How would a modern 4.5 player fare against Evert in her prime?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Claudius, Aug 25, 2009.

?

Who wins?

  1. Evert

    84.4%
  2. 4.5 player.

    15.6%
  1. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    A few more items in favor of Evert:

    + defense (including lobs, etc)
    + anticipation
    + return of serve
    + overhead (consistent)
    + ability to adjust to sun, wind, weather, & different court conditions

    Items in favor of 4.5 player:

    + max bench press (bounced off of the sternum)
    + max curls (swung up with body momentum)

     
  2. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    What are you smoking? :oops:

    What 4.5 do you know that hit's consistent 110 mph 'bombs'... most of the professional women in the WTA (NTRP 7.0+) can't even hit these types of serves, consistently.
     
  3. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Are you kidding? This guy looks really good, just based on his technique and footwork, I'd say 6.0+ but would have to see him play a match.

    Someone like this, if he's match tough may take Evert at 55... but in her prime it's a tough call.
     
  4. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    I watched Michelle Larcher De Brito play Sorana Cirstea in Carson (Los Angeles) a few weeks ago on one of the outer courts.

    I was sitting about 5' from the court. Even though she lost her 1st round match (6-4, 7-5), she could beat any open level male player I've seen play at the club level in San Diego, hands down. The amount of spin she was placing on the ball and the depth she was achieving was insane.

    WTA professionals are in a different realm than any male club players, even at the open level.

    It would be interesting to see someone like Larcher de Brito play a high-ranked college male player. I'd put my money on Larcher de Brito, based on what I witnessed.
     
  5. Claudius

    Claudius Professional

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    The thing you don't understand is Chrissy used a wooden racquet before using a wilson graphite.


    I just dont think she'll get the job done with a wooden racquet.
     
  6. SourStraws

    SourStraws Rookie

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    You over exaggerate that factor...

    S.S.
     
  7. Claudius

    Claudius Professional

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    I understand that Chris Evert is one of the greatest players of all time. She had no weapons, but her unrivaled mental strength and steadiness from the back of the court compensated for her lack of brute power. We are all underestimating how much of a factor equipment makes. If you watch her play court level, her normal rally shots sit up. That's just a fact. Of course players back then couldn't blast those sitters, but do you realize what a 4.5 with a pure drive w/ a poly setup could do? They'll take advantage of those sitters and blast them. Of course they probably won't be winners, but how in the world would Chris Evert maintain her rhythm with a wooden frame, that heavy wooden frame? My prediction is that a strong 4.5 will put her on the defense the whole time. Just think about, do you think a 4.5 won't punish those sitters?
     
  8. SourStraws

    SourStraws Rookie

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    Can a 4.5 hit harder than martina navratilova?

    S.S.
     
  9. LES

    LES Semi-Pro

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    Dude a 4.5 isn't that good. I hit regularly with 4.5 and he beats me regularly but he's nowhere near the level of my coach who's about 5.5. And that guy is nowhere the level of my last coach who recently played #1 seed at a Div 1 school. Nobody but the 4.5 plays USTA so I don't know their levels. But I can tell when I play them who could beat who.

    On my local courts there's one girl who hits with with this dude. I'd say the dude is an ex Div 1 player. I seriously think she would beat me coach who's a 5.5
     
  10. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    I've seen a WTA player get it handed to her by a top 20 high school player during a hitting session. A 5.0-6.0 male would be able to hang with alot of lower level WTA pros.



    It's the top 100 WTA that are waaaaaaaaaaaay better than given credited for. Still, upper level male players (Division 1 College tennis players, top ranked juniors, etc.) would still beat them quite easily.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2009
  11. Blake0

    Blake0 Hall of Fame

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    I don't even know who evert is and chose him..very difficult for anyone to beat a former pro..especially in the 4.5s..not to mention he was in the top. It also depends on how fit he is and stuff, but if he is generally fit and can move alright, and has practiced for awhile..Evert > 4.5.
     
  12. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    Surely you've heard of Chris Evert?
     
  13. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    IMO, you're grossly overestimating the tennis ability of a 4.5 player.
     
  14. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    Your harping on the wood racquet thing - but you never claimed she couldn't use proper equitment in the earlier post. I think your just trying to defend your dumb thread.

    She would win. I think she would probably still win with a wood racquet. Most tennis players could still play with a wood racquet. I played with them before its not THAT bad.. <g>

    Pete
     
  15. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    way better!!
     
  16. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Larcher de Brito is nearly top 100 (#109)... and trust me, she was good.
     
  17. SB

    SB Rookie

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    You're kidding, right?
     
  18. LanEvo

    LanEvo Hall of Fame

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    a pro is a pro, period.
     
  19. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    Absolutely. Like I said my teaching pro - a 5.5 says he cannot beat Sharapova who is not as good as Evert. Why would a 4.5 (who would get dominated by said teaching pro) be able to beat her in her prime?

    You just don't get how good a pro women is - and how much gap there is between levels. A 5.5 CREAMS a 4.5 EVERY SINGLE TIME.

    A pro women is a 7.0 - so there is a about a 1 level difference between men and woman (at the top level). So there for you better be a weak 6.0 to hang with a women and a stronger 6.0 or 6.5.

    FWIW Gavin Rossdale is a very good tennis player - like around a 5.0. He plays on the celebrity circuit - and is the kind of guy who can afford a crap load of coaching and lessons..way more then the average 4.5.

    he was interviewed in tennis magazine..

    It’s very Zen because I always play people that are usually professional tennis players. So it’s not like I’m really going to be able to beat them. My goal is to hang with them, and hit properly and train properly. So that’s what I do, and yeah – I’m competitive with myself, which is what tennis is. Just try and do it right. I don’t hit and giggle, hit and giggle, that stuff. I want to do it right. So I have fun being intense.

    Also Mark Phillipousis worked with him to reconstruct his forehand. Also the guy is in great shape. Like I said he is a 5.0 or maybe 5.5. There are some good amateur tennis players out there. You just need to be young athletic and wealthy. :p
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2009
  20. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Bud, with all due respect, I don't think it is an "opinion", it is a fact the OP is **GROSSLY** over estimating the ability of a 4.5.

    Like I said in another post, there are millions of 4.5 players around the world. In comparison, there are only a handful of people who have won a Grand Slam Championship and reached Number 1 player in the world out of the hundreds of millions of people who have played tennis.

    Chris Evert routinely practiced and played against male Grand Slam Champions. There is absolutely nothing a 4.5 player has that she hasn't seen ten thousand times from far superior players.

    I'm quite certain the OP is probably in awe of a few higher level players in his area, which is why he is so convinced these players could take it to Evert.

    Lastly, Harold Solomon who is in his 50's, never reached number 1 in the world or won a grand slam, kicks the living snot out of top juniors and current challenger/futures player while they are at his academy. he would make it look worse when he was in his prime.

    and yes!!!! these juniors are hitting with modern frames/poly strings, absolutely blast the ball with insane spin, and are far above 5.0 players.
     
  21. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    Tennis ball trajectory is limited by the laws of physics. Also the ability to run down a hard hit shot is also limited by physics. Pro players aren't pros simply because they can hit so much harder than non-pros, but that they can hit with that kind of power with good placement more consistently than non-pros, and can also tolerate powerful shots coming at them better as well.

    I don't think that seems unrealistic for a 4.5 to blast some 120mph bombs. A 120mph serve is still a 120mph serve regardless of whether a pro hits it or a 4.5. The difference is that a pro can depend on this serve to win games and matches. A 4.5 will likely not be able to reproduce this serve with good placement consistently enough to fare well against a pro. Too many times they would fault and the pro would destroy their second serve.

    Same goes with hitting winners. If a 4.5 goes all out on their groundstrokes they may hit some winners, but it will be hard to do this enough to actually dictate play.

    I believe that a 4.5 who serves big and has a solid day on their groundies could probably win a few games off a WTA pro, but its not guaranteed and they would never be able to do this enough to actually win a set or even break the WTA pro.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2009
  22. ItsJustaBall

    ItsJustaBall New User

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    So basically one would have to believe that Chris Evert isn't as skilled as
    "the 41-year-old substitute teacher.... She rates a 5.0 on the National Tennis Rating Program's 7.0 scale," who is suing the city of Raleigh because 4.5 MALES who she's beaten numerous times are refusing/afraid to play her in challenge ladders?

    http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1642288.html

    Also playing with a wooden racquet isn't as bad as some make it out to be. I play with a Prostaff 6.0 and Chris Evert Wilson wood (12 oz) (picked up from goodwill $2 for fun) the wood is lighter than the Prostaff.

    People I normally beat with the Prostaff, I still beat with the wooden racquet. People who I am really close in skill where we split 50/50, I lose 9/10 times, but it's not like I can't win with wood.

    I play at 4.0, so maybe it's different at 4.5+, but I doubt it. I'm sure Pete Sampras using a Jack Kramer Wood Prostaff would still be awesome.
     
  23. Arafel

    Arafel Professional

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    Martina Navratilova was clocked hitting 100mph serves with her wooden racquet at the US Open in 1981 when she played Tracy Austin (I have the match on DVD).

    The idiots in this thread going on about how the serve would overpower Evert have a) probably never hit with a wooden racquet b) severely overestimate how hard their serves are.

    Besides, Evert switched to a PS85 in 84; why wouldn't she use that frame?
     
  24. LES

    LES Semi-Pro

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    Nah, I don't think a 4.5 could ANY games off a WTA pro. 4.5 is not good enough.

    If 7.0 woman = 6.0 man, then do the math. It's like saying a 4.5 could get a game off a 6.0 man.
     
  25. smoothtennis

    smoothtennis Hall of Fame

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    Chris Evert evolved along with everybody else and played professional tennis with a Prostaff graphite racket ok? She clearly hit harder during that period along with the fact that the balls coming at her were more of the modern pace and spin. As I said, Monica Seles lost to her in the US Open - and we all know Monica had tennis way beyond a male 4.5.

    She would no more use a wood racket than a male 4.5 today would.
     
  26. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/...DB004DC9ACD0998695843B1A09082F3E7D&CYear=2007

    What this shows is a 7.0 player (Wayne Odesnik) losing a couple games to 5.5 players.

    It is hard to double bagel people even if they are significantly weaker than you. If someone has a big serve, they can score games against superior opponents, but it rarely actually results in a victory.
     
  27. LES

    LES Semi-Pro

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    Yeah but I'm talking about 4.5 vs 6.0.

    I don't know about you, but, I play with one 4.5 with a bomb serve and I've had teachers who were 5.0+ and one recent Div 1 player as a teacher.

    4.5 guy kills me with his serve, but I doubt my teachers would have any probs with it. He hits it hard and fast but as long as I can block the ball over I have 50/50 chance of winning the point. I think if my teacher who is the Div 1 guy can get it over (which he will), he'll win every point. To me their skill level is worlds apart
     
  28. acehigh

    acehigh Rookie

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    Why are some people so full of themselves? Must be a macho thing. They use words like I ace this or I over power that as if pulling rabbits out of a hat. Yet went faced with some old pusher they are totally lost in what to do and just self destruct. How would a 4.5 player perform if playing in a Grand Slam final environment? Even most of the top pros are wobbly at the knees just walking onto Center Court. If Chris Evert can play like that in GS finals, she’s probably 100 times better in a normal game. Sorry, but 4.5 players are not even in the same universe as Chris Evert and should leave town whenever Chris is around.
     
  29. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    If you are blocking the ball back, then you are at a disadvantage in the point, so your odds should be less than 50/50. Like I said, a good 4.5 who can serve huge and back it up with some solid groundies can certainly win points against much better players than themselves. Like I said, when playing against much better players, you don't get as many opportunities to do this and you will hit a point where you can't do it consistent enough to actually be a threat to your opponent. But even a high ranke opponent is going to make mistakes so thats why I think its possible maybe for a solid 4.5 male to win some games against 7.0 female, but I would never see them winning a set.
     
  30. Claudius

    Claudius Professional

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    A 4.5 wouldn't a win a single game against a 7.0 female.
     
  31. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    But they wouldn't be 4.5's anymore, they would be 5.0 or 5.5 players.

    Mch less a 18 time grand slam singles champion, # 1 ranked player in the world for 1974-1978, 80, and 81. with a .900 winning percentage (Greatest of all time), amongst many other incredible achievements.
     
  32. Claudius

    Claudius Professional

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    [​IMG]


    >


    [​IMG]
     
  33. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    ^^^^^ OK, so in other words, a 4 year old beginner could whoop you if you were playing with a wood frame, and the beginner was using the APD.

    Thanks for telling us how low your tennis rating is.
     
  34. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    So you are saying the best serve a 4.5 could ever hit would never phase a pro? And if they could and a pro hit a weak return, no groundstroke a 4.5 could ever hit would be good enough to end the point?
     
  35. tikkimonkey

    tikkimonkey Rookie

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    What about a 71 mph ace? Gonzalez vs Reynolds, 2008 US Open R2. :p Plaaacement.
     
  36. I think after 130+ posts and over 2,000 views, the OP got the attention he wanted.
     
  37. Claudius

    Claudius Professional

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    Do you honestly think a 4.5 would allow Chris Evert to be steady from the back of the court? A 4.5 would at least try to crush those sitters and although they might not all go win a majority of them will. How will Chris Evert handle that kind of pace with her wooden racquet?
     
  38. Claudius

    Claudius Professional

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    I'm not an attention seeking *****. :roll:
     
  39. LES

    LES Semi-Pro

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    Let me reverse the question. You're about a 4.0 no? Don't you think you could double bagel a 2.5 every time - 100% of the time?


    That's what a pro thinks of a 4.5
     
  40. dmtree

    dmtree Rookie

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    have you ever played with a wooden racquet? it's not a frying pan, it does have strings and you can use it to hit with pace, though more flat strokes as it's not as easy to generate topspin.

    i actually remember being blown off the court by someone with a wooden racquet. :oops:
     
  41. myalterego

    myalterego Rookie

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    This entire argument is laughable. No 4.5 who plays at his/her local club would be able to defeat a Grand Slam champion. I don't know who some of you think you are; you play a few tournaments in your area and you think you can beat an 18-time Grand Slam winner. Haha.
     
  42. Claudius

    Claudius Professional

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    Can Sir Lancelot kill an average modern-day soldier with an M16?
     
  43. myalterego

    myalterego Rookie

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    Are you crazy?

    No, a sword and an M16 are different. An M16 can take a person out from a distance.

    A racquet is still a racquet. You still have to serve, hit forehands, backhands, slice, play the net, etc. People are hiding too much behind their Babolat racquets in a vain attempt to slander some of the greatest and consistent tennis players of the open era.
     
  44. Claudius

    Claudius Professional

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    Can Buffalo Bill with a Colt revolver kill a modern day solider with an M16?
     
  45. myalterego

    myalterego Rookie

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    A gun is a gun. A bullet is a bullet, and if you're shot in the head, you will most likely die.

    What is the point you're trying to make?
     
  46. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    2.5, yes only because no 2.5s have anything that comes close to resembling a weapon. But there are 4.5s who can serve at the same pace as a pro.
     
  47. Claudius

    Claudius Professional

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    Technology.
     
  48. myalterego

    myalterego Rookie

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    The technology between racquets from 20-30 years ago and today is significant, but not so significant that a world-class player will get her **** rocked by some club player.
     
  49. LES

    LES Semi-Pro

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    You don't get it.

    A pro would view a 4.5 the same way you view a 2.5. No weapons. Yes they are THAT GOOD
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2009
  50. VaBeachTennis

    VaBeachTennis Semi-Pro

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    I agree, I just watched some of the WTA ladies practicing on FYB2007's youtube site. I had a really good belly laugh at the folks who consider themselves 4.5's or whatever, having the ABSOLUTE DELUSION that they could beat any of these ladies. The may be able to take a few games from them if the ladies had a few coctails and played with their non dominant arm...................What a JOKE!!!!! These ladies were rallying and practicing with advanced level guys, way beyond a 4.5. Some of these cocky 4.5's would be laughed off of the court if they came to play against these ladies or Chris Evert for that matter, with their attitudes. I'd love to see it!!!!
    I always tell my wife that these chicks would kick my ass and I laugh at the thought of being blown off of the court by them......................it would be fun.
     

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