How Strokes are Taught 2!

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Ash_Smith, May 12, 2011.

  1. aimr75

    aimr75 Hall of Fame

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    A number of those guys you mention do a pat position of some form, some more pronounced, some less depending on grip and level of pronation from what i see.. but as you say, its not a pre-requisite to a great forehand.. as you noted, del potro doesnt do it.. he doesnt pronate in the takeback

    as you can see though, all stay to the right of the body.. even gonzalez with his huge takeback doesnt cross over like most WTA players

    [​IMG]

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  2. aimr75

    aimr75 Hall of Fame

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    and davydenko as well

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Aimr75, excellent pics! The ones of Safin and Davydenko are a surprise because I've seen them live and their strokes do look different, when seen as a whole, than those of Federer, Fish, Hass, Verdasco, who look almost like carbon copies of each other. As for Tsonga and Murray, those pics do show the racquet face partially down, but, I've seen the play live up close (Tsonga this year and Murray last year), and their strokes are definitely more on edge than the Federer group. When I saw Murray, it was in a loss to Fish, and their respective forehand techniques are very different.
     
  4. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    notice how the pic of Murry shows his racket more or less in line with his arm.
     
  5. ATP100

    ATP100 Professional

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    As crazy as this sounds, I have had the best luck with this type of person if they are tired and at the end of there stamina, when you start the lesson. In order for this to work, they have to be very motivated and very tough mentally. (obviously)
     
  6. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Great Pics Aimr 75. I still maintain that racquet face orientation at this point isn't the defining factor, it is merely a function of the arm position, the contraction of the elbow (in all photo's, bar Murray's*, the elbow is rotated down and in toward the hip) and the extension of the forearm away from the upper arm.

    I think if you teach the above charateristics the "pat the dog" may occur depending on the grip position, or it may not - like Del Potro.

    *Maybe this is part of the reason why Murray's forehand isn't as consistent as others when he goes for pace, his elbow contracts less than some and can therefore be less stable at impact. Just a thought!

    Cheers
     
  7. aimr75

    aimr75 Hall of Fame

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    well i think the pat position is achieved through pronating the forearm, hence why the racquet hitting face orients to a certain position.. the degree of pronation can be seen with the location of the palm.. del potro however does not do this, hence why his swing does not have this pat thing happening. Its more similar to what a WTA swing would do, but del Potro still keeps his arm to the right of his body

    [​IMG]
     
  8. eliza

    eliza Guest

    great pics, and analysis....
    Keep discussing....and get to the other strokes....
    thank you to all, immensely helpful for me.
     
  9. aimr75

    aimr75 Hall of Fame

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    The issue is quite possibly not the things youre trying to implement, but the time required to implement them successfully.. any small change or big change takes quite some time to get down. I dont know how much time youve devoted to one change, let alone all those changes youve mentioned, but its not surprising that a change in technique is giving you results that are worse initially than what youre accustomed to
     
  10. eliza

    eliza Guest

    agree. It takes time, and it is just great that you WANT to change...
     
  11. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    ^^^sure does take time, between 4000-5000 "perfect" repetitions!!!
     
  12. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Yes! Good point!

    Oy! I don't know if I have 5000 repetitions remaining in my lifetime.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2011
  13. eliza

    eliza Guest

    Just follow Toscanini's example: speed up the tempo!!!!
     
  14. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Sorry, this claim can not possibly be true. First of all Agassi is one of the players who does NOT use that style. He has no pat the dog. He keeps his racquet face very open.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXWks8yvRJQ

    Henin redesigned her forehand with a distinct pat the dog, racquet face parallel to the ground, the opposite of Agassi. Obviously her model could not have been Agassi.

    Funny how a writer of an article for a website owned by JY happened to say that video from JY resulted in something. If you are going to say someone used a video to change their stroke, perhaps its wise to make sure that strokes are even remotely close.

    Second of all, you can model a stroke using easily available You Tube videos. I do it all the time. My girl's serve is like Serena's and her forehand is like Henin's. Used free videos on You Tube.

    Coaches do it all the time. Sekou Bangoura used videos to mold his son's strokes. But you use them to get the stroke basics down, not to look at every minute detail.

    I have said all along, video overviews are great and useful. Detailed analysis using 10 cameras, etc....worthless clutter. All the videos anyone needs to see what pros are doing are available for free. And that fact bothers some folks around here.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2011
  15. eliza

    eliza Guest

    FLA my analysis could not be anything close to yours....that's why I have to rely on you coaches....but you know what? just leave JY to his lofty business.
    As you said, there are tons of videos (thank you BTW, I did not think youtube could possibly be a source), so let's use those.
    F.I. I bought a VHS (can you believe usta did not have a dvd??) for the serve. I keep watching Serena, but can I "imitate"her? No. Maybe because I am unable (and the comments on the video are very generic) to dissect all the elements that I need to work on....
    On the other hand I found very easy to follow the video of a certain coach, and finally got the "pronation"(with forearm movement to the right) that gives me more "edge"on serves.....
     
  16. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    The quote says "Carlos Rodriquez studied high speed footage of Andre Agassi’s forehand provided by John Yandell and used it to reshape Justine’s motion." Where does it say that he tried to have her copy his forehand in every detail?

    With John's permission I would be happy use tennisplayer.net video caps to show you how similar her preparation and back-swing is to Agassi's.

    -SF
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2011
  17. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Could you provide any sort written quote or video from Carlos that actually says any of this? You admit to being a "tennisplayer.net junkie" so you are not the best source for this discussion, no offense, just the truth. There was quite a bit of chatter about Henin's forehand revision, I am sure you can provide some documentation from Carlos.

    Henin's preparation and early take back are not what changed. The take back is with 2 hands, then racquet pointed up, just like every top pro. The changes occur later in the swing and do not match Agassi.

    Its easy to see Henin's forehand does not resemble Agassi's at all in its later stages of the stroke, and more resembles many other men instead.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2011
  18. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    eliza. Go to You Tube and search "Fuzzy Yellow Balls" and check out their video series on strokes. Simply excellent.
     
  19. Off The Wall

    Off The Wall Semi-Pro

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    I like 'pat the dog' for a couple of reasons. It discourages an arcing motion (no particular directonal vector) that a perpendicular racquet face would allow. It encourages low-to-high motion, a more forward contact point and it works with any stance.
     
  20. Ash_Smith

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    How and why does it encourage these things? :)

    cheers
     
  21. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    Double standard much? You've been spending a lot of time lately telling everyone what Macci does and does not do without any documentation whatsoever.
    Does she hit the ball like Agassi? No. No one said that. However, it would be ridiculous not to see the striking similarity both in fundamentals and in flare between her perpetration, back-swing and that of Agassi.

    -SF
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2011
  22. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Not true, I am the only one providing documentation.

    1. I said Macci teaches using regular balls, not Quickstart up to age 11. I posted video of how he teaches 4 years olds. And other posters like seminoleG have verified what I said.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kGRrtBTPF4

    2. I said Macci says boys and girls should be taught totally differently. Other posters said I made it up. Bam, a video of him saying just that.

    http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&rv=1&vidid=2316

    Your turn, please document Carlos saying he used Yandell's videos of Agassi.

    You are simply not being accurate. Agassi and Henin's strokes look nothing a like past the initial take back. Her preparation and early take back are NOT what she changed. In fact, it is hard to find a man's stroke who she resembles any less, because Agassi's stroke is different than most current top men. Had you said Fed, Djoker, or about 20 other pros it would make more sense.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2011
  23. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    In Macci's e-mail he says he does use quickstart.

    I teach an 8 year old on the 60' court with dead regular balls for feeding and low compression balls for play and live balls.
    "Quickstart" is not black and white. As for boy vs girl thing I don't know about that conversation.

    -SF
     
  24. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    I am. I've been saying from the start that the preparation and back-swing is where the similarity is most strong. I haven't mentioned a thing about the orientation of the racquet face at drop level nor the foreward swing.

    -SF
     
  25. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    This is how Agassi hits.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXWks8yvRJQ&feature=related

    This is how Fed hits.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCm6OIjbPr4&feature=relmfu

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inQvbT8uEGk

    This is how Henin hits recently.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBioEMX2IdM

    Come on pal, lets be real here. Henin's changes made her forehand more like Feds, Nadal's and other men. A totally unlike Agassi's.

    Her racquet face is just like Feds, etc. at the pat the dog position, Andre's totally different.
     
  26. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Stop, look at my last post. ALL top pros take the racquet back the same basic way. Henin did that in 2000, and does it now.

    The CHANGES occurred with the racquet face. Come on now, give it up. What you are posting is simply not relevant or accurate, she did not change her stroke to look like Agassi.
     
  27. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Not true. Quickstart is very black and white. He appears in ads for Quickstart. They advocate very specific racquet sizes, balls, court sizes.

    If you want a USTA grant, you MUST use the entire program.

    http://10andundertennis.com/equipment.htm

    Several posters have been to the facility, no Quickstart in sight. No one is paying him $300/hour to teach Quickstart, you know it, and I know it.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2011
  28. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    Do I know what exactly changed? No. I do not have clear video of her pre 1999/2000. I posted the quote. We are not on the same page. I'm talking about preparation and back-swing and your going on about other things. And it is quite easy to see the striking similarities that I have mentioned.

    -SF
     
  29. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    You can say the same wrong thing over and over and it still will not be right. I think you know you are wrong as it is clearly obvious.

    Agassi was clearly not the model for her 2010 forehand.

    Here you go, from 2000. Her forehand racquet face was open. Now closed like pat the dog.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxkGBR-YjzM

    The changes made her stroke look nothing like Agassi's, in fact the opposite.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2011
  30. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    Yes. There are strict requirements to get a grant. No shock there. However, in real life, actual use of quickstart it is not so clear cut. Quickstart is the progressive use of age and skill appropriate racquets, courts and low-compression, felt and foam balls, etc. I use Quickstart with kids and adults. You use the combination of tools that work best for the student to learn and improve. People will pay $300/hr for lessons that involve qucikstart when someone with a great track record like Macci tells them it is the way to go.

    -SF
     
  31. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    He does not use it. SeminoleG a poster whose daughter has attended several camps there asked and looked about a month ago. Others have gone and checked. You can go and check today. It ain't there.

    Gotta run, enjoy your day.
     
  32. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    Seriously!? When did I ever talk about the similarities between her forehand at drop level and Agassi? I never did. Feel free to have the last word on it.

    -SF
     
  33. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    But that is what the changes were. The major change is that her racquet face is pat the dog at drop level, keeps it compact. And Agassi does not do this.
     
  34. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    Give me the real name of a real, verifiable person. And no. I'm not making a 10 hour drive over there.

    -SF
     
  35. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Next time I am on the junior board I will ask SeminoleG to contact you. He seems like an open dude, he invited me and my daughter to train with him and his girl when we move down there.

    I have no problem proving the things I say. And if someone posts a video that shows me I am mistaken about something, I certainly will apologize.

    Take it easy, nice day in FL. Time to head out.
     
  36. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    SF,

    Well you tried. Carlos and pat Etch talked about it all on a cable TV show in an interview at Indian Wells a few years ago. I subsequently did some additional match filming for them and sat with them and Justine to look at the video. But of course I must be lying and have made all that up.

    You are right about the preparation. As many posters have pointed out there are many variations of the so-called dog pat, and some players do more than others. The change for Justine was in the hard turn with the full arm stretch, and also keeping the backswing more on the right side. These are the biggest issues in my opinion in the men versus women on the forehand.

    The change in the serve was even more dramatic. Let's face it though no matter what the reality FLA is not going to admit anything. He's proven that over dozens of posts.

    He has absolutely no regard for facts. I think that's the thing that is most clear here and he thinks nothing of making things up about me, Rick, Brian.

    People can either see that or they can't depending on their own agendas. Like I said, eventually the character comes out when people persist in blind attack. Since he just makes it up as he goes, he probably assumes everyone else in the world operates the same way.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2011
  37. eliza

    eliza Guest

    FLA thank you for telling me about the "YFB", I will check it out.
     
  38. Off The Wall

    Off The Wall Semi-Pro

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    First, the perpendicular racquet face can pivot around the elbow, which can be anywhere from behind the body to along side, to, well,...it varies too much. Thus, you can get arcing.

    Otherwise, from the pet-the-dog position, your arm is slightly bent with the hand palm down. If you bring the hand forward (a good directional line), it is low (only way to go is up/across) and the hand naturally turns with the palm facing the net in front of the body.
     
  39. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    A person has to be blinded by bias or ignorance not the see the striking similarities. He admits that her preparation and back-swing are more so like those on the ATP, but cannot see it as coming from Agassi video provided by your work as that would be giving you and the site credit.

    -SF
     
  40. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Post the video of that interview and let us interpret it. Post anything from Justine and you together. If you met and filmed, she didn't implement the changes you claim she did.

    You make zero sense. Henin's stroke went from resembling Agassi's in 2000 to being totally different by later in the decade. She ALWAYS had the hard turn and full arm stretch. Go You Tube every single top 10 ATP or WTA pro. Those are the things that are COMMON is every one of them.

    The pat the dog is what Henin CHANGED to make her stroke UNLIKE most WTA players and UNLIKE Agassi. Certainly that "cable show" must have video. There is ZERO anywhere on the internet no matter how you try to Google it.

    Proof it because what you claim makes no sense concerning the forehand.

    At the very best she MAY have sat down with you but did not make the changes you say she did. And once again, you are playing games with the facts. You are taking credit for her forehand.

    I wish to goodness we could get Carlos, Justine, and you in a room right now. I guarantee you the truth would be much different in regards to what influence you actually had because the changes she actually made are not what you say she changed.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2011
  41. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    This is Henin is 2000. The 3:27 mark and a few others show her takeback and full arm stretch. It shows her open racquet face.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuCkNAcuZsw

    Here is Henin is 2010 after the change. Her arm stretch is actually less or equal, certainly not more. The major change is her using full out pat the dog, racquet parallel to the ground to shorten her take back.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBioEMX2IdM

    JY, if you are going to take credit for someone's forehand changes, at least know the actual changes. You may have met with Henin and Carlos, I am sure they asked a lot of people when changing a stroke like that.

    But she sure as heck didn't implement what you say she did.
     
  42. nabrug

    nabrug Rookie

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    Why should JY lie about this? I don’t see it. There were other people over there. If you would make this up and you are discovered the consequences will be huge. So why would he risk that?

    It sounds very plausible to me. The only visual learning I recognize is the learning of elite players. They are so familiair with the movements that they can implement a new element much easier in the rich library they already have.


    Read: http://www.dana.org/news/cerebrum/detail.aspx?id=23500

    “Discovery of the AON has revitalized interest in motor simulation theory, which holds that we use our own motor memories to figure out what other people are doing. When we watch a video of a dancer, motor areas of the brain might activate automatically and unconsciously—even though our bodies are not actually moving—to find familiar patterns that we can use to interpret what we are watching. In other words, some sort of resonance takes place between the circuits for observing and for doing. If this is true, the AON should be more active when we observe actions that are physically familiar than it is when we observe unfamiliar actions.”

    “In an innovative paper published in 2005, Beatriz Calvo-Merino and colleagues at University College London used functional MRI (fMRI) to compare brain activity in two groups of trained dancers—one skilled in ballet and the other in capoeira, an Afro-Brazilian dance based on martial arts movements. Both groups were exceptionally skilled at dance, but each knew a set of profoundly different dance movements. The study found greater activity in the AON when dancers watched videos of familiar dances than when they watched videos of unfamiliar dances. This result is consistent with the simulation hypothesis.3”

    Henin/Carlos would have had a demand for information for a specific problem or just in general a need to improve. Very wise. In those days videoing was not that common. So when you run in to someone like JY it is very wise to let him film you. Although his experience probably was not what it is now he is good in describing caracteristics of strokes and compare them to other players. JY didn’t say he changed the stroke. And I am convinced he didn’t. But he gave Henin/Carlos so much input to start their own research to a new stroke. And like in the mentioned thread Henin had to start a process to combine the new information with the old.

    That process could have taken years and maybe went in a way that maybe had nothing to do with the first meeting with JY. But that is not the issue.
     
  43. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    1. The changes he says they made were not the changes that were made that changed her stroke.

    2. I don't think he is lying about filming her. He probably volunteered, its good press.

    You are making my point for me, as is John.

    If after high speed detailed video studies John thinks the changes were "hard turn and full arm stretch"....wow, just wow. Those 2 things are easily taught and seen by tennis coaches at all levels. It proves how worthless detailed video analysis actual is.
     
  44. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Yeah I think I'll call Carlos and tell him there is this bitter guy on a message board that can't tell the truth about anyone or anything. You may have heard of him he once worked for Rick Macci, though he won't actually give his name, but now he's attacking Rick as well. Would you mind taking time to straighten things out so he can then broaden his attack to you as well? I was happy to help when asked, btw. Just played my part in the collaboration but really Justine was the one who did the work.

    Your ignorance of professional strokes knows no bounds. Serena, Venus, Sharapova--all of them have reduced turns and less arm stretch. Yet you say every single WTA player has it. Those three have a few slams and don't. Go on, please ignore the facts again.

    The change to the stretch and more compact backswing in the women's game probably started with Henin. You must be using a telescope on that footage, by the way. You can't really see anything. But if you looked at the turn in slow motion you'd see it wasn't as strong as it became.

    The first high speed footage I gave Carlos was from 1997, BTW. Notice the stance on the serve in your footage? You don't need a telescope to see that! As I said that was the more dramatic change.

    Sorry. Good try. You don't take the time to carefully study the pro game. You misrepresented my relationships with Rick and Brian. You have no idea what I actually do, or have done, and this is just more of the same. There is a name for your approach coined in the McCarthy era--it's called the big lie technique.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2011
  45. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I sure like this statement above and I think it surely applies to the negative comments towards MTM that have been posted as well. This argument about who worked with who is eerily similar what happen with the Guga/Oscar a few weeks back. I think the listener/reader must just decide for themself if the association is legit.
     
  46. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Nabrug,

    You got it pretty much dead on right and I appreciate you speaking up.

    JY
     
  47. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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  48. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    5263:

    It's a fair question.

    I think the difference was the degree of influence claimed. The only thing I am saying is what happened. Carlos and Pat asked me for some high speed footage.
    Their theory was an athletic woman could play more like a man. I gave him my input about what the differences were and they studied the video for themselves. They worked with Justine to make the transformation. Later I was asked to film Justine and did. There were definitely changes. On her forehand and especially her serve.

    CNET interviewed them about it and they acknowledged me and my help.

    I didn't develop Justine Henin and never said I did. I don't mention this work a lot by name. It's one line with a lot of other names in my bio on Tennisplayer but that's about it.
    The name reference came from another post by SF and was accurate. I've seen how the process can help players at the tour level--not just Henin--and at other levels as well.
     
  49. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I think you were probably reasonable with you comments/claims. Just think shows how tough it can be going up against the endless questions and counter points dealing with influence/development of players in a situation like this. I'm not saying there is an answer with all this and it's why I didn't bother with the baiting I received related to this by another poster. I wasn't there and if I was, some would choose not to believe me.
    We all have to decide what we will believe.
     
  50. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    5263:

    You know I have to admit I prefer this tone of "reasonableness" to some of our other exchanges.
     

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