How to deal with side spin?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by sureshs, Nov 5, 2012.

  1. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    Yeah. Agreed.
     
    #51
  2. vil

    vil Semi-Pro

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    Yes, I agree with what's said above. It's called experimentation mate. You need to get out there and try it yourself instead of seaching for some magic formula. You will improve by spending more time on court. I don't know your ability but anyone who is persistent about certain issue or aspect of a game, will get it eventually. Some things are simply hard to explain and come to most people quite naturally.
     
    #52
  3. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    My level is not that high, and I don't see such balls often, so it is a big pain.
     
    #53
  4. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I read somewhere that ball machines cannot feed side spin. That is because they use two vertical counter-rotating wheels which squeeze and release the ball between them. So only top spin and under spin are possible.
     
    #54
  5. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    You want to raise your game a level? Focus on footwork and prep and movement. I guarantee after months of that you will be able to handle a lot more spins and be playing at a higher level.

    The best thing to do is take a lesson with a pro and ask to focus specifically on that. I did it on clay and discovered the takeback on my backhand was not fluid and timed properly. Fixed that rather fast and suddenly my backhand was not attackable all the time. then I had to focus on moving my weight into my shots, which takes time as well. Huge improvement on backhand there..boils down to footwork. I was 15-18% Body fat and dropped to ~11% - huge difference in movement. So I would also suggest running and jumping rope on days you dont play tennis.

    It sounds like you are late and need to improve your footwork. Like most players. And honestly even with that at the forefront of my mind, there are some days I just don't have it and it is still a struggle.
     
    #55
  6. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    Fundamentally once you see the ball curving you just have to anticipate it and make adjustments.

    One of the most common places to see it is from a low slice. Just like on a sliced serve, you have to position yourself to allow for the slice. From a low, bh slice for example (a rightie to a rightie), if you're going to take the shot as a fh you have to let the ball come at your body so by the time it gets to your racquet it's moved off to the side into your hitting zone.

    The side spin balls that are harder to hit are the ones that kick on the bounce differently than they were slicing in the air - kind of an American twist groundie. You see these on occasion, especially off of higher balls. You just have to keep your eye on the ball and watch it. If the ball kicks in some unanticipated way it you just have to deal with it.

    And this is one of the bigger reasons why all the spin in today's game is more than just about keeping the ball in. All that spin makes the ball kick in ways that mess with your opponent. Combined with the fact that the ball is going really fast, it can get really hard to get a clean hit sometimes. Then you have a weak ball that can be attack.
     
    #56
  7. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Slice sidespin is not a problem for me. The ball is low, so it does not mess with my eyesight. Then, the turn is very predictable. Of course, if the degree of turn is high, I will have a problem reaching to it, but it is not fundamental.

    One question: when playing a rightie opponent and being a rightie, the side spin on slice is usually one which moves away deeper into the forehand. Have you seen a slice which curves the other way, i.e., deeper into the backhand? I have seen that on backhand volleys, but I think it is not easy to do that with groundies.

    The main problem is top spin + side spin. There was one ball from Cheetah on Sunday which looked like a regular topspin, and I was expecting it to curve wide out into the forehand side after bounce. Instead it curved into me because of the sidespin.
     
    #57
  8. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Instead of worrying about their weight of shot, regardless of spin, YOU hit the ball harder and to a better spot on their court, forcing them to fetch for you.
     
    #58
  9. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    Were you prepared before the ball bounced?
     
    #59
  10. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    To hit the ball harder to contain the side spin, you have to first know that it is there, isn't it?
     
    #60
  11. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    No............ but it is not a separate issue. The preparation level is part of the play level.
     
    #61
  12. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    If you are not prepared before the ball bounces than you need to fix that. The rest falls into place.
     
    #62
  13. nyc

    nyc Hall of Fame

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    first intelligent post in this thread.
     
    #63
  14. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Suresh, I assume you were hitting with one of the girls?
    I have some experience in that.
    You have to hit your hardest (under control) and best shots, or they start to hit theirs. Once you are backpedalling, you have no chance to get offensive again.
    If you're just feeding them rally balls, you will always be scrambling to return their shots.
     
    #64
  15. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    No, this was not a girl. This was the poster Cheetah.

    The girl I hit with was a former D3 player and she has no side spin in her shots, not even much topspin. She has a deadly two-handed flat forehand.
     
    #65
  16. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Oh sorry.
    One of the things we all have to overcome is that we have to start hitting OUR way, not feed balls, to players we percieve as better than us. All of us get a little shellshocked when hitting with good players. We try to hit "perfect" feeds to start, we try to hit perfectly back to the opponent in warmups, because we feel we need to hit back to the person.
    But reality is NO. We need to hit like ourselves. We need to not worry about our perfect shots, we need to HIT our best shots.....which is why we got to play with this "superior" player to begin with.
    Something a mom of a group of players impressed on me after I had hit with each of the girls. It worked. I start to hit MY way, not go give them good practice shots, and the results were much more favorible, AND, I got to be a regular hitting partner...or opponent.
     
    #66
  17. 3fees

    3fees Hall of Fame

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    It depends on the incoming ball height,

    Good answers are $100
    Complete Answers for every senario possible are $500,,
    All payable Payable in Advance
    No such thing as free advice or a free lunch such things are "as is".

    :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2012
    #67
  18. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    I'll take this....
     
    #68
  19. ATP100

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    This is the answer.......
     
    #69
  20. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    For every scenerio possible?

    Do I owe Power Player $500?
     
    #70
  21. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I don't see this adaption as a conscious mental effort, then transferred to a physical reaction. Instead, it's a result of hitting thousands of tennis balls, you pick up the slight difference in ball spin, and you adapt without thinking about the wierdo spin.
    And of course, you hit thru more than 2 tennis balls.
     
    #71
  22. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    I’m not sure what you mean by “deep into the backhand.” For clarity I’ll describe side slice as moving into your body or away from your body.

    A rightie bh slice is will tend to move away from your body if you’re taking it as a fh (rightie). The lower your opponent hits the ball the more side slice it will tend to have. If the ball is high, say above the waist or so, it won’t have very much side slice, if any. I don’t see how a right handed player could produce a backhand slice that has a side component in the opposite direction. It’s a function of the arm pivoting at the shoulder, and with a slice the racquet will start away from the body and move in an arc down and towards the body. You’re never going to start a slice over your head and move the racquet to the outside, so I don’t see how you could get side motion on the ball that curves into a rightie fh.

    A topspin slice fh, like the one you’re describing from Cheetah, can be more varied. In this case you can generate a swing that moves away from the body or towards the body depending on the height of the ball, thereby generating a side slice that can move in either direction. If the ball is low a player can basically hit around the outside of the ball (LeeD talks about this all the time). This would create a ball like you describe that would move away from your body on the fh side. I think it’s a bit easier to do this with a more Western grip like the one Cheetah uses. On high balls you can get the opposite, a ball that moves into your body on the fh side. Good players like Cheetah are also capable of varying the amount of side spin on the ball, though the overall direct of the side spin is mostly a function of height. The high balls with side spin are generally the ones that I’ve noticed that can kick differently than how they’ve been moving in the air. It can be really difficult to read exactly how the spin is going to make the ball move and bounce, and all of this makes them harder to handle. You have to watch the swing and watch the ball all the way to your racquet, and be balanced enough in your set-up to adjust to last second surprises. The shot is supposed to cause you problems, so don’t feel bad that it does.

    Does this help?
     
    #72
  23. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Whichever slice, the ball is drifting on your thru the air, the bounce and the speed of the ball is different, so you gotta adapt and adjust to hit it.
    You can tell a 4.0 how to adapt and adjust to DavidNalbandian's ball, but he still can't do it because he's never experienced it before.
     
    #73
  24. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    If on a high ball to the bh (rightie).. instead of having the racquet face facing the net or parallel to the net you make the racquet face perpendicular to the net or facing the right post maybe and hit / carve the left outside of the ball then the slice will have sidespin to curve it towards the opponent's bh (rightie).

    btw kelley, did you get my second song I sent?
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2012
    #74
  25. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    I'm having a hard time picturing this. Have you ever done it?

    Yes I got the song. I liked it. I played them both for my son and he liked them both. Good stuff. I've been meaning to send you another as well, but I've been buried with work (I'm at work now, and I should be home).
     
    #75
  26. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    Well Suresh has experienced it now, and now he's learning to adjust. We're all just learning.
     
    #76
  27. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    ok.
    Yes I do it when I play you. Maybe I can find a vid...
     
    #77
  28. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    So how did you produce the spin that gave him trouble to his Fh?
    Hooking the outside of the ball or more the inside of it like w/ the I/O?
     
    #78
  29. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    hmm... cant seem to find a vid.
    What you do is setup for slice like fed/haas with racquet up on shoulder but instead of coming down and straight out to meet the ball w/ open face and racquet parallel to baseline as usual -you throw the racquet towards the left net post and you hit left side of the ball. Like you are doing a backhand tomahawk throw towards the left post while brusing left side of the ball.
     
    #79
  30. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    I'm not sure which one he is talking about that gave him the most trouble but i do both on him whenever i hit with him so that it forces him to move so he can get better.

    Probably he's referring to the inside the ball one that bounces and curves into his body on the fh side. I hit it c/c from my deuce side to his deuce side and it arcs to his left/my right. if it's on the high side like a bounce of over 5 feet maybe? it will bounce and kick to his left/my right. So yea like i/o shot but hit with regular open fh stance and going cc.
     
    #80
  31. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    So the ball would have to be kind of high, correct? If so I think I get what you're saying. I'm guessing the side component isn't as severe as on a low slice (which curves in the opposite direction).
     
    #81
  32. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    #82
  33. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Sort of.

    My original question was regarding the rightie BH slice. Can it be ever made to curve into the body of a rightie if he is taking it as a forehand? I think it can if the slice is applied to the left side of the ball, but it will be rare. I think I have done it. It doesn't have to be like an overhead, but the racket needs to be pointing more towards the net than towards the sidelines.

    Edit: I see that Cheetah already explained the above.

    Next, I assume "topspin slice FH" is a typo and is actually topspin-sidespin FH.

    About the topspin-sidespin, isn't it simply that if the rightie hits to the outside of the ball, it will make the ball move away from a rightie opponent's forehand (and in fact this is the case with most "topspin" balls)?

    If the rightie hits the inside of the ball (but disguises it so that it does not look like an inside-out forehand), then it will move into the rightie opponent's body if he is taking it as a forehand? The opponent will think that it will move outwards like a conventional topspin (actually topspin+sidespin), but it will actually move inwards into him.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2012
    #83
  34. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Latter I think. Interesting that I also came up with the I/O terminology in the previous post.
     
    #84
  35. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Another topic that always bugs me: relation between direction of movement in flight and movement after bounce.

    I think a slice serve moves in the same direction in both cases (flight and after bounce).

    I think a kick serve moves in the opposite direction in the air than the bounce.

    I think forehand and backhand sidespin-underspin slices move in the same direction in both cases.

    I think forehand and backhand topspin-sidespin groundies move in the same direction in both cases but can be made to move in the opposite direction with some tricks.
     
    #85
  36. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    You seem to be assuming all low Fh shot will be taken with the hooker.
    You can hit low balls with the I/O spin as well and I think many good players
    do it this way.

    I agree that suresh may be correct that most 3.5-4 level players will hook the
    cc, but think more of the higher players will mix these up quite a bit and use
    the hook version less on avg. Yes, some good players tend to love the hook and
    use it any time they can, but I think the other version is more consistent and
    powerful overall and helps you to be more ready for any good I/O opportunity
    due to hitting that version more often in the rallys.
     
    #86
  37. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    i almost never hook the ball. very rarely.
     
    #87
  38. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    I was actually referring to a bh slice in my post, not a fh.
     
    #88
  39. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I guess this is where I got lost.
    I thought this post was about topspin and the underspin comments were just
    not paying attention.
    Thread seemed to be bouncing back and forth, lol.:???:
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
    #89
  40. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Suresh.
    I"m a lefty.
    Talking about backhand slices.
    If you give me a shin high ball, I'll usually slice so the ball drifts to your left, my right, after the bounce.
    If you give me a chin high ball, my slice will drift the opposite way, to your right, and the bounce deadskids to your right. My hand is under the ball on this shot.
    If you give me a chest high to thigh high ball, I'll usually hit a slice that barely drifts in any direction, going straight with some underspin.
     
    #90
  41. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    Admitted confusing. No worries.
     
    #91
  42. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Don't most topspin balls in pro matches (hit by a rightie) curve away from the forehand of a rightie opponent after bounce? To be doubly clear, from the POV of the returner, do they not move left to right after bounce?

    Are you saying most topspin balls do NOT do this?
     
    #92
  43. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Yes seems to be what I expected.
     
    #93
  44. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    No response to #85?
     
    #94
  45. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    A side spin is rotation of the ball about vertical axis. When the ball hits the ground it continues to rotate as a simple top toy and cannot produce any tricks. Behavior of the ball after a rebound is independent of the previous direction of the ball. To create this type of spin the string bed should be vertical and racket velocity has to contain tangential horizontal and normal component only.

    When the boll rotates about horizontal axis it can produce different bounces.
    Let’s assume the ball rotation axis is horizontal and perpendicular to a target plane. In case of topspin the ball after collision with ground rolls forward and can increase its translation speed. The ball with backspin usually decreases translation speed.

    When the ball rotates about horizontal axis which is in target plane, it rolls on the ground in direction perpendicular to the target plane. If rotation is clockwise the ball jumps to the right. :):shock:
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
    #95
  46. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    What I see on most well hit, power topspin shots from right handers,
    especially on the I/O,
    is a break to the right in the air from the pov of the hitter and to the left
    of the receiver.

    like these Fhs from Fed which mostly have break to his right and down,
    but slight due to his flatter trajectory.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_yWePjInF8&feature=relmfu
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
    #96
  47. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I think it is more true for IO and DTL/UTL shots, not CC shots.

    Also brings back the question: how will they turn after the bounce?
     
    #97
  48. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Please apply that to my post
     
    #98
  49. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    1. I think a slice serve moves in the same direction in both cases (flight and after bounce).
    This is true if during contact racquet string bed is vertical.

    2. I think a kick serve moves in the opposite direction in the air than the bounce.
    This is true if during contact racquet string bed was slightly closed.

    3. I think forehand and backhand sidespin-underspin slices move in the same direction in both cases.
    This is true if during contact racquet string bed was vertical.

    4. I think forehand and backhand topspin-sidespin groundies move in the same direction in both cases.
    This is true if during contact racquet string bed was vertical.

    5. But can be made to move in the opposite direction with some tricks.
    This can be done if the racquet face is not vertical.
     
    #99
  50. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    The key to learning to hit against a top player who uses some sidespin is to hit with top players over and over again, until you learn to hit thru the ball, prep early, get shoulder's turned, even look at the ball, if needed......
    All the words in the world help little, you gotta go out there and experience it, learn to adapt to it, and hit through it.
     

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