How has Nadal's injuries inflated his nearest competitors' careers?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by DRII, Apr 27, 2013.

  1. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    My point is despite all you say above, Murray is NOT a HC specialist. He has a game that translates well to grass.

    That is like saying despite his Wimbledon titles, Nadal is a Clay specialist, since his resume his heavily clay loaded. That would be an insult to Nadal, who has a great game that translates very well onto grass courts, he has been outright the second best on the surface during his era, and his game translates exceptionally well onto slow HC also.

    I don't see why you think that these top players are surface specialists. They have great games that can yield fantastic results on all surfaces, with Murray having less success on clay as the sole exception.
     
  2. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Forget about "specialists". Once again it really doesn't matter. They got their best results on hard (that's a fact especially for Murray) and proportionally to those overall results, they fared badly vs Rafa. That's the only point I'm making.
     
  3. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    You completely ignore Murray has beaten Nadal at the USO and AO. Now that he won the USO, Wimbledon finalist and Olympic gold, he has built that confident/belief that he can win the big one. I just don't see how you can write him off just because of the h2h. He's not getting older, past him prime like Federer but only 26 who's been progressing since having Lendl on his side.

    I'm not Murray fan but can't stand the hate he's getting.
     
  4. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    I know the point you are making, I am not calling you out for that.

    Just calling Federer, Nadal, Murray and even Djokovic 'specialists' is an insult to the four of them.
     
  5. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    I'm not ignoring anything. I'm only saying that despite having won more titles on hard court, more masters on hard, and played more slam finals on hard, Murray doesn't have a winning head to head vs Rafa . Which means, he hasn't fared vs Rafa as well as his records could have led us to expect. And obviously it is even more true of Fed.
     
  6. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    That doesn't mean anything.

    Nadal would be a LOT more confident against Federer for one, and the other thing is there's no guarantee Fed would've kept up his level for the final.

    Look at 09 USO, you yourself have admitted that Fed played worse in the final than the sf. In 07 USO you also admit that Fed played worse in the final than the qf...

    Look at RG11, Fed was in better form than Nadal, but what happened in the final?

    As for Murray beating Nadal, well that's possible, but I doubt it would've happened in 2012. Nadal owned Murray in 2011 USO, in fact he beat Murray in RG11, WIM11 and USO11, yet for some reason you think Muzza would've beat Rafa in AO12. Wishful thinking.

    Tsonga beat Nadal in a WIM final? Possibly, but I doubt Tsonga would bring his A game in such a big final, especially when the grass is worn, Rafa would be the heavy favourite.
     
  7. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Yeah, I agree he's definitely getting younger...
     
  8. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Goat of hypotheticals.
     
  9. Hawkeye7

    Hawkeye7 Professional

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    Injuries are part of the game.
     
  10. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    How has Federers never quitting a match and 53 majors appearance streak deflated his nearest competitors careers?
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2013
  11. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    If you want to start your own thread with an inverse hypothetical, then do so. However, I don't think that thread would have near as much relevance! Nadal has been injured far more than the other members of the Big 4, and thus any possible impact of Nadal's injuries is far greater than that of the others...
     
  12. Sentinel

    Sentinel Bionic Poster

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    Let's dedicate this thread to John Lennon

    Imagine if Tsonga didn;t have injuries and he actually had some dedication and trained hard.

    Imagine if Monfils wasn;t a clown. Imagine if Tomic :D wasn't a brat. Imagine if Glubis did not party all night.

    Imagine if Murray actually believed in himself.

    Imagine if Roger did not have a mental block against Nadal.

    Imagine if Roger had a double-handed backhand when he played Nadal. Imagine if Roger had Nole's backhand when he played Nadal.

    Imagine if NOLE had known several years back that he had a gluten deficiency. Where would Nadal be ????
     
  13. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    silly retort!

    injuries are a tangible occurence and their effect is wholly evident! not some nebulous criteria you just posted!
     
  14. TheF1Bob

    TheF1Bob Banned

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  15. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    Take all your if and butts and put them in one hand.

    Then crap in the other hand.

    Tell me which one fills up first.
     
  16. Chanwan

    Chanwan Legend

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    We're talking 12 slams and he would have won 90-95 percent of them? In case you don't know, that means 11 slams, including two CYGS.
    Was he injured at the Australian Open 2008, when Tsonga blasted him off court? (6-2, 6-2, 6-2 as far as I recall). I guess not. So he would have won the next 11 straight slams??? Wow. Just wow.

    So a few weeks off the tour in 2009 (French Open to NA HC season) meant his peak was stunned after 2010 rather than after 2012?

    1. Let's not forget, he was actually playing two warm up matches prior to Wimbledon and decided not to play only after the (tough) draw came out. He was effectively only out for one tournament and was almost gonna play it. The rest of his injuries that season were all fairly minor and something all players struggle with from time to time.

    2. The only evidence of Nadal playing worse in 2011 than in 2010 is Djokovic. No Djokovic, Nadal wins as much (possible more) than in 2010. He certainly made a lot of finals (10).

    3. Nadal felt he was playing better than ever in 2012 and stats support than he indeed had his greatest clay season in terms of dominance.

    4. Clearly, he's nowhere done yet. This seven month injury break (including a three month training block on the court from November onwards) has imo served to rejuvenate him and may allow him to remain longer at the top. Obviously, we can never really tell the effect, but he does seem pretty close to his normal standards (six finals, 4 wins - best start of a season ever for him).
     
  17. Ehh

    Ehh Banned

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    Rod Laver's success is inflated because Nadal wasn't born yet.
     
  18. Chanwan

    Chanwan Legend

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    No it's not. We can never know whether Nadal had won tournament X had he participated/not been bothered by some injury issue.
    All we can say is, he would have had a better chance.
     
  19. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    I've been trying to drive that point through for ages. Rafa's finals per season:
    2004: 2
    2005: 12
    2006: 6
    2007: 9
    2008: 10
    2009: 8
    2010: 9
    2011: 10
    2012: 5 (but he only played half the season)
    2013: 6 (and we have hardly started clay season...)

    So, his 3 peak years in terms of finals are 2005, 2008 and 2011. In 2011, Rafa was fresh from winning 3 consecutive slams and he was playing at his highest level. The only thing that happened that year is that he hit a wall in the person of Djokovic (he and everyone else for that matter). Rafa made 3 consecutive slam finals in 2011, exactly like 2010. Without Djoko he would have repeated his 2010 perf. I'm tired of dealing with clowns claiming that 2006 was Rafa's peak when it was the absolute low point of his career by any standard.
    I should add that 2010 and 2011 are the only seasons when Rafa made 3 slam finals.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2013
  20. Chanwan

    Chanwan Legend

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    Exactly, I should modify a bit though. He might have won three slams, we cannot know, but he would have been in a good position to do so.
     
  21. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    The only slam that he missed that he would have been a favorite for is Wimbledon 09.
     
  22. tudwell

    tudwell Hall of Fame

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    It's still impossible to come to any useful conclusions about how someone would have done if not injured.
     
  23. sbengte

    sbengte Legend

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    Beat me to it, that too in the inimitable Senti-style :D
     

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