how fast do you have to hit the ball to hit a winner?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by pushing_wins, Jun 22, 2013.

  1. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    Last edited: Jun 24, 2013
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  2. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Is the lob being taken and hit as an overhead smash, or being allowed to bounce? After the bounce, it can still be hit as an overhead smash if it bounces high enough, or by a groundstroke. Is the player hitting it as a forehand by running around it if it is on the backhand, or hitting it as a backhand in that case?
     
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  3. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    regardless of the stroke, what is the min speed required if you are right on the baseline near the center of the court?
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2013
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  4. tennisfu

    tennisfu New User

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    Drop shot, maybe 20 mph. Sorry, had to say it.
     
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  5. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    no he is quick, he will run it down, lob, retreat to the baseline.
     
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  6. HerrFederer

    HerrFederer Banned

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    about 10 mph, back hand slice winner that lands just over the net.
     
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  7. ProgressoR

    ProgressoR Hall of Fame

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    smash it to his face
     
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  8. GoudX

    GoudX Professional

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    On a down the line winner an average speed of 53mph would beat a player who hugs the baseline and takes 1 second to get into position.

    (Shot Distance / Time To travel) = Speed

    (78ft / 1 second) = 53.182 mph

    Accounting for the loss of speed at bounce and air resistance this probably means an initial speed of faster than 85mph.

    Remember that there are better angles though, and that wrongfooting an opponent will delay their reaction, and the necessary speed becomes much lower.
     
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  9. ProgressoR

    ProgressoR Hall of Fame

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    an atp player probably wouldnt be bunting back lobs so in reality it takes this guy more than the ATP 1 second
     
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  10. LeftyRighty

    LeftyRighty Rookie

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    Faster than the other guy can react lol.

    Really if you place your shots good enough and move the person around, it wouldn't take much more that good placement to hit a winner, even at slow speeds.

    It's not like you have a speed gun out there and can read it on every shot as winner target practice during a match. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the point
     
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  11. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    It's also generally harder when you have to create all your own pace. Is bunting it back all he can do? If so my preference is to take the net and hit overheads and easy volleys - lower risk shots.
     
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  12. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    right on. if you can beat the opponent in the head (meaning you can hit toward opposite of where your opponent is expecting) even a casual stroke will be a winner.

    if the opponent has enough time to hit back a bunt with control you are giving him a little too much time. practice drop feed and hitting with pace with good control.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2013
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  13. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    thanks

    the speed quoted on tv is intial speed or avg speed?
     
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  14. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    I think the question is not valid because you should not be thinking "winner" if you are hitting from your baseline and opponent has recovered to the center of your possible shots. I think Brad Gilbert would call this a low percentage play. If you have a ball in you wheel house and you are on the baseline, then I suggest think time for an aggressive shot which could be one of many options: 1: Hard and deep with lot s of top CC to get a weak reply (basic shot), 2. Hard and deep DTL with top DTL - especially if this is you opponents weaker side, 3. wide angle top CC - only advise this if you are right up on the baseline and not 3' or more back, 4. short slice to force opponent to hit a low ball.

    If you can make contact 3' or more inside the baseline, then start thinking even more aggressively such as winner DTL, approach shot, drop shot, short wide angles, or hard CC drive.

    I you are 4.5 or below, I would make 3' inside the baseline your green light to blast. If you are further back, think aggressive shot to put opponent into trouble. But, if you are back and opponent has hit a quality shot, think rally ball to reset the point - go with height and depth.
     
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  15. North

    North Professional

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    Just out of curiosity, given the name you use, is this hypothetical baseline lob bunter you, by any chance?
     
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  16. 10isfreak

    10isfreak Semi-Pro

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    Power is way overrated.

    ATP players need to hit big to prevent their ATP opponent from taking the lead during the rallies... but as amateurs, there are MUCH smarter ways to win a point than sheer power. As someone pointed out, hitting from well behind the baseline doesn't give you big chances to win the point outright... relatively to your skills, it takes enough to make this a low percentage play. When the rally is neutral, find a way to make your life easier. Be picky on the balls you choose to attack instead.

    If you are closer to the net, angles are easier to get. Same if the ball is higher than the net, but ot so high it's above your head...

    Even pushers, moonballers and other crafty fast runners have their weaknesses... use them!
     
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  17. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    whats the most satisfying way to beat a pusher? hit a winner at 85 mph for me.

    however most players cant hit at 60mph. thats why pushers win, i guess.
     
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  18. fuzz nation

    fuzz nation Legend

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    Go to the net and have your way with 'em... Works for me.
     
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  19. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    A volley winner can be hit at less than 20 mph, and the baseliner can never touch it.
     
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  20. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    And if you're glued to your own baseline, you can drop shot and lob combo your opponent 6 times, and you last drop shot, or your last lob, at 20 mph, will be a clean winner.
     
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  21. Aurellian

    Aurellian Semi-Pro

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    Wrong question to ask. You don;t need power. Placement is much more important.
     
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  22. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    #22
  23. 10isfreak

    10isfreak Semi-Pro

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    I prefer building a smart point where I end up just placing the ball in the empty court. I feel it's more satisfying than hitting huge winners because it does to pushers what they are trying to do to you. It's almost arrogant of me, but when an opponent has good footwork or a great forehand or else, I'd like to beat him on his terms.

    When you manage to break down the main quality of your opponent, he generally falls apart mentally. Only very competitively minded people hold on despite the very bad situation... and, believe me, even pushers can mess everything up. What happens in your head influences what happens on the court and someone who feels like the match is slipping away and that their game is falling apart will make these two things likelier to happen.

    Doing that to a pusher is a wonderful feeling. My friend stopped pushing two years ago when I did exactly that three matches in a row... then he adjusted and the match-up became more even anew, but that's part of the fun, isn't it?

    In the list of things that explain why pushers win, I wouldn't include power. I used to hit much harder than I do now and it never was enough to consistently outplay a good pusher. It was enough to demolish nearly everyone I faced, but not a pusher, which is why I no longer try to tear holes in my opponents by hitting harder.
     
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  24. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    great post that saved me the trouble. :)
     
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  25. johnchung907

    johnchung907 Rookie

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    Sigh... if only everyone could hit like that I would be so happy! :). It would be nice to have a guy who hit's around 60 mph average like me. Ha actually I found one, we were blasting balls 60-80 mph today (some people have questioned this groundstroke speed on forums before but people who actually saw us play were amazed. They said it was 60-80) Anyways, for me to hit a winner... Well, 70 mph if I hit an extreme angle (close to or painting the lines) and, 80-90 (yes the speed sounds outrageous but it's not ALL the time) for not as an extreme angle.
     
    #25
  26. HughJars

    HughJars Professional

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    Ridiculous question.

    How long's a piece of string?
     
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  27. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    i can also hit 80 mph off an 80 mph serve

    can you do it off a 5 mph moonball?
     
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  28. johnchung907

    johnchung907 Rookie

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    Ha, high balls are no prob for me even though I use modified eastern. In fact, I would say I even hit it harder off a moonball (80-90 for sure) then I would at something say around waistheight (60-70 usually)
     
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  29. ProgressoR

    ProgressoR Hall of Fame

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    I asked this of my coach, he looked at my racket and said about 40 ft should do it.
     
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  30. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    you're not hitting 90. sorry.
     
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  31. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    he is almost as deluded as that 110 mph frying pan serve guy in the other thread..

    don't you just LOVE this place, though? :)
     
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  32. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    Almost...but the more I think about it...serving guy is deluded squared.
     
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  33. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=441074

    so in a year, you mastered the high forehand put away

    how do you hit it? on the rise? air forehands like fed?

    lukas kubot?
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2013
    #33
  34. johnchung907

    johnchung907 Rookie

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    I take it on the rise and air forehand like fed now.
     
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  35. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

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    i have been working on that for yrs. still cant seem to get it right.

    could you do a video?
     
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  36. johnchung907

    johnchung907 Rookie

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    depends, what grip do you hit with? If modified eastern or eastern sure, I'll post a vid up
     
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  37. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    I don't think this can be made into a math question.

    But if you're hitting drives and your opponent is lobing, I think it's a mistake to try to hit harder and harder. At really high levels it's a great advantage to be at the net, but not so much at other levels. So, hit a short ball to bring him to the net. Now see how well this guy volleys and smashes. I don't picture many moonballers being too effective at the net.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2013
    #37
  38. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    I agree but would be hilarious if moon ball guy could volley. Yet I'm picturing a frightened face.
     
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