how to string two piece and tie off on the 2nd cross

Discussion in 'Stringing Techniques / Stringing Machines' started by Roger Wawrinka, Aug 22, 2012.

  1. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    Hey guys, I been stringing for 3 years and it takes me about 27 minutes per racquet but I hear that when you start your crosses and tie your starting knot you can pinch nautral gut which I string with very often. Professional stringers tie off on crosses (mostly the 2nd cross) and I wanted to know how to tie off the starting knot on the 2nd cross?
     
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  2. bugeyed

    bugeyed Semi-Pro

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    Use a starting clamp to hold the first string until you string enough crosses & the clamp is at the other side. Then pull the first cross, remove the start clamp, clamp the string & tie off.

    k
     
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  3. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    First Off thank you for replying but I'm a little confused. how much string to you pull through. Could you explain the whole thing further?
     
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  4. bugeyed

    bugeyed Semi-Pro

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    Just leave enough string at the start so that you can pull tension on it. Depends on your machine. I use a Babolat machine & don't wrap the string around the diablo when doing this. Use a starting clamp at the outside of the frame & start the crosses normally. You can tie off any time you choose during the crosses, as long as the clamp on the tie off side is free. I think there is a youtube video on using a starting clamp.
    k
     
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  5. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    Okay Thank you so Much!! I owe you two!:)
     
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  6. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    Hey Bugeyed, Very sorry but I tried this out and this is what happened. When I explain left and right, I am looking at the racquet upside down.

    1. Started crosses right to left and weave one cross.

    2. place the starting clamp on the outside of the frame on the right side of the frame.

    3. pull tension.

    Now I can not leave the starting clamp on because then it gets in the way of weaving the 2nd cross and if I remove it I lose the tension. What do I do!

    Thanks for everything, Roger Wawrinka
     
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  7. bugeyed

    bugeyed Semi-Pro

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    Weave first cross, pull enough string through to tension, put start clamp on this tail, weave second cross with the long end of string, pull tension on the second cross & first at the same time. When you get a few more crosses done, pull tension on the tail with the start clamp, remove start clamp & clamp string & then tie off on second or third cross.
    k
     
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  8. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    So you want to tie off a cross on a cross. That may be an excellent idea. Most people use the second cross to tie off. Hummm? I don't or I guess I would say it depends. How many skips do you have at the top of the frame? Is the hole you are going to use for tie off a small hole with a tight fitting smal grommet? Bad idea for tie off if it is. if you do decide to tie off on a cross and it is not the second cross is there anything else you should consider? Glad you asked. If you are tying off farther down the racket the length of string on the outside creates a farther distance between the clamp and the string which means more drawback. I could go on but lets think about this.

    Rather than just rambling let's get more specific. What racket are you thinking about doing this with? A close up picture of the head of the frame you are considering using would help too. Believe it or not all frames are not the same.

    EDIT: If you are stringing gut in the mains and the crosses do you think the string knows the difference? First you have to ask yourself why the manufacturer recommends a point for tying off and why do we know better.

    EDIT: BTW if you look at rackets designed for tying off the crosses on a cross like some Babolats they usually tie off on the third cross 11H.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2012
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  9. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Weave the first three cross place the starting clamp on the string you are tying off and pull tension. But watch out you may have the starting clamp in the way if your are putting the starting clamp on the a string other than the top cross.
     
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  10. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    I have always been told it's better to tie off on a cross. While it's not possible with my Prince's, I always used to tie off my C10s on the second cross.

    With a one-piece, I'd pull enough string on the short side to weave the first two crosses. I'd start the long side on the 3rd cross. Once tension was pulled on it, I'd tie off on it.

    At the bottom, I'd once again tie off on a cross.

    I was told, and believe, that doing this makes for a more even tension. The crosses already are locked in by friction as well so you don't lose as much tension when you tie off on them. And, IMO, doing both knots on crosses makes for a better looking, cleaner installation.
     
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  11. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    I would agree with most of what you said. Don't know that way is better. I don't like the short section of frame that supports your transition from the long side to the third cross.
     
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  12. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    Thanks everyone If I still can't get it right i'll check back on this thread. Irvin, I watched a lot of your videos and they are great but I am surprised that you do not have a video on this hahaha! although, it may be a good Idea. Also, I mostly do this with the Wilson Prostaff 90 blx and The Tecnifibre 325 vo2 max. I used an awl to open up the 2nd hole on the cross. Bugeyed, Thanks for being so patient and helping me:)
     
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  13. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    Okay Guys..........Still can't get it. This is what I do.

    1. weave first cross through and leave one side with just enough to tie off.

    2. Pull tension with the long side of string and clamp it.

    3. weave 2 more crosses through.

    4. Then When I pull tension with the starting clamp when I remove it I can not clamp it with anything so I lose tension.


    I am sorry guys I must be stupid but I need your help.

    Thanks, Roger Wawrinka
     
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  14. Dags

    Dags Professional

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  15. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    Hey Actually I just figured it out before I saw this video but Thanks for posting this because now I know I'm doing it right Thanks! Also, Thank you to Irvin, Bugeyed, and Dags you guys are the best Thanks Again!:):)
     
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  16. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    I don't have a video because I think it is a bad idea to use an awl to open a hole up. I just made a video where I was going to tie off on the third cross but realized too late that I did not want to use it because I didn't want to tie the top cross off that far down. I should have ran in the top cross with enough string to string the second cross and reach the tensioner then ran in the third cross and pull tension. Wen I tied off the bottom come back up to the top cross remove starting clamp then run in second cross and tie it off at 11h. Here is the video|

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXgtxmdDBUo&list=UURjgj1_5OIecsHhyC968nTQ&index=1&feature=plcp
     
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  17. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    Why do you think it's bad? Isn't that what professional stringers do?
     
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  18. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    When you have a very small grommet hole the string barely fits through and a small hole in the frame the grommet barely fit through and you try to make two string fit through the grommet by forcing an awl in the grommet you are asking for trouble. As in the video I linked to above some frames have larger grommet holes that will accept two strings without forcing an awl in the grommet. If that's your case then do it if you want to. I believe you mentioned you had a Wilson. I believe those have larger grommet hole so there is no problem. If you find you have to force the grommet to open up I would say don't do it.

    As to what the professionals do if they have the same string in the mains and crosses they string one piece. If you are stringing the same string in the mains and crosses what difference does it make if you tie a cross to a main? You can't go wrong following the manufacturer's recommendation.
     
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  19. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    But What do professionals do when they are stringing nautral gut in the mains and a poly in the cross. :confused::confused:


    Look at this video..... watch from 2:47 from 2:57 they show roger's racquet being strung and you can see the knot. Don't get me wrong Irvin I am not disagreeing with you I just want to know why you don't like doing that. I have also see P1 tie off there with Tsonga's Babolat racquet.
     
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  20. jim e

    jim e Hall of Fame

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    I agree with Irvin. Enlargen a grommet would make grommet wall thinner, as a result grommet will not last as long, and in a short order racquet manuf. stop making grommet sets so you need to get newer racquets.
    Pros do not have to worry how long their racquets last, yet alone the grommets, so no big deal to modify for them, but for hitters like me its nice to keep the racquets and grommets lasting a decent time.
    Just yesterday I found out the grommet sets for my 8 head radicals I have are no longer available, discontinued by manufacturer.Manufacturers make the grommets for a very short time after a racquet is made, then after a while the grommets start to fail and at that time they are no longer available.
    Stretch them out with an awl, and who knows how much shorter that that made its time span.
    BTW, I have hit with gut mains and poly crosses, and tied the poly to the gut mains with no issues. I'm not saying one way is better than the other, just what works for me.I would guess that in theory to tie of gut to gut and poly to poly would be better for string life, but for the pros they switch racquets so often I would bet that it would make no difference in long run for them one way or the other, its just the stringers way of customizing the best they think but does it really matter in the grand scheme of things?
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2012
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  21. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    I agree with you, but I guess we all have our own different ways to string tennis racquets.

    Thanks for replying and for the help, Roger Wawrinka
     
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  22. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Quick Tip on how to open up/widen a tie-off hole:

    Get a spare piece of string (preferrably a 16 gauge poly) and stick it in the hole to be widened. Lube your awl, and slowly stick the awl thru the hole. Once you have widened the hole a bit, stick a second piece a sting in there (Note: you will now have two strings in the hole), and repeat the procedure with the awl.

    Make sure you do this slowly, lube your awl, and be careful to ensure you do not crack the frame material.

    Here is a photo I took of Grigor Dimitrov's frame while stringing it, where one could see the widened hole.

    [​IMG]


    One other note, I agree with the others in that this is not necessarily good or bad, or in fact really necessary. Also, pros are continuosly restringing their frames, and they get grommet sets and racquets for free from their sponsors, so you should really consider why you are doing this.

    Good luck.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2012
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  23. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    Wow Thanks Drakulie, I can not believe you strung at the cincy tournament. also, are you allowed to tell me what string Grigor uses. I am just a really big fan of his.
     
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  24. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    ^^Wilson Gut 17 (mains), Luxilon 4G (crosses).
     
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  25. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Ugh the goat setup..drak I'm going through g/p too fast. I can't afford to buy gut even though I love it. Would full poly at 40#s or so give me that same nice high launch angle and catch and shoot playability I get from a gut poly setup at 58/53?

    I have tried syn gut mains instead of natty gut and I break them too fast.
     
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  26. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    Thanks Drakulie, I owe you one.:)
     
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  27. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    stay with the gut/poly set up and drop to 45. Will last you longer, and you'll love it. Great lift and monster spin when you get dialed in.

    I'm now stringing in the mid 40's (45-48 lbs) and it last much longer than in the mid 50's.

    No porblem. Glad you enjoyed the post.
     
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  28. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Ok I will try it. I have such an open pattern stick that it may be the issue, but I have hit with the setup you describe and it is awesome..thanks.
     
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  29. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Roger plays with a Wilson and many Wilson rackets have grommets you do not have to open up. Personally I don't care what "the professionals" do. If I were stringing gut mains and poly crosses I would prefer to tie poly on poly. I string one racket where the customer wants gut mains and poly crosses. It's a Babolat and I tie off the top crosses on the third cross as recommended at 11h I believe.

    EDIT: A professional (by definition) is a person that is paid to undertake a specific task blah blah blah. Don't go there.

    EDIT: Go back up and look at Drakulie's post. He sort of warned you not to do it. On the racket he posted cross 2 (9h) was opened up but if you look the main was also used in the past for tying off and the only tie at the top is a cross. He also told you pro players get free rackets and grommets. I am not saying I would not do it I'm saying I would seriously consider the consequences and would not recommend it for all rackets.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
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  30. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    I don't understand the bolded comment in your post. There is zero additional stress on the frame doing this as it would have been strung anyway.

    As to it being better, it has been recommended by folks who string for a living and work with folks who play tennis for a living so I'll defer to them.

    Roger? Next time you see Roger, tell him Gomer sez hey. ;)

    Come on now Irvin, this is being a pit picayune don't you think? I think when someone says "professional" they mean a professional stringer. This would be one who does nothing else, it's not a hobby; i.e. one who strings for people who play tennis for a living. My disappointment is that you knew what the poster was referring to.

    I don't believe there is any consequence in doing this. The grommet wall is not going to be weakened enough to make any difference. What I read Drakulie post was what I do albeit without the 2nd piece of string. I lube and awl and very carefully enlarge the grommet hole enough for a 2nd string. Again, there is zero damage to the frame or grommet. And, it doesn't hurt anything.

    The benefit again of tying off on a cross is less tension loss.
     
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  31. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Normally the second cross feeds the third cross (9H to 11H.) Using the outside main to feed the third cross (10H to 11H) has a shorter section of frame.
     
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  32. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Wikipedia says, "A professional is a person who is paid to undertake a specialized set of tasks and to complete them for a fee." I think of myself as a professional. When I look at Dimitrov's racket it is clear to me the crosses have been tied off on the mains at 5H and on the second cross @ 9H. I don't think all professional stringers tie a cross on a cross and a main on a main all the time although sometimes I think it is a great idea.

    When one says professional stringers do it this way or that way you are making big assumptions.
     
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  33. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    What I do not like about tying a cross on a cross is sometimes you must use an awl or some other device to stretch the grommets and weaken them (not counting the extra stress of the knot) and then again some times you don't. If you have to stress the grommet so the string will fit in I don't like it.
     
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  34. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    The distance or section of the frame to the 3rd cross is really about as far from that main as it is to the first cross. Again, I don't see where it makes a difference. And, that distance is usually greater than those required when doing an ATW.

    OK, so you would prefer every post to spell out every detail to the nth degree? I'll remember that when I read your posts in the future. No one should ever use a term that has any chance of ambiguity. Got it.

    Again, I find the nit picking disappointing from you as you have always been above that. You knew full well what he meant. When someone refers to a 'professional' tennis player, can I say that applies to anyone who has ever made $1 playing in a local tournament? No, there are basic definitions of terms used here.

    And Wikipedia? Please.

    Again with "weaken". How exactly does it weaken the grommet? Has anyone anywhere ever seen a failure from this? I've been stringing for 30 years and not once have I seen a grommet fail because it was "weakened" due to someone enlarging it enough to allow 1.30 mm (at most) string piece to fit through.
     
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  35. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    Hey, Drakulie, Would it be okay if I asked you a few more questions about professional stringing?
     
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  36. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    I'm going to make a quick note to the discussion here as to whether opening up a grommet hole more, or tying main on main, cross on cross is good or bad, etc.

    It is my opinion that tying a main on main and cross on cross is better than main on cross, cross on main. I don't see any negative whenever you avoid putting stress on an anchor string, and it seems that this wisdom has reached the engineering rooms of racquet designers as evidenced by many now making larger grommet holes to allow stringers to choose where to tie off. (wilson, donnay, babolat, etc).
     
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  37. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    I'll answer anything I can within reason. Thanks.
     
    #37
  38. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    Thanks for the help Drak!:)
     
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  39. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    Okay, I wanted to know what tension Dimitrov Strings is racquets at? I was also wondering if you strung Alexandr Dolgopolov's racquets? If you did can you tell me his string set up and tension. Last Question, To my knowledge You and P1 were the stringers at the cincy tournament Correct? If you were I was wondering what knot you and P1 use?

    If you do not feel comfortable answering any of the questions above I understand.:)

    Thanks, Roger Wawrinka
     
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  40. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Roger Wawrinka, you need to keep in mind that players change tension a lot. Not only during the course of a tournament, but throughout the course of a year. For example, a player could begin stringing at 55 for his morning practice, and then go up to 56 for his match or even go down in tension. They may even send a racquet to the stringing room during a match to be strung at a totally different tension. The next day, they may choose to string at 52, etc. The next tournament, they may begin stringing at 60. Players go up or down, and don't necessarily stay with one tension. That said, Dimitrov, from what I remember was stringing around the 26kg mains/25kg crosses.

    I did not string Dolgopolv's frame, but do remember him using wilson gut and luxilon 4g. Not sure about tension.

    Yes, I was asked by Priority One (P1) to join their stringing team at Cincy. I'm unsure as to what knot they use. I use a one and a half hitch knot,,,,, also known as a:

    Overhand knot
    PC Knot
    Pro Knot
    Wilson Knot
    Wilson Pro Knot
    Surgeons Knot
    etc

    here is a video where I demonstrate it, along with the use of a cam action plier:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDwAnjSYcxQ
     
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  41. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    I knew players changed tension, but not like that, wow! Thanks for answering all my questions, that meant a lot to me:) Man, a lot of these players have been using the 4G lately, Wonder what's so great about it?

    Thanks, Roger Wawrinka
     
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  42. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    Hey Drak, can I ask you 2 more questions? My dream is to string at a professional tournament once and how did you get asked by P1 to help them string? Are you very well known in Florida? Also, are you always supposed to mount the racquet with the buttcap facing up?


    Thanks, Roger Wawrinka
     
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  43. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yes, always try and mount the frame the right way. As for stringing at pro tournaments, first learn to string appropriately without cutting corners. String for yourself, friends and perhaps some folks in your area. Learn as much as you can and improve on all skills involved. String at a local shop, or offering/volunteering at local tournaments, a high school or local college will give you much needed experience with volume stringing. From there, you could begin stringing at bigger tournaments.

    You need to keep in mind that at these large tournaments, you could be stringing upwards of 40 frames in one day, and then another 30+ the next day, and this goes on for a week, which is not easy. So, you need to be prepared to be standing on your feet all day, and be focused throughout a 10-14 day period.

    As for P1, I met them earlier this year, and they were aware I strung at many tournaments and for a living. I suppose they liked me enough to ask. Either that, or perhaps they felt sorry for me. :)
     
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  44. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    haha I'm sure they didn't feel sorry for you:). Thanks for the tips on pro stringing, it's really cool to talk to someone that's done so many professional racquets. Could I shoot you an email sometime if you have one? If you don't want to give away an email address I understand.
     
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  45. tennytive

    tennytive Semi-Pro

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    Thank you for that video. That would have come in handy for me last Sunday while stringing a Youtek Speed Lite. The marked tie off hole at the head is 6 instead of 5 like it is at the bottom. This means the knot is almost touching the top cross and is a tight fit with 15L, which was requested by the customer. I used a starting clamp on the first cross and tied off later with a Parnell. I think your Pro knot would have taken less space and not come so close to the cross mentioned.

    I could have avoided this by stringing one piece, but I remember Head is finicky about their rackets being strung 2 piece, so I thought that would be the safer choice. Everything would have been much easier had Head matched the top tie off hole to the bottom (5).
     
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  46. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    So we been talking about tying-off poly on the 2nd cross for natural gut in the mains........What about natural gut in the crosses? Do you tie off the gut on your poly in the mains or do you tie off your natural gut on natural gut in the crosses?


    :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2012
    #46
  47. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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