todays game. Defense seems to be more important than offense nowadays.
     
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  35. TGV

    TGV Rookie

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    I was convinced of Murray's abilities after watching him beat Roddick at Wimbledon last year. It reminded me of Federer's 2003 demolition of Roddick (which was Fed's breakout performance). Right now, he looks like top 5 in ability. The ranking should catch up sooner or later.

    This is a great observation, Moose. It is almost like in NBA where, gradually defense came to dominate as athletes got better and better (until they changed the rules a couple of years ago to help the offense).
     
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  36. Nick Irons

    Nick Irons Semi-Pro

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    Gilbert is a fab coach; the man just knows tennis. Comparing him to Phil Jackson is a disservice; Jackson stepped into a sitchy with Michael Jordan and Shaq/Kobe (and the Refs in Game 6 against the Kings), 3 of the most dominant players in ths history of the game.

    Why Gilbert get's such a bad rap from the armchair tennis community is a mystery. He is a tennis zen master; a guru of the sport. What does he have to do to get respect around here? Coach yet another player to win another Grand Slam ? Even Agassi has stated that Brad Gilbert taught him how to play the game.

    Murray has beaten Roddick (2) and Roger Federer; this isn't a fluke.
    The young man took Rafa 5 Sets at the Aussie and was obviously exhausted (Welcome to the ATP Tour kid)

    He's been to 5 finals in 15 Months and has won 2 of them.

    I believe Murray will not only go onto greatness, but will reach the final of a Major this year. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I like him.
     
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  37. norcal

    norcal Hall of Fame

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    Nostradomus Phil.
     
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  38. yonex90

    yonex90 Rookie

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    Gilbert and Murray will end up in the top five by the end of the year easy.

    Roddick would be a better player today if he could have stuck with Brad. Roddick's lack of success is his own fault and firing Brad came from the same part of his brain that say's "I dont need to learn how to do anything well but serve" and "I will leave quick movement on the court to players like Federer, Nadal, and Hewitt" and "I can't believe Murray has beat me so many times"

    Murray will be the next new player to win a Major.
     
    #38
  39. fastdunn

    fastdunn Legend

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    Who is "he" you're refering here ?

    Murray is currently #13. And current top 10 is not exactly a group of folks
    who strike me as solid top 10 talents excapt of course Fed, Nadal and maybe
    Nabandian...

    IMHO, Murray can be top 5 in a hurry... but he'd better hurry... while
    top 10 is pretty weak, IMHO.
     
    #39
  40. TheNatural

    TheNatural Legend

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    Gilbert might do alright with him as Murray is already good technically, so Gilbert doesnt have to worry muich about 'fixing ' his shots. He can just babble and tell him to be mentally strong. Murray will naturally improve anyway regardless of who coaches him.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2007
    #40
  41. The tennis guy

    The tennis guy Hall of Fame

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    Well, many people like to jump on bandwagon, but not me. After Wimbedon last year, Nadal was going to replace Federer; after US Open last year, Roddick was getting closer to Federer; after just defended his title from last year (he beat both Roddick and Hewitt last year at SAP), Murray was going to be next No. 1. I just don't buy those sudden realization.

    I don't judge player by one tournament. After 2004, I was convinced Federer was going to dominate on tour for years to come; even after great 2005 from Nadal, I was convinced he would not challenge Federer for No. 1 without drastic change to his game. Now, I am not convinced Murray will get to top quickly or stay there. I'll judge his game after 2007.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2007
    #41
  42. fastdunn

    fastdunn Legend

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    Well, I just noticed your post (that I replied) dated back in July 2006.
    (So ignore my posting, I just though you did not know his current ranking..)


    Back to the point,..., I think Murray has interesting game but I wouldn't
    participate in debate on whether he can challenge Fed any time soon.

    About Nadal, I predicted he would give Federer some trouble couple
    of years ago simply based on the match up with a lefty.
    At that time, we didn't have many left-handed notable players (maybe
    still we don't have many...)
     
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  43. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    He hit big forehands, that's about it.
     
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  44. DiabloTS

    DiabloTS Rookie

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    so how did he get the big fh anyways?
     
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  45. rafan

    rafan Hall of Fame

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    Simply by his incredible ability to return shots the way he does I think Murray will really take off within the next three years. As Peter Flemming said after the Nadal match in Australia he needs to control his negativity which takes up far too much energy. He tends to worry too much about each lost point instead of just getting on with the next one. This will change no doubt as he matures more. It is incredible to see the change in Murray just within the last few months - thanks to Brad Gilbert - and there will more progress to come.
     
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  46. Ethan04

    Ethan04 Rookie

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    Murray got all the resources he could possibly get. if he end up achieving nothing, he would be a disgrace. so far he hasn't accomplished what henman has accomplished, especially at wimbledon.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2007
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  47. defensive4

    defensive4 Rookie

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    Murray keeps getting better. It's looking good.
     
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  48. omniexist

    omniexist Semi-Pro

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    I'm not so convinced just yet about Murray. I think he'll be battling for no. 3 spot with Roddick & maybe Nadal at best.

    As for No. 2 spot that would be a looooonnnggg stretch.
     
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  49. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    The way he hits his stroke has completely changed. Before he hit through the ball and much more flat. Now he hits with a more low to high motion.
     
    #49

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