How Strokes are Taught 2!

[TennisCoachFLA]

Limpinhitter, you are also summing up why I focused in on Brian's video. Not that his corrections of the tucked elbow and the boy's racquet head were not great. They were.

But experts get caught up in forcing every kid into the same latest dogma. The pat the dog is now a focus for boys at that facility.

As we saw in the video, the boy and parents focused on the term and the position as the cure all, and not understanding the logic behind the reasons. That many times leads to hitchy strokes.

Another reason why I am not a fan of showing kids detailed video analysis of themselves. They tend to pick out one or two position corrections and practice them over and over. They can end up with some robotic strokes that are not highly functional under the pressure of a tournament.

I prefer to know the correction in my own mind, then devise a way to correct the kid naturally. You can use feeds and voice prompts to have them get that elbow further out, shorten the take back, pull the racquet butt through. They may indeed end up patting the dog, but they get their in their own natural way.

 

[Limpinhitter]

An example...ATP vs WTA.

Cheers

In addition to the longer backswing, does anyone else see the WTA player's racquet being more in line with her forearm, thereby evidencing a weaker arm, and less ability to manipulate the racquet for the purpose of generating racquet speed and spin. In other words, from that position, I see the WTA player pulling the butt of the racquet straight through the ball. The ATP player looks like he's going to snap his wrist up and over the ball, because he can.

 

[tlm]

Which it brings another question to you Pros. Do you teach this? To all or only some of your students.
I want to hit with heavy top, both on FH and BH, but it is something that does not resonate with "Pros"here. I am told "you have enough spin already"....."why do you want to hit with spin?" which somehow re-introduced the "you should hit flat b/c you are old"discourse......

This is one of the big differences in conventional instruction compared to mtm. The mtm teaching really focuses on top spin and brushing up and across the ball. That is what really helped me when using Oscar Wegners video series, he was all about top spin. When he explained to brush the ball not hit the ball that really worked for me, it was not long and i could finally hit out and keep the ball in the court. This was a huge break through for my game.

I remember that when taking a lesson a year later with the pro at my club who is definitely a more conventional style coach. He asked me from the start why are you trying to impart so much top spin on your shots, he claimed that you will get enough ts from just going from low to high on your swing. Well when i used his method i did not have near as good of results, it would work sometimes but nowhere near as consistent.

Oscar explained the big differences in what he taught and what most conventional teachings used. He did not want you to use a big take back or early take back, just drop the racket and go from low to high. He also did not want you to follow through towards the net, he said to concentrate on going up and across the ball. Plus he said to not worry about getting the racket going to fast to early, instead he wanted the fastest acceleration at contact and on the follow through, not before contact.


The haters can say whatever they want but i took lessons and read instruction from every source available. I used the method that worked the best for me, i did not care who's name was on it. I remember when i first starting playing league tennis these guys who have been playing for many years would always ask me how do you get so much top spin. I would think wow these guys have played for way longer than me but can only get minimal top spin on their shots. Which of course leads to many unforced errors of either hitting the net or hitting long. It did not take me long to pass these players up.

Thats why i wish more people here who want to improve their game would try both methods and see what works best for them, some may respond better one way or the other. But do not listen to the haters here they are just to stubborn to change their ways.

 

[Ash_Smith]

All this talk of "pat the dog" got me thinking - "what do I actually focus on"

So...

 

[Ash_Smith]

and

Although stages 2 & 3 I combine and stages 4 & 5 also, so I tend to teach these as one step rather than two - keeps it simple.

Step four (triangle position) would be the MTM point of acceleration.

Cheers

 

[eliza]

SO that fact that girls and women are not taught TP is because we are weaker?
Quite frankly, I want to get that guy FH, not the girl.
TLM, I agree with you.
I played women who started more than 10yrs. ago, conventional method. They are still 3.0 (and they will be for life). Prior to my injury (d..it, I hope I will get back soon) I was actually having "fun" with them, and looping my FH at libitum, eehehehehehh. What I noticed, not one of them knows (yet) how to deal with it.
I truly believe that a woman CAN hit a WWFH, maybe supporting it with weight exercises to increase strenght....
But it is paramount that you coaches introduce this concept, and required drills, asap to them!!!!!

 

[eliza]

WOnderful Ash, thank you!!!!

 

[Limpinhitter]

Limpinhitter, you are also summing up why I focused in on Brian's video. Not that his corrections of the tucked elbow and the boy's racquet head were not great. They were.

But experts get caught up in forcing every kid into the same latest dogma. The pat the dog is now a focus for boys at that facility.

As we saw in the video, the boy and parents focused on the term and the position as the cure all, and not understanding the logic behind the reasons. That many times leads to hitchy strokes.

Another reason why I am not a fan of showing kids detailed video analysis of themselves. They tend to pick out one or two position corrections and practice them over and over. They can end up with some robotic strokes that are not highly functional under the pressure of a tournament.

I prefer to know the correction in my own mind, then devise a way to correct the kid naturally. You can use feeds and voice prompts to have them get that elbow further out, shorten the take back, pull the racquet butt through. They may indeed end up patting the dog, but they get their in their own natural way.

Thanks for your response.

Well, I started playing tennis in the 60's. I played juniors, some men's open tournies in the 70's and a bit of 5.0 league tennis in the early 80's. I've quit tennis several times only to reinvented my strokes each time I came back. I was out of tennis for almost a decade due to injury ("Limpinhitter). This time, my comeback is in the internet age. A blessing and a curse, perhaps. LOL!

My interest in this subject comes from my venture to convert my old school eastern stroke into a modern WW stroke. I think I have made some progress and have been hitting the ball pretty well in match play. But, when I took some video of myself for the first time, I could see that I wasn't doing what I thought I was doing. In particular, not only was I "tucking my elbow" as you put it, but, my forehand looked very cramped and my follow through was much shorter than I expected. I also found a lack of upper body rotation before contact seemed to be what was inhibiting my follow through. I wasn't getting my chest toward the target before contact the way I've seen others who hit a modern WW forehand doing. But don't get me wrong, I'm hitting the ball pretty well, and I'm pleased with my progress so far.

Nevertheless, I've tried several approaches to "uncramp" my forehand and get my body out of the way of my swing. I've tried setting up further from the ball, consciosly opening up my chest before contact, hitting with a straight(er) arm, pointing the racquet face to the ground on the backswing. The result, so far, has been a lesser forehand than my cramped, on edge, forehand.

So, I'm here trying to get a better understanding of the mechanics of the modern forehand in an attempt to fully metamorphose my shot. It could be that, for me, I'm better off continuing to perfect what I have. I'm not ready to make that call yet.

 

[tlm]

SO that fact that girls and women are not taught TP is because we are weaker?
Quite frankly, I want to get that guy FH, not the girl.
TLM, I agree with you.
I played women who started more than 10yrs. ago, conventional method. They are still 3.0 (and they will be for life). Prior to my injury (d..it, I hope I will get back soon) I was actually having "fun" with them, and looping my FH at libitum, eehehehehehh. What I noticed, not one of them knows (yet) how to deal with it.
I truly believe that a woman CAN hit a WWFH, maybe supporting it with weight exercises to increase strenght....
But it is paramount that you coaches introduce this concept, and required drills, asap to them!!!!!

It seems like i see mostly just the younger women players that use top spin with authority. There are some older players also, most of them played college tennis. The strength difference can be a factor between men and women, but it is really more about racket head speed and timing as opposed to raw strength.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

SO that fact that girls and women are not taught TP is because we are weaker?
Quite frankly, I want to get that guy FH, not the girl.
TLM, I agree with you.
I played women who started more than 10yrs. ago, conventional method. They are still 3.0 (and they will be for life). Prior to my injury (d..it, I hope I will get back soon) I was actually having "fun" with them, and looping my FH at libitum, eehehehehehh. What I noticed, not one of them knows (yet) how to deal with it.
I truly believe that a woman CAN hit a WWFH, maybe supporting it with weight exercises to increase strenght....
But it is paramount that you coaches introduce this concept, and required drills, asap to them!!!!!

I agree 100%. When you see forehands like Henin its obvious a women does not need to hit with such a huge take back. If you saw my 6.5 year old hit, forehand looks like Fed, not Sharapova. Why? I taught her that way.

Same with saying "throws like a girl". Thats only because of technique and repetition, not strength.

Do this experiment.....take a girl like my daughter who has been trained him to throw a ball overhand since age 3. Take a grown man and ask him to throw with his non dominant arm.

I guarantee you a well trained girl's throw will look perfect....and the grown man will throw "like a girl" at first with his non dominant arm. I can throw a ball a ton with my right arm, I throw like a girl with my left!

But coaches are what they are. Rick Macci flat out says on his forehand videos that you must teach girls different than boys.

 

[sureshs]

SO that fact that girls and women are not taught TP is because we are weaker?
Quite frankly, I want to get that guy FH, not the girl.
TLM, I agree with you.
I played women who started more than 10yrs. ago, conventional method. They are still 3.0 (and they will be for life). Prior to my injury (d..it, I hope I will get back soon) I was actually having "fun" with them, and looping my FH at libitum, eehehehehehh. What I noticed, not one of them knows (yet) how to deal with it.
I truly believe that a woman CAN hit a WWFH, maybe supporting it with weight exercises to increase strenght....
But it is paramount that you coaches introduce this concept, and required drills, asap to them!!!!!

Eliza, don't believe the many self-serving statements being put out here. When someone who claims to be a coach says <famous coach> was doing something else, but I teach differently, immediately your BS radar should go up. Or that <famous player> seems to be doing/not doing what I teach. It is all trying to criticize a publicly known guy or hang on to his coattails, with said guy being unaware of this and having never seen this "coach" in his life.

Same when someone says the pros should be doing something different than what they are doing - your first question should be: how many pros did you or your system produce.

Both boys and girls are taught to hit with topspin. Yet, on the WTA, the measured RPM is lower than the ATP. On the WTA, true kick serves are much rarer than the ATP (Sam exempted). It is not because there is a conspiracy out there. Don't believe the BS here that the high topspin and net clearance taught at low levels of play (where most of these coaches operate) translates into winning at the high levels. The people who know how it is are ones who have produced pros and run facilities where pros train. Slow loop topspin will simply be crushed at the pro level. I was watching the Djoker yesterday, and he combined topspin shots with crushing DTL backhands, which is the reason he has been winning recently. Of course even his flattish shots will have spin for consistency, but it is the ratio that he varies to squash the loopy FH topspin from Nadal which suddenly seems weak against him.

I would suggest you move away from thinking that coaches should control your evolution by suggesting this drill or that and then wondering if they are treating everybody the same, who is right, etc. Just watch how Francesca hits her topspin and copy it if you like. Or somebody else. It doesn't matter. These are actually proven real people with real skills, not people who make money by claiming their system is the best because the "establishment" has not produced a top 10 US player, etc. There are many many reasons for such things besides a 1-dimensional statement like the USTA does not teach the way I do or conspiracy theories like that. Ask them straight out to list the number of pros they have produced.

I would even suggest saving money and not taking lessons at all. Watch Tennis Channel, read this forum, watch free videos on the Internet, and play a lot of people, and let these "coaches" find somebody else.

 

[tlm]

Eliza, don't believe the many self-serving statements being put out here. When someone who claims to be a coach says <famous coach> was doing something else, but I teach differently, immediately your BS radar should go up. Or that <famous player> seems to be doing/not doing what I teach. It is all trying to criticize a publicly known guy or hang on to his coattails, with said guy being unaware of this and having never seen this "coach" in his life.

Same when someone says the pros should be doing something different than what they are doing - your first question should be: how many pros did you or your system produce.

Both boys and girls are taught to hit with topspin. Yet, on the WTA, the measured RPM is lower than the ATP. On the WTA, true kick serves are much rarer than the ATP (Sam exempted). It is not because there is a conspiracy out there. Don't believe the BS here that the high topspin and net clearance taught at low levels of play (where most of these coaches operate) translates into winning at the high levels. The people who know how it is are ones who have produced pros and run facilities where pros train. Slow loop topspin will simply be crushed at the pro level. I was watching the Djoker yesterday, and he combined topspin shots with crushing DTL backhands, which is the reason he has been winning recently. Of course even his flattish shots will have spin for consistency, but it is the ratio that he varies to squash the loopy FH topspin from Nadal which suddenly seems weak against him.

I would suggest you move away from thinking that coaches should control your evolution by suggesting this drill or that and then wondering if they are treating everybody the same, who is right, etc. Just watch how Francesca hits her topspin and copy it if you like. Or somebody else. It doesn't matter. These are actually proven real people with real skills, not people who make money by claiming their system is the best because the "establishment" has not produced a top 10 US player, etc. There are many many reasons for such things besides a 1-dimensional statement like the USTA does not teach the way I do or conspiracy theories like that. Ask them straight out to list the number of pros they have produced.

I would even suggest saving money and not taking lessons at all. Watch Tennis Channel, read this forum, watch free videos on the Internet, and play a lot of people, and let these "coaches" find somebody else.

Ya there is no doubt that rafas forehand is weak, he is only the #1 player in the world with 9 majors under his belt. Also he beaten fed many times with that weak loopy forehand. This is just one of many examples proving how little suershs knows.

Watching many women league matches has shown me how effective top spin is. The women that use it are in the minority, but i have rarely if ever seen them lose to the conventional flat hitters. When i see a women that use heavy top spin they are very effective, they give the old school flat hitters all kinds of trouble with their jumping ball. Plus when you figure in how many less times they hit the net compared to their opponent they are much more effective.

That is the biggest mistakes i see female players commit, they hit the net way to often. Why would that be? Because they think that they have to hit that flat to get enough power on their shots, which of coarse with their out of date grips+technique there is some truth to it. They are limited because they learned the old fashioned way, on some days when they are hot they will be successful. But with their low flat minimal spin technique they will never be that consistent. The players that learn to use top spin can hit out with confidence and do it day after day with consistent results.

 

[eliza]

First, I hope Macci is looking (Yandell tell him) b/c from the name is Italian too, and would not be surprising if he really thinks that girls should be taught differently. BOOOOOOOO!!!
I truly hope that's not true.
Second: Sureshs you know I LOVE Martina Navratilova and Francesca Schiavone, and for sure in my dreams I am just like them......but it takes more than look on to learn TS correctly, and to better yourself.
TlM you are right, I am aiming now at 5', not the 2-3 taught.....

 

[Limpinhitter]

First, I hope Macci is looking (Yandell tell him) b/c from the name is Italian too, and would not be surprising if he really thinks that girls should be taught differently. BOOOOOOOO!!!
I truly hope that's not true.
Second: Sureshs you know I LOVE Martina Navratilova and Francesca Schiavone, and for sure in my dreams I am just like them......but it takes more than look on to learn TS correctly, and to better yourself.
TlM you are right, I am aiming now at 5', not the 2-3 taught.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aWxy3THtWU&playnext=1&list=PLA1FA49905E29D0F6

 

[tlm]

First, I hope Macci is looking (Yandell tell him) b/c from the name is Italian too, and would not be surprising if he really thinks that girls should be taught differently. BOOOOOOOO!!!
I truly hope that's not true.
Second: Sureshs you know I LOVE Martina Navratilova and Francesca Schiavone, and for sure in my dreams I am just like them......but it takes more than look on to learn TS correctly, and to better yourself.
TlM you are right, I am aiming now at 5', not the 2-3 taught.....

Very good keep that net clearance high, this way you take your first obstacle out of the way the net. Work on increasing racket head speed, but also brushing up and across the ball. I think it is better for someone trying to develop top spin to not worry about depth at the beginning, concentrate on really brushing up the back of the ball. Even if your shots are loopy and not landing very deep.

Don't concern yourself with power or depth at the beginning, just concentrate on really adding heavy spin to the ball. You really need to get this brushing the ball with fast racket head speed down first. Once you become consistent at putting the heavy top spin on your shots, then you can work on hitting more depth and pace.

You will find with minor adjustments you can still use the heavy top spin but gradually hit a little more through the ball with a little less brushing. These are small changes, with a very small change of your swing path. If you start hitting to long then you have to brush a little more. But if your shots are to loopy and short you need to hit through the ball a little more.

But once you have this top spin ingrained in your swing you will be able to hit out with confidence. Which is what will really bring your game up tremendously, it is like being set fee to swing away, not constantly worrying about hitting the net or hitting long.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

suresh....please stop this. You are accusing me of making things up when I have provided proof and will do so again about Macci saying girls should be taught to hit flatter than boys....an actual video of him saying it.

Mr. Macci says girls should be taught a flatter game while boys taught topspin. The USPTA sells a video tape called "Developing Young Players" by Mr. Macci. "The way a boy should be taught and the way a girl should be taught are TOTALLY different".

On this tape and others he says, "the women's game is a flatter, cleaner game with less top spin. We teach the girls to hit more through the ball. Girls should be taught differently than little boys". This is a tape available to the public.

Here is the link to the tape on Amazon. In the description they even say "is there a way girls should be taught differently than boys?" Why is that question in the description? beacuse on the tape he says they should be taught differently.

http://www.amazon.com/USPTA-Developing-Young-Players/dp/B004KLQUIQ

And here he is saying it:

http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&rv=1&vidid=2316


Many coaches do teach girls to hit flatter and boys to hit more top spin. You and I may think its right or wrong, but it is common. Other coaches on here that deal with kids like Ash and Dave Smith will say the same thing, that many coaches think girls and boys should be taught differently.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Eliza, don't believe the many self-serving statements being put out here. When someone who claims to be a coach says <famous coach> was doing something else, but I teach differently, immediately your BS radar should go up. Or that <famous player> seems to be doing/not doing what I teach. It is all trying to criticize a publicly known guy or hang on to his coattails, with said guy being unaware of this and having never seen this "coach" in his life.

Same when someone says the pros should be doing something different than what they are doing - your first question should be: how many pros did you or your system produce.

Both boys and girls are taught to hit with topspin.

http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&rv=1&vidid=2316

 

[Ash_Smith]

Same when someone says the pros should be doing something different than what they are doing - your first question should be: how many pros did you or your system produce.

To answer your question, the basis for my system (RPT) has produced 14 players in the current top 100 ATP and 5 of the top 100 WTA. That's some pretty good odds in my book!

Cheers

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

First, I hope Macci is looking (Yandell tell him) b/c from the name is Italian too, and would not be surprising if he really thinks that girls should be taught differently. BOOOOOOOO!!!
I truly hope that's not true.
Second: Sureshs you know I LOVE Martina Navratilova and Francesca Schiavone, and for sure in my dreams I am just like them......but it takes more than look on to learn TS correctly, and to better yourself.
TlM you are right, I am aiming now at 5', not the 2-3 taught.....

http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&rv=1&vidid=2316

"The way a boy should be taught and the way a girl should be taught are TOTALLY different". Rick Macci.

 

[eliza]

Thank you, TLM. Yes, you are right, I am acquiring a freedom or confidence in hitting that is liberating.
And I am glad I brought up the sex standard issue.
I met a judge here who firmly believes in separated classes for boys and girls, why? Because if there are girls present boys feel stupid and they do not learn as fast as they could....Never heard such idiocy, even in the macho Italy!!!!
I am so glad I never took this c... from anybody, as hard as it is...Coaches, take the "prosciutto"out of your eyes, we want to learn TS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[tlm]

http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&rv=1&vidid=2316

Wow that is called getting owned sureshs, but i suppose you should be used to it by now. You make so many foolish statements that are proven incorrect so many times you have surely grown accustomed to it.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Wow that is called getting owned sureshs, but i suppose you should be used to it by now. You make so many foolish statements that are proven incorrect so many times you have surely grown accustomed to it.

What I do not understand is why he kept going after my credibility. I posted a video of Mr. Macci teaching a 4 year old without Quickstart. And now I post a video of Mr. Macci saying girls and boys should be taught totally differently.

Its not like I made statements about the man without providing evidence.

 

[ProgressoR]

its clear men and women and boys and girls develop and play a different game especially at the top level, at the rec level maybe its not so clear.

Is there a problem with teaching a different technique/game to boys and girls?

 

[Ash_Smith]

Other coaches on here that deal with kids like Ash and Dave Smith will say the same thing, that many coaches think girls and boys should be taught differently.

I look at it in two ways.

1) The womens game is clearly different, requiring different attributes and therefore different coaching techniques. The WTA game is flatter, with less pronounced topspin and so on. If you take this into account you would teach your young female players accordingly - hitting fuller with flatter trajectories (obvious technical mistakes like the one in my comparison photo excluded - I would never allow any player to have that backswing unless it was really the only way they could go!)

or

2) Could you train the young female to hit ATP style, more spin etc. She probably wouldn't be so successful if the WTA tour stays as it is now, but maybe in 10 years time the womens game will change and the young lady will be fully equipped to challenge for honours. Look at some of the Spanish girls, not particularly successful by world standards but Martinez-Sanchez, Llagostera-Vives and Medina-Garrigues play some of the most ATP like tennis. Could be in the future they will come through as the WTA develops.

Who knows. Sensible coaches will develop players for how the tour is now, radical coaches may second guess the future!!!

Cheers

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

its clear men and women and boys and girls develop and play a different game especially at the top level, at the rec level maybe its not so clear.

Is there a problem with teaching a different technique/game to boys and girls?

Like Ash said, many coaches believe they do need to be taught differently. Obviously the WTA and ATP games are different. There are other coaches that teach girls and boys exactly the same. And there are players like Henin whose forehands resemble ATP more than WTA.

Please do not get me wrong. When I said Macci teaches boys and girls a different way I was not commenting if he was right or wrong, simply stating his position.

 

[tlm]

What I do not understand is why he kept going after my credibility. I posted a video of Mr. Macci teaching a 4 year old without Quickstart. And now I post a video of Mr. Macci saying girls and boys should be taught totally differently.

Its not like I made statements about the man without providing evidence.

I have read nothing but true statements in your posts, we probably should all ignore sureshs. Obviously there is no hope for this guy, he just does not get it. He should go to the other thread started by jy, i wish they would all stay in that one. This way we could keep this one on track and they could tell each other how much they know everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

I have read nothing but true statements in your posts, we probably should all ignore sureshs. Obviously there is no hope for this guy, he just does not get it. He should go to the other thread started by jy, i wish they would all stay in that one. This way they could let this one stay on track and tell each other how much they know everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Interesting you say that. I did not realize that JY and BG and RM were involved in collaborations. Now I see they have several business arrangements together.

I see now why they so vigorously went after me as a team when I questioned their methods. And why they go after someone like Oscar who dares try to simplify the teaching. I must say RM seems to be changing very quickly. He is right about us not remembering each other in a way, he barely resembles the coach I used to work for. He was never into all that mumbo jumbo before, and he helped produce some of the greatest American players of all time. In October when I go back there it will be like Luke Skywalker trying to see if any good is left in Darth Vader!

 

[tlm]

Interesting you say that. I did not realize that JY and BG and RM were involved in collaborations. Now I see they have several business arrangements together.

I see now why they so vigorously went after me as a team when I questioned their methods. And why they go after someone like Oscar who dares try to simplify the teaching. I must say RM seems to be changing very quickly. He is right about us not remembering each other in a way, he barely resembles the coach I used to work for. He was never into all that mumbo jumbo before, and he helped produce some of the greatest American players of all time. In October when I go back there it will be like Luke Skywalker trying to see if any good is left in Darth Vader!

Ya i can only hope that they stay in their own post, they can talk all their over done scientific mumbo jumbo with each other and their groupies.

 

[eliza]

I look at it in two ways.

1) The womens game is clearly different, requiring different attributes and therefore different coaching techniques. The WTA game is flatter, with less pronounced topspin and so on. If you take this into account you would teach your young female players accordingly - hitting fuller with flatter trajectories (obvious technical mistakes like the one in my comparison photo excluded - I would never allow any player to have that backswing unless it was really the only way they could go!)

or

2) Could you train the young female to hit ATP style, more spin etc. She probably wouldn't be so successful if the WTA tour stays as it is now, but maybe in 10 years time the womens game will change and the young lady will be fully equipped to challenge for honours. Look at some of the Spanish girls, not particularly successful by world standards but Martinez-Sanchez, Llagostera-Vives and Medina-Garrigues play some of the most ATP like tennis. Could be in the future they will come through as the WTA develops.

Who knows. Sensible coaches will develop players for how the tour is now, radical coaches may second guess the future!!!

Cheers

Using your logic we will have the same disparity (with ample negative remarks by you guys on the lower speeds, lower abilities, maybe too high awards etc.) in ATP and WTP prolonged forever...............

Next time I find a coach, I will tell him I am a man with long hair.....

Anyhow, I love to read more about are strokes are taught. I will just add this: of one hour instruction, how much do you coaches reserve for actual play? How do you "divide"your time?

 

[eliza]

its clear men and women and boys and girls develop and play a different game especially at the top level, at the rec level maybe its not so clear.

Is there a problem with teaching a different technique/game to boys and girls?

Who posted, give a ball to a man and tell him to throw it with his non-dominant hand, and you will see him "throw like a girl"? Common, EVERYTHING is a matter of education and practice. The issue is that ignorance (do not take offence, I am using the term in its ethimological sense) and preconceived notions harm us......

FLA, one of these days we all should get together, so you guys can tell us the truth about all that fighting......I am starting thinking SUreshs must be a very famous coach in disguise.......

 

[maverick66]

Who posted, give a ball to a man and tell him to throw it with his non-dominant hand, and you will see him "throw like a girl"? Common, EVERYTHING is a matter of education and practice. The issue is that ignorance (do not take offence, I am using the term in its ethimological sense) and preconceived notions harm us......

FLA, one of these days we all should get together, so you guys can tell us the truth about all that fighting......I am starting thinking SUreshs must be a very famous coach in disguise.......

Here is the issue I see with teaching male and female players the same. The physical abilities of females is much lower. Most if not all can't accelerate a racket like a man. They are physically weaker so to give them the strokes of a man is a mistake as the ball wont have the same play on it.

They teach girls to hit the flatter ball due to the fact that it requires less racket head speed and physical play from you. Basically its easier to hit flat on your body. To hit heavy like the Spanish players do requires athletic ability. Guys that dont have it leave every ball short and get beat.

So the reason for it isnt mental or sexist its just strength levels.

The throwing example has nothing to do with it. I have not seen many girls who can throw a ball as far as a man. Could you find one girl that might be able to sure. But she would be an oddity not the norm.

I am also pretty sure Suresh is just a guy that loves to argue. He has done a decent job seems he has about 4-6 people upset with him.

 

[JohnYandell]

Guys I think you truly have found your thread.

And more good news--apparently I am involved in business ventures with Rick Macci and Brian Gordon. Please enlighten me what those are? I think I would look forward to them.

If you are refering to the fact they have both published articles on Tennisplayer, so have over other 50 coaches.

 

[tlm]

Guys I think you truly have found your thread.

And more good news--apparently I am involved in business ventures with Rick Macci and Brian Gordon. Please enlighten me what those are? I think I would look forward to them.

If you are refering to the fact they have both published articles on Tennisplayer, so have over other 50 coaches.

Good go back to the one you started.

 

[Ash_Smith]

guys, please keep it friendly and at least vaguely on topic. We lost the last thread to personal vendettas and lots of good discussion went with it. TCF and JY please take it somewhere else and allow the discussion of teaching styles and methods to continue.

Cheers

 

[SFrazeur]

Nice pic Ash. Shows it very well. Here is the lady whose stroke I like. My kid's looks a lot like hers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBioEMX2IdM&feature=related

It was written in a Tennisplayer article "Forehand Differences: Pro Women and Pro Men" by Jason Frausto that "Carlos Rodriquez studied high speed footage of Andre Agassi’s forehand provided by John Yandell and used it to reshape Justine’s motion."

-SF

 

[eliza]

Guys I think you truly have found your thread.

And more good news--apparently I am involved in business ventures with Rick Macci and Brian Gordon. Please enlighten me what those are? I think I would look forward to them.

If you are refering to the fact they have both published articles on Tennisplayer, so have over other 50 coaches.

JY, are you rubbing in? Honest to God.......

Well, please tell you friend Macci that there is an Italian woman here who is mad at him for thinking that girls have be taught differently. And that if he had not been so d..n expensive, I would fain prove it to him in person, in the company of my Babolat......

Maverick, Oscar says exactly the contrary: that TS strokes are easier on the body....
What do you think coaches all over the world?

 

[JohnYandell]

Ash,

Happy to stay out as soon as this point is clarified about my "business arrangements". Stop mentioning my name and attacking people I respect and believe me I will be very content to let you guys do your thing.


SF,

And yes. It was a very interesting experiment and proved that in the case of Justine, she could hit more of the ATP forehand. Probably the bigger change was on her serve, where Carlos used the high speed footage of Sampras. Going from a pinpoint to a platform turned out to be huge for her.

 

[eliza]

It was written in a Tennisplayer article "Forehand Differences: Pro Women and Pro Men" by Jason Frausto that "Carlos Rodriquez studied high speed footage of Andre Agassi’s forehand provided by John Yandell and used it to reshape Justine’s motion."

-SF

Hopefully I can reshape mine.....

 

[tlm]

Here is the issue I see with teaching male and female players the same. The physical abilities of females is much lower. Most if not all can't accelerate a racket like a man. They are physically weaker so to give them the strokes of a man is a mistake as the ball wont have the same play on it.

They teach girls to hit the flatter ball due to the fact that it requires less racket head speed and physical play from you. Basically its easier to hit flat on your body. To hit heavy like the Spanish players do requires athletic ability. Guys that dont have it leave every ball short and get beat.

So the reason for it isnt mental or sexist its just strength levels.

The throwing example has nothing to do with it. I have not seen many girls who can throw a ball as far as a man. Could you find one girl that might be able to sure. But she would be an oddity not the norm.

I am also pretty sure Suresh is just a guy that loves to argue. He has done a decent job seems he has about 4-6 people upset with him.

There is some truth to a lot of the women being limited by strength. But this does not mean all female tennis players. There is a nationally ranked player at my club that i hit with on occasion. She is 14 years old stands 5' tall and weighs 95 lbs. She hits the crap out of the ball, while using heavy top spin with good net clearance. How strong can a girl this tiny be? One of the reasons she is so good is that she uses the spin and extra net clearance for tremendous consistency.

A lot of this has to do with what level player we are talking about. It sure appears at the pro level that the women do need to hit flatter to have enough pace. But that has little to do with the average high school, or average college or club player. This is were these players could benefit a lot from learning to hit with more top spin. They don't have to hit mega top spin, just hit enough so they can get away from the net and be able to hit out with the spin keeping the ball in. They would be so much more consistent, which is what wins at the amateur level most of the time.

 

[JohnYandell]

Eliza,

You and I perceive things differently. I don't like it when people make false statements that relate to me. I am asking that be clarified. Again, stop mentioning my name and bashing people who aren't here to defend themselves and you guys can ride this thread to the next century.

As for Rick, again the irony! One of the big changes as he and Brian have described it to me is their discovery that some of young girls can hit the ATP style forehand and it's not a matter of strength. This has come out of Brian's research and their experimentation with what his technology showed about how the body actually works.

I think it takes courage and integrity to evolve and learn as a teacher. And on your forehand, yeah that could very well be possible.

 

[eliza]

Eliza,

You and I perceive things differently. I don't like it when people make false statements that relate to me. I am asking that be clarified. Again, stop mentioning my name and bashing people who aren't here to defend themselves and you guys can ride this thread to the next century.

As for Rick, again the irony! One of the big changes as he and Brian have described it to me is their discovery that some of young girls can hit the ATP style forehand and it's not a matter of strength. This has come out of Brian's research and their experimentation with what his technology showed about how the body actually works.

I think it takes courage and integrity to evolve and learn as a teacher.

Are you insulting me? Where are the false statement that were made by ME?
Where is the irony?

 

[Ash_Smith]

John

Don't take what I said the wrong way, there is no need to stay out of the thread, your input would be greatly valued in the discussions around technique and teaching styles. My point was that the personal stuff should be for elsewhere.

For the record I have never brought your or any of your colleagues into a discussion except to clarify a position. Please do not tar all in these discussions with the same brush.

Cheers

 

[JohnYandell]

Eliza,

If you read the posts FLA is saying that I have business with Rick and Brian and that's why I am defending them. That's not true, and I would like it clarified. That's it.

Ash,

I don't feel attacked by you. I just want to have what I say and do represented accurately. You haven't ever misrepresented anything. You and have no problem as far as I am concerned.

 

[JohnYandell]

And on the irony. It's ironic that Rick's thinking has evolved based on the "mumbo jumbo" work with Brian. And his view now is that there can be more crossover in the way the forehand is taught.

 

[maverick66]

As for Rick, again the irony! One of the big changes as he and Brian have described it to me is their discovery that some of young girls can hit the ATP style forehand and it's not a matter of strength. This has come out of Brian's research and their experimentation with what his technology showed about how the body actually works.

Maybe strength isnt the correct word but the racket head acceleration is greater in mens tennis. This much we can agree?

The mens game is different from women for a reason. For whatever reason I have only seen a handful of girls that hit with a good heavy ball. And even those cases it was nothing next to a male player of the same level.

 

[JohnYandell]

I think that with the ATP backswing you can still hit flatter or heavier. The idea is, whoever you are and how you want to hit, more available racket head speed is probably good.

A super fast ball is good. A super fast ball with heavy spin is good. A slower ball with heavier spin can be a problem depending on the level. So exactly how females who have evolved toward men's technique put it together will be a function of what those players do. But Justine shows something. Dementieva was also more ATP like. And more and more of the women have the strong opposite arm stretch, even if the backswing is still crossing behind them.

Most of the tour women could blow 99.9% of the men in the world off the court. Do the men tour pros have more racket speed? I think yes, but it's getting closer. Movement is probably a bigger difference.

 

[eliza]

Eliza,

If you read the posts FLA is saying that I have business with Rick and Brian and that's why I am defending them. That's not true, and I would like it clarified. That's it.

Ash,

I don't feel attacked by you. I just want to have what I say and do represented accurately. You haven't ever misrepresented anything. You and have no problem as far as I am concerned.

JY: your words were written to ME. I cannot care the less of names, and of WHO is WHOM. I use factual evidence (and a video is evidence) to prove or argue a point (that touches me personally). I did and will do this IN GOOD FAITH, WITH THE SOLE AND UNIQUE PURPOSE of discussing methods and approaches that I see around in the tennis industry. And with which I do not agree.
I am happy to hear your business is growing, but I regret it is not accompanied by same degree of humility. Even if this means confronting a "club player"(oh, how many times do I have to cope with the irony in those words) and explaining your position.
Legally speaking: I think we are entitled to discuss and criticize every and any book, video or info in any form published.

 

[eliza]

I think that with the ATP backswing you can still hit flatter or heavier. The idea is, whoever you are and how you want to hit, more available racket head speed is probably good.

A super fast ball is good. A super fast ball with heavy spin is good. A slower ball with heavier spin can be a problem depending on the level. So exactly how females who have evolved toward men's technique put it together will be a function of what those players do. But Justine shows something. Dementieva was also more ATP like. And more and more of the women have the strong opposite arm stretch, even if the backswing is still crossing behind them.

Most of the tour women could blow 99.9% of the men in the world off the court. Do the men tour pros have more racket speed? I think yes, but it's getting closer. Movement is probably a bigger difference.

OK here we can discuss: you mentioned for "whatever reason" in the prior post. You have all the technology to study and come with "THE"reason why few use TS. You yourself end with : "movement"....
So, could we now CIVILLY focus on "movement"for a moment?

 

[JohnYandell]

Eliza,

You commented on my post. Which was not directed at you and I then tried to clarify that for you. If you have taken offense you have mistaken my intent. Yes, we have free speech in this country. Which goes both ways. My point is that the only reason I jumped in here was that I wanted to have FLA clarify what he meant and set that record straight.

 

[JohnYandell]

That was Mav btw who said for "whatever reason," not me. But I think his point is probably correct. Pro women basketball players would kill a lot of guys who play really well.

But at the very top, male athletes have an edge. Who knows that may eventually change, but in tennis, if you watch the men practice with the women at the pro tourneys, the men have an edge in the speed and weight of ball and in their ability to cover the court.

But don't think women don't hit hard or with topspin. I watched Hingis practice from 5 feet away and sorry she'd kill the 5.0 guys at the clubs I belong to. And the spin on Henin's forehand was at times in the same range as the men--not Nadal now, but at times well over 2000rpm.

One of the big differences in the men's and women's games is the serve. The women tend to have a different style of motion, different ball position and spin characteristics. But then you have Henin and Stosur. I've sat with a few tour coaches and women in the top 20 and showed them video comparing the differences, and this is one area that fascinates me. Will more women serve like the men? Will it take a higher level athlete or is it techniuqe or both? So the game is always evolving, and as I have said before, we coaches will probably take some of our next great insights from some player who emerges and shows the way.