How to get 1 ATP point from doug9238

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by jrs, Apr 16, 2013.

  1. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    Came across this another thread and thought it deserved a thread on it's own - I have nothing to do with it's all from doug9238

    Here is the original thread: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=385000

    Reading some of the posts - I realized I should post the link to the original thread - as some people are thinking this is a way for rec players to move up their level. Hope this clears up the confusion.

     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2013
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  2. goober

    goober Legend

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    Sounds great in theory. I don't agree that most people are capable of achieving it. You take your average joe off the street and actually submit him to this program, he will probably only get to the 4.5 part if lucky. Each step is glossed over as if it a matter of fact that will happen if you just do it. So far of all people posting here who claim to be pursuing ATP points from a recreational level adult start. Nobody has even come close.
     
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  3. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Actually I do think that most people under 35 or so are capable of achieving 4.5 if they devote themselves completely to that goal - i.e. are willing and able to put in the time and effort to train to the extent Doug described, plus are able to afford a lot of quality coaching.

    Those are huge ifs though. How many people would be willing to spend 30+ hours and $400+ a week on tennis and training, just to get to 4.5?

    EDIT: I don't mean to say that this is the only way to get to 4.5 of course... in reality most 4.5s get that way because they also have some innate talent and without putting in nearly that level of effort. What I mean is that if you take a random 35 or younger person off the street and subject him to that level of training, I would have a 90%+ confidence level that he would be able to reach 4.5.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2013
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  4. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    I don't think I even know anyone that would dedicate themselves to the level Doug describes. But it is the best description, I've come across that explains the Pro Tennis game.
     
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  5. mmk

    mmk Professional

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    So my first step would be figuring out how to shed at least 22 years. I'll get back to you on how that works out.
     
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  6. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    LOL.

    Of course I didn't mean to imply that it's not possible for anyone over 35 to work their way to 4.5.

    Just that with someone < 35, I think it's 90%+ possible given total dedication. Whereas > 35, maybe only 50% possible even with the same level of dedication, because of potential physical limitations.

    PS I'm not in the <35 category either :oops:
     
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  7. spinorama

    spinorama Rookie

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    Step 1.) be born with natural talent, excellent hand eye coordination, and athletic ability/potential
     
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  8. goran_ace

    goran_ace Hall of Fame

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    I saw doug9238's post in the other thread and thought it was intended to be tongue-in-cheek and not a serious post.
     
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  9. goober

    goober Legend

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    I don't think I am disagreeing with you. I think there is a 4.5-5.0 ceiling for players who start tennis as adults that only a very small percentage break through.
     
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  10. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    Really? I thought it makes sense

    I thought this makes sense. I wanted to see what others thought of it. I would think you need to put this type of work in to get to the top level in tennis.
     
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  11. Govnor

    Govnor Professional

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    That advice was for a 4.5/open player. If that level of player was willing to put in all the time, effort and $$ that the post suggests, I would think they'd be pretty disappointed if they didn't get their point.
     
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  12. Moz

    Moz Hall of Fame

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    An interesting post, it's the sort of thing that a 40 year old would come up with if he spent all day in a pub with just a pen, notepad and a lifetime of regrets as company.

    #2 would make more sense if:

    1) Long run was cut shorter.
    2) Tempo // hill sprint one week, vo2 max // hill sprint the following week rather than tempo // vo2 max each week.
    3) VO2 max work was a total of about 6 weeks (improvements plateau over less than 3 months).
    4) It included explosive footwork sessions on the court.
    5) 2 rest days would be beneficial.
     
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  13. JRstriker12

    JRstriker12 Hall of Fame

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    How does it even come close to explaining the pro tennis game?

    Has to be a joke.
    -3 months to develop a pro level cardio base?
    -3 months of work in the gym to build the muscle you need to compete?
    -1600 serves per week (4x per week 100 1st serves to both sides with 60% in and 100 2nd serves to both sides with 98%)

    LOL!

    A pro level game is built over decades of practice and work. Your average rec player would fall apart physically before they even got half way through this, especially if that person was your average 30-something 3.5/4.0 USTA player.
     
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  14. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Got you, yeah, I agree... ceiling for most adults who didn't have extensive training as juniors is 5.0ish, even with dedication.
     
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  15. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    Pro game looks so mechanical

    When I watch the pro's play - everything is so machine like - very little variations from shot to shot.
    He makes the point about what you do in practice - exactly what you do in the match.

    That's what I meant about explaining the pro game.
     
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  16. Sup2Dresq

    Sup2Dresq Hall of Fame

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    Could you spell it out a little more for us aspiring Nair mens short wearing wannabes?

    No seriously.. I need specifics. Run this.. for this long.. this many times a week.

    Thanks Moz!
     
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  17. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I agree with this, but I think setting the bar at 4.5 is too low.

    I'm a 4.0. A lot of the 4.5 women I know are older than 40, and they got to 4.5 without working at it obsessively. No training, some instruction, lots of match play. Heck, I think I could make it to 4.5 in three years if I really tried and really paid a lot for instruction.

    I would imagine someone 35 and under ought to be able to get to 5.0. Is that wrong?
     
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  18. yonexpurestorm

    yonexpurestorm Rookie

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    i think if someone were to follow these instructions they would get above 4.5 within a year or two. it also depends if your talking about doubles or singles, or high level 4.5 or average 4.5. i dont personally see 4.5 as that high of a level. however, progressing past that is tough. not only because 5.0 and 5.5 are way better divisions, but also because they dont technically exist. anything above a 4.5 is now playing open tournaments, and opens have a very large range of players. i wouldnt know where to define that range either, and i have played quite a few opens.
     
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  19. goober

    goober Legend

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    On the women's side I would say 5.0. I have played with a lot of 4.5 rated women who basically play a lot but have questionable mechanics. There are a lot of 4.5 women who still have frying pan serves, but have good groundstrokes and volleys. These are mostly 40 and 50s age range and play mostly doubles.
     
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  20. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Remember I was talking about a 90%+ rate of success.

    I do think that many people < 35 can get to 5.0 if completely dedicated. But not 90%+. Whereas I believe 90%+ can get to 4.5.
     
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  21. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Who is doug9238 and does he or she actually have 1 ATP point?
     
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  22. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    What do you have to do to get an ATP point?

    What do you have to do to get an ATP point? Win a local tournament?
     
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  23. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    #23
  24. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    #24
  25. goober

    goober Legend

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    doubt it. Even the ones in Africa and middle east have qualies just to get into the main draw.
     
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  26. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    There's a lot to be said for "muscle memory". In the heat of the moment, you can't rely on thinking much, I think. It needs to be automatic. You just need to swing and know that the swing was good, the speed was good, and contact was good. You know because you've hit hundreds of thousands of forehands in just a few months.

    When I go out and hit around with friends, or train, or whatever, I think about everything: footwork, timing, racquet take back, and swing path. I'm sure that pros can't afford to think about any of that when the typical passing shots are 65 mph+.

    The other day I was participating in a local tournament, playing in 3.5 singles (got my butt handed to me!). I was watching two 5.5's duke it out. It's like I didn't even see their racquets, it was all a blur. Their regular warm up rally shots were as fast as my hardest overhead slam. When they started to actually play, one point lasted 8 to 10 shots and was over before I'd even begin my service motion.

    Even in the upper echelon of amateur play, you can't get that way without serious muscle memory training. There's just no time to think out there. If you think, you've probably already lost 3 games.
     
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  27. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    #27
  28. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    I found this which is kind of interesting and might even be accurate: http://www.game-set-and-match.org.uk/ten points and cash.pdf

    If you make it to the round of 32 in a Futures event in singles the prize money is $117.50 and if you make it to the round of 16 and get that 1 ATP point you move up all the way to $200!

    Tough way to make a living.
     
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  29. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    You're not kidding

    I remember reading an article where the author mentioned these futures and challenger tournaments you see amazing competition because there is lot on the line for these players. So players are giving everything they have trying to get to the ATP or WTA.
     
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  30. yonexpurestorm

    yonexpurestorm Rookie

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    thats a great point. some things need to be second nature in order to have a chance. but it goes even further than muscle memory. shot selection and strategy need to done without thinking. the best players already know where they are going to hit the ball without having to think about it, because they have hit that shot thousand of times and know where it needs to be already.
     
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  31. ttwarrior1

    ttwarrior1 Professional

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    the ole joe weider, 6 days a week, 1 day off for the sabbath theory. bogus, completely bogus
     
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  32. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    Wasn't he very successful with body builders?

    Wasn't he very successful with the body builders?
     
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  33. Moz

    Moz Hall of Fame

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    Amateurs would get more bang for their buck if their running training didn't interfere with their tennis training so intensive drilling would seem to make more sense over lactate threshold or vo2 max training.

    The component that should be ever present is speed.

    You don't develop or maintain speed by doing 30 second intervals, 400m intervals or anything like that. Speed is developed through very short quality with full recovery, it's all about quality. So, the 800m reps described as speedwork are useless for developing speed - they increase vo2 max.

    The reason for the hill reps is they help develop speed, strength, power and the slope helps to coerce good technique. A hill session would be something like 8 - 10 reps at full effort on a very steep hill for a max of 8 seconds with a 2:30 - 3:00 jog recovery. It's not a puking session, it's a quality session.

    If you want to develop speed it's also best to give your connective tissue some gentle preparation in the form of light jogging. So, those who claim jogging is useless frequently miss the point of its role. You wouldn't want to do 40 miles per week as it will interfere with your tennis and you also would want to maintain a speed element at least once weekly.

    I only browsed the link that recommends 45 minutes of intervals and couldn't continue to listen to that bloke's strange voice. But it appears to make the classic mistake of trying to simulate the event through the training. I argue about this with the runners I coach all the time. This seems like a good idea but the goal should really be to efficiently develop the physiological systems and this never takes as much volume as most people think.

    Personally I'd look to run something like 4 or 5 times a week but only about 4 miles or so at an easy effort. Add in some hill reps, slightly downhill sprints and footwork drills and you'll be 90% there. The rest can be rounded out with the stroke drilling and match play.

    For a pro player, whose job it is, who also has the opportunity to periodise it would be different. But you wouldn't periodise in the way suggested in the OP. Far from it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2013
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  34. JRstriker12

    JRstriker12 Hall of Fame

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    Might work if you are a body builder and juiced up on steroids.

    Probably not the best plan for tennis training.
     
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  35. rufus_smith

    rufus_smith Professional

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    Just reading the OP list made me tired. The ATP can keep their one point or give it to yonexpurestorm or to ttwarrior while I lay comfortably on the sofa dreaming of hitting just one 120 mph serve in my life. :)
     
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  36. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    LOL...right with you

    Same here .....but atleast now when I am resting on my sofa - I know there is a list of things I can do if I wanted an ATP point....yeah, but don't really need that point right now....where's that remote? oh no ...all the way over there!!!!
     
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  37. IA-SteveB

    IA-SteveB Professional

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    That's how I interpreted it as well.
     
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  38. thejackal

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    #38
  39. roman40

    roman40 Rookie

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    I think age is a non-issue, it's just a matter of time, commitment and resources. Most people simply don't have the amount of time and resources they need to invest to get to 4.5 level. In terms of fitness, I see plenty of 40+ and 50+ guys who are fit enough to play at 4.5 level, I mean, just look at how many people at this age do marathons and triathlons.

    Also, I don't agree with "many ... to 5.0" metric. I see many dedicated players who spend as much time as anyone can, assuming a day job and family/girlfriend/boyfriend (which includes most older than 22), playing 4-5 times per week, but most have no chance at getting to 5.0 level, and many are struggling to break the 4.0 ceiling.
     
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  40. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    If you think age is a non-issue, then I am guessing you are young. As you get older you will realize that your body just can't handle the same amount of physical activity that it could when younger, and that it does not recover as quickly. This puts a lower ceiling on how much and how hard you can train.

    As for dedicated young players who are struggling to improve... perhaps they are spending their time and effort the wrong way. Just playing sets 4-5 time a week is not enough. Do they have a rigorous off-court training regimen? Are they taking lessons with a good coach? Do they drill enough?

    I am not saying that 90% of younger player will get to 4.5 or 5.0. I am saying that 90% of them *could* get there with the proper training, coaching, and dedication.

    You're of course free to disagree.
     
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  41. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    I actually agree with you.

    I train at one of the top facilities for juniors on this side of the country, and 95% of the ones in the top programs are at least 5.0 players, and they play 5.0 tournaments as early as age 12. A lot of them are able to make quality runs in the draws. (Last week a junior age 15 made the finals of a 5.0 provincial here, and lost to a Div 1 player.) There is tons of depth in juniors, especially when it comes to ratings.

    -Fuji
     
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  42. EP1998

    EP1998 Semi-Pro

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    There is no mention in Doug's list of a large bank account. That is the most important thing.
     
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  43. usta2050

    usta2050 Rookie

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    thanks, we should salute all the tennis players who really went/go after their dream. it takes disciplines and focus. not easy at all.
     
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  44. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    Me 3. He makes the transitions up the ladder sound like absolutes. All the training and practice would mean nothing to some people - they just can't compete - or to put it another way - bring their practice game to the court. Serious one-on-one (at higher levels) competition isn't for everyone.

    I agree. A lot of people just aren't that coordinated. They could win a lottery and blow a million on the best trainers and tennis instructors - wouldn't help.
     
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  45. jdubbs

    jdubbs Hall of Fame

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    That explains some of it definitely. But for those that ARE coordinated, it really pains me to see all the hacker tennis that goes on. You would think that with all the access to coaching and online lessons that players would be getting better, but no...i hate to see the same hackers year after year, content at 4.0 and never getting better.
     
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  46. OneLove

    OneLove New User

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    Challenge accepted.
     
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  47. JRstriker12

    JRstriker12 Hall of Fame

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    How many of those guys are paying to have a coach? If you're the average USTA player, money for a coach is low on the list since you mainly play tennis for fun.

    Online coaching is good too, but it requires actually practicing what you learned and it can be hard to break a bad habit or learn something new without an objective observer and consistent practice.
     
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  48. goober

    goober Legend

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    This may surprise you but the majority of adult recreational players are playing for fun and most play 1-2 week. People who are in their 40-60s that are 4.0 are usually aware of what it takes to get to 4.5, but don't have the time to put in for practice/fitness/lessons. If people are content at their level why should it bother you? That would be like going to a bowling alley and complaining about all the crap bowlers there are and why can't they practice and get better ? Or complaining about some 50 year old dude not being able to break a 5 minute mile even though he has been jogging regularly for 10 years.
     
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  49. jrs

    jrs Professional

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    What bothers me is....

    What does bother me are these same hackers thinking they should be able to hit shots like the pros or complain they missed a shot - only Pro could make!

    If I hit a spectacular shot - it's luck. If I shank a shot - that's the norm!
     
    #49
  50. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    #50

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