"How to predict match results and cancel your own rules" by mr Disney

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by malakas, Mar 1, 2007.

  1. malakas

    malakas Banned

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    SPOILER






























    after JMDP retired against Blake,Korolev was to qualify to next round according to RR rules.
    so you got:
    korolev : 2
    blake : 2
    del potro : 1
    and with H2H Korolev advances since he beat Blake.

    BUT mr Disney strikes again!
    http://www.atptennis.com/1/en/news/news6.asp

    The explanation from the tournament according to TTC announcers is that the decision was made "based on what the score would have been had the match been completed".
    So,now ATP can predict the future?:confused: [​IMG]With the same logic applied,had JMDP not be injured he could win more than 6 games therefore Blake would be eliminated.


    Changing their own stupid rules midtournament to suit the top player![​IMG] [​IMG]Can it get more ridiculous than that?
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2007
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  2. jaykay

    jaykay Professional

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    Absolutely APPALLING, really!!! Ridiculous...

    I do like Blake, but this sounds like borderline cheating!
     
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  3. Alexandros

    Alexandros Professional

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    Uh, that would be profoundly unfair to Korolev - he should kick up a stink about this.
     
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  4. Starlite

    Starlite Semi-Pro

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    Wow, this is incredible!

    I agree. In fact, he probably would get a lot of player support for this too. I feel so sorry for him, but I have the feeling Etienne de Villiers would just try and fine him for unsportsmanship or something crazy like that. This could be detrimental to the sport, but I have a feeling RR for regular tourneys won't be around next year.
     
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  5. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    Thanks for posting this. The most disgusting tennis news I have read ever. If this is true, count on me to whistle every time I am in the stands watching Blake's second serve.
     
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  6. Max G.

    Max G. Hall of Fame

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    I would presume that a "what the score would have been had the match been completed" assigns every game to the player that did not retire.

    I.e. if I retire when the score is 4-4 in the first set, it counts as if my opponent won 6-4 6-0.

    That seems fair to me - or at least the most fair way of assigning a "score" to an uncompleted match. Though i have to say, I don't like any system where details of how the match was won matter...

    I don't see how that should matter though, if they don't count games or sets won. I thought they did count games and sets won though, but I don't remember how exactly they figured in.
     
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  7. Max G.

    Max G. Hall of Fame

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    Okay, so I just looked up the facts. Korolev had NOT won both of his matches - Juan Martin Del Potro had BEATEN him.

    That left Blake, JMDP, and Korolev each at a record of 1-1, with Blake beating JMDP, Korolev beating Blake, and JMDP beating Korolev. It was a three-way tie.
     
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  8. malakas

    malakas Banned

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    yes,the point is that they shouldn't assign any score to an uncompleted match in the first place.Or at least according to the rules from the start of the tournament.

    But,they changed it to suit their case,and let Blake through.Last week the same exact situation with Ferrero,but guess what?They didn't changed the rules and he got eliminated.
     
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  9. Max G.

    Max G. Hall of Fame

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    Well, right now I'm trying to find the rules on their site, and I don't know where... did you find them somewhere?
     
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  10. malakas

    malakas Banned

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    no.See my first post.JMDP retired so it didn't count as a match for him.Only for Blake.And then it was a 2 way tie between Korolev and Blake with Korolev advancing because he had won Blake.
    Note that had Juan Marin won more than six games he would be through immediately.
     
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  11. malakas

    malakas Banned

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  12. Max G.

    Max G. Hall of Fame

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    No, it was a slightly different situation...

    Last week,

    Ferrero lost to Devilder
    Ferrero beat Dlouhy

    Devilder beat Ferrero
    Devilder lost to Lapentti

    Lappenti and Dlouhy each played one match, and were not in the running. It was a different situation because neither of them stepped on court for a second match.

    If one of them had stepped on court for their second match, and then retired, then it would have been decided by number of sets/games won.

    In this week's, the second rule ("most number of completed matches") could not decide the tie, since more than one tied player had the same number of played matches, so they went to rule 3. Or at least that's how I read this, from what I know...

    If you post a link to the actual rules, I would be grateful, because I still haven't been able to find them...

    [edit] nevermind, posted after you gave me that link. 1 sec, I'll read it [/edit]
     
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  13. Max G.

    Max G. Hall of Fame

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    Interesting. Well, the TTC announcers were definitely wrong - it explicitly says that

    "games won or lost in matches with the defaulting or retiring player shall not be counted in calculating percentage of games won." So "games blake would have won in that match" don't matter and weren't counted.

    Hmm... lemme go through these again....

    Yeah, no idea what's going on with this, if you don't count the games in that match then Blake shouldn't have come out on top even if you don't look at the head to head.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2007
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  14. Hot Sauce

    Hot Sauce Hall of Fame

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    Can someone explain to me what's going on?
     
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  15. malakas

    malakas Banned

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    no you got it wrong.Ok,let me explain.
    Korolev completed both matches so:2.

    Blake completed the match against Korolev 1.But also JMDP retired against their match,so according to the rules,it's a completed match only for him.(Blake).so:2

    JMDP,completed the match against Korolev (1) but retired against Blake.So:1

    Now you got Korolev and Blake with same number of completed matches.
    But according to h2h Korolev advances.
     
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  16. lorenza

    lorenza Semi-Pro

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    wow, that is crap that they would do this

    why would you do that though? james didn't ask for this to happen, the officials just did it. and i'm pretty sure that if this happened to any player, they would not say anything about how it was wrong.....:p
     
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  17. malakas

    malakas Banned

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    Blake could still not accept this breaking of rules,and refuse to continue.Since he's the vice president of the atp that would be the fair thing to do.But he decided to take Korolev's rightfull place and advance in the tournament.

    Yeah sure,that is the "smart" thing to do and he will win much money,and a chance to defend his title,but that doesn't make it right not to mention that it will severely hurt his spotless image amongst the players.
     
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  18. lorenza

    lorenza Semi-Pro

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    hmm, very good point sani. i do think he should too, but it's obvious he's not going to. not a lot of people would. it kinda makes me disappointed in him :(
     
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  19. Max G.

    Max G. Hall of Fame

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    Well, rereading it again, I might be able to. Sorta. It's confusing. So here are the actual rules, along with my commentary of what I think they mean, based on the way they've been applied:

    The final standing of each group shall be determined by the first of the following methods that apply:
    i) Greatest number of wins;
    Doesn't apply - gives a three-way tie

    ii) Greatest number of matches completed (a retirement does not count as a completed match for the retiring player; it does however, count as a completed match for the opponent of the retiring player).

    Doesn't apply - still a two-way tie with this

    iii) Head-to-head results if only two (2) players are tied,

    Doesn't help - three players are tied. This makes sense only if the previous rule is only applied if it can resolve the conflict, or else it would only be a two-way tie by now

    or if three (3) players are tied, then:
    aa) If three (3) players each have one (1) win, a player having played less than two (2) matches is automatically eliminated and the player advancing to the knockout competition is the winner of the match-up of the two (2) players tied with 1-1 records;

    In this section, they use "played" instead of "completed" - JMDP is considered to have "played" his match, even if he didn't "complete" it. So thus, this rule does not help.

    or
    bb) Highest percentage of sets won; or

    Blake won two of the four sets he played; JMDP won two out of four; Korolev won two out of four. Doesn't help.

    cc) Highest percentage of games won.

    If you count games won during that last Blake-JMDP match, then Blake would have the highest percentage. I don't know whether they treat a retirement as "retiring player loses rest of the games played" or whether they just treat games that have already been played, but either way Blake gets the advantage here.

    dd) If any of the above produces one (1) superior player, then this is the winner of the group; or, if it produces one (1) inferior player, and the two remaining players are tied, the tie between those two (2) players shall be broken by head-to-head record.

    The way I read this, is that cc decided it. That seems to conflict with something two lines down though.

    iv) If ties still exist after the above procedures, then the player with the highest ranking shall be deemed the winner of the group.

    Not relevant, games were not tied no matter how you swing it

    v) In applying the tie-breaking procedures, a conduct default or retirement shall count as a straight set win or loss. However, games won or lost in matches with the defaulting or retiring player shall not be counted in calculating percentage of games won. A player who retires during the Round Robin because of illness or injury may continue in the competition if cleared to play by the Tournament
    Doctor.


    Oh, rereading this a second time, maybe they mean a "conduct default" or "conduct retirement" - i.e. something for nonmedical reasons. I guess if the illness/injury is cleared by the doctor then everything stands and games are counted?

    That's the best I can make of the situation. It's pretty tenuous - I'm very tempted to send off an email to the ATP asking for clarification on how it worked.

    I think I'll do that. But only after I finish my homework, I've spent too long on this as is... Blargh, back to particles tunneling through potential barriers and all that jazz.
     
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  20. malakas

    malakas Banned

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    Max G. you don't understand rule no2.It doesn't says about matches WON but matches COMPLETED!;) So 2 completed for Korolev,2 for Blake but only 1 for Del Potro.
     
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  21. Max G.

    Max G. Hall of Fame

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    That assumes Blake knows the rules have been broken. I'm not so sure he would - my first reaction would be to treat that JMDP match as a 6-1 3-1 win, and then he gets through fine. I'm not sure he even realizes that there are intricacies in the rules about "retirements" being treated differently from just match wins.
     
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  22. malakas

    malakas Banned

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    yes but Blake is the vice president of the players council.The same council that agreed and signed for testing the same rules of the RR format.If someone should understand and know the rules that would be first of all the members of the council that agreed on them!
     
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  23. Max G.

    Max G. Hall of Fame

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    Yes, it says matches completed. This still leaves a two-way tie; hence, the rule does not resolve the conflict and therefore is not applied.

    Looking at the way they phrased it, they say that
    "the tie will be resolved by the first of the following methods that applies". This could be read as "if the method cannot resolve a tie, then it does not apply." (Since only ONE of the methods is to be applied, it must be one that resolves the tie!)

    They definitely need to word the rules a lot better though, that is not at all clear and I'm not sure that that is what their reasoning actually is.
     
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  24. Max G.

    Max G. Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, I agree that he really SHOULD know them. That doesn't mean he does... it's not like they're particularly easy to understand, and it's been a while since they were approved. Easy to gloss over all of those little tidbits about how retirements are treated differently from just match wins.
     
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  25. malakas

    malakas Banned

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    yes by the second rule(completed matches) we are left with a 2 part tie.
    And the tie is resolved with the first next rule that resolves it.The h2h rule.
     
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  26. Max G.

    Max G. Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, as soon as I finish my QM homework, I'm definitely sending off an email to someone in the ATP to get a clarification/explanation of the rules... hopefully they'll respond.

    To do that, I need to finish the homework first, so I'm leaving this discussion for now. Ttyls all.

    [edit] Okay, so as I posted this, I saw your last comment -

    "yes by the second rule(completed matches) we are left with a 2 part tie."

    I just can't leave without responding...

    See, the way I read their rules, is that only ONE of those methods is to be applied - the one that resolves the situation. That rule does not resolve the situation - it brings it down from a three-way tie to a two-way tie, and that's still a tie. Therefore, that rule is not applied at all - only ONE of the rules can be applied, and it's not that one! What that rule says doesn't matter, because it's not the one that is applied to resolve the situation. Going on to the next rules, it's still a 3-way tie, and JMDP is not "eliminated" because he would have lost the tie had that rule been the one applied.

    As I said, sometime later tonight I'll fire off an email and hopefully get a clarification... and for now I *really* need to sign off from here and get some work done...[/edit]
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2007
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  27. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    Exactly. That is why, unless James Blake between now and whatever time tomorrow, shows some semblance of dignity by rejecting the rotten scheme concocted by the tournament officials, he is in the Hall Of Shame ************-whistling club forever in my book.
     
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  28. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    oh, "second serve" is a prohibited term on these forums???
     
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  29. malakas

    malakas Banned

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    lol Max G. that's how it works.I will get you examples for how that has already been applied previously in RR tournies, for you to see after you finish hw.:)
     
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  30. lorenza

    lorenza Semi-Pro

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    yeah...now i am somewhat torn :( i love james but ugh, why did he have to do this? :(
     
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  31. lorenza

    lorenza Semi-Pro

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    lol :rolleyes:
     
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  32. malakas

    malakas Banned

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    I can find any examples :( since also the RR tournaments are only a few so far.But this is how it works.With the retirement you get 2way tie which is resolved by the first next rule.But if you want to look forward into it and email ATP,you are welcome to do so,and please shall they answer you,post here and enlighten us with ATP's saying of this.;)

    I already emailed them to tell them what I thought of this disgrace.:rolleyes:
     
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  33. aznkb888

    aznkb888 New User

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  34. malakas

    malakas Banned

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    From the above article.
    LOL!He WOULD have won had Juan not retired.:rolleyes: Suuure.And had my grandmother had balls would be my grandfather.
    At least they agree that the rule is silly and should get rid of.But what they do to fix it?Instead of going BY the rules,they change them in the middle of a freaking tournament for crying out loud so as the top player to go through.:rolleyes:

    Double standards much?When Lappenti retired oh you put in a lucky loser and thus eliminating any chance for Ferrero to advance.But when it happens to local boy,Etienne's puppy oh no.Change the rules!:roll:

    This is ridiculous.And how many points will you grand him mr Mickey?Half of quarterfinals and semifinals too?:roll:
     
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  35. angharad

    angharad Semi-Pro

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    From the article that aznkb888 linked to:

    This is the part that I just don't get. Why on earth did it go to games won? If Korolev and Blake have two matches apiece, with del Potro below them at one match won, then it should have been resolved with the head-to-head between Korolev and Blake, which Korolev won.

    So now according to another article , Blake is awarded the win because the rules weren't "sufficiently explained", even though he's the what, VP of the player's council and agreed to the rules when they were put in place? I also didn't realize that ignorance of the rules means that the ruling goes in your favor. I know that where I live, ignorance of the law doesn't exempt you from it. It sounds like a case of the almighty dollar.
     
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  36. mikhail

    mikhail New User

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    ok guys its obvious Korolev should have gone through by the "Rules" i am a big supporter of him and am outraged.
    Blake is Vice President of players council...what does that mean.. does he also defend the players???? like there rights???? because if thats one thing he is meant to do he is really doing a crap job of it. This is completly ridiculous you dont just change rules to suit your prefrence. I think these are the signs of the beginning of corruption in Tennis.

    The ******* organisers want money so they decide to not let Evgeni through because he cant do anything if he complains which i know he wont since us russians hardly complain it always gets us into more trouble HAHA

    What is he up against????
    ATP-TOURNAMENT ORGANISERS-SPONSORS-MONEY

    and what has he got?
    99 world ranking
    $231,098 in career prize money.
    He is also 19..

    Its simple the more money you have you can do what ever you want to the sport because you have the power.

    What can we do????
    -Argue pointlessley who is rite and wrong.. we wont achieve anything. Money runs the world and the people without it just get screwed over continuisly by the selfish people who act like they are GOD!

    round robin is stupid just do knockouts dis aint a team sport you can now see how weak the rules of the round robin format are
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2007
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  37. vive le beau jeu !

    vive le beau jeu ! G.O.A.T.

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    i just turn on my computer today... after these big joke of yesterday, and what do i read ?
    dios mio... they changed the rules ???

    ok their rules suck more than anything... but changing them in the middle of the tournament... this is amazing ! :shock:
    i think the logical thing would be to definitely give up this RR crap.
    i see Mr. Mickey isn't afraid of doing anything he can for business concern......

    from : http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/news?slug=lasvegastennis&prov=st&type=lgns
    the "technicality"... what a joke !!! [​IMG]
    ummm... that could be called corruption !
    now i will call him Mr. Mafia-Mickey !!! :cool:

    come on... please fire this guy. :D
    send him back with goofy, his place is there !!!
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2007
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  38. The Grand Slam

    The Grand Slam Hall of Fame

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    He lives up to his nickname 'Mickey Mouse'... he's a little disease-ridden rodent.
     
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  39. vive le beau jeu !

    vive le beau jeu ! G.O.A.T.

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    from : http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/news?slug=reu-menvegas&prov=reuters&type=lgns

    ok, this would be a (light) argument in favor of the "late change of rules".
    but still, all this is a miserable fiasco...

    blake finds it ok :
    from : http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/news?slug=reu-menvegas&prov=reuters&type=lgns

    on the other hand :
    from : http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/news?slug=reu-menvegasreaction&prov=reuters&type=lgns

    ===
    so... do you buy the "juan martin didn't know" or the "the rules are in place / everyone was aware of the rule" ?... ;)
     
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  40. malakas

    malakas Banned

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    Nice to see other players stand up and say it how it is!
    so much for the rules not fully explained!:roll:
     
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  41. malakas

    malakas Banned

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    lol we posted the same article the same second :mrgreen:
     
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  42. vive le beau jeu !

    vive le beau jeu ! G.O.A.T.

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    sani, we should work in team... we did the same job at the same time ! ;)

    LOL at your new avatar !!! :D :D :D
     
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  43. vive le beau jeu !

    vive le beau jeu ! G.O.A.T.

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    and synchro once again !!! :rolleyes:
     
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  44. mikhail

    mikhail New User

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    so true!!! thank you vive le beau jeu ! and malakas everyone was aware and i am Happy safin as always defends the other russian players and well done hewitt i hope to see some more players doing this but not getting fined since the ATP fines you for speaking your mind HAHAHAHA
     
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  45. malakas

    malakas Banned

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    lol yeah erwan,we should create the mafia-mouse fan club!!:D ;)

    After this ridiculous inciddent I felt compelled to sacrifice my beautiful old avatar *sigh* :p after all Rafa doesn't get much chances to pick his butt with all the early losses recently!:mrgreen:
     
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  46. Ash Doyle

    Ash Doyle Professional

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    This is one of the most inexcuseable things I've ever seen on the pro tennis tour. He made this decision to make the tournament happy to not lose their number one seed and draw. When decisions are made like this it TOTALLY kills the integrity of the sport. The ATP needs to correct this decision quickly.
     
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  47. malakas

    malakas Banned

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    #47
  48. diegaa

    diegaa Hall of Fame

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    i didnt know this. what a bunch of crap....
    this is history repeating.
     
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  49. Green

    Green Guest

    In defense of the ATP

    I understand this is an unpopular decision but consider one point....

    When deciding to implement the RR format, one of the concerns the ATP had was that players could be put in a position to help or hurt other players by losing (intentionally) or not completing matches. In this case, Blake would have advanced by losing 5 or fewer games. He was on his way to doing that when Del Potro decided to retire. I'm not accusing Del Potro of retiring for illegitimate reasons (although he is quoted as saying he would have continued had he known the ramifications of his decision), but suppose for a second Del Potro is good friends with Korolev and he finds he is down 1-6 1-3 and maybe he isn't feeling great and doesn't think he'll be able to win another 4 games....he is now in a position to "choose" who will advance between Blake and Korolev....so maybe he thinks "Korolev is my buddy" or "I don't like Blake", I'll retire now to help my buddy. This is an unacceptable situation as far as I'm concerned.

    Now, in no way am I accusing of Del Potro of actually thinking this. I'm simply suggesting what could go through the head of a dishonest player who found himself in that situation. Overall, this is a bad situation for the ATP and I imagine it will spell the end of the RR format after this year.

    Please tell me if I've made a mistake in the above scenario.....
     
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  50. malakas

    malakas Banned

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    yes it's a stupid rule.But it's better to be stupid and APPLY this in some tournaments for everyone to realise its stupidity,than to ILLEGALY change the rules in the middle of the tournaments to meet your ends.
     
    #50

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