How would a modern 4.5 player fare against Evert in her prime?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Claudius, Aug 25, 2009.

?

Who wins?

  1. Evert

    84.4%
  2. 4.5 player.

    15.6%
  1. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    As a reference point, one of the frequent posters here on TW,
    a 4.0/4.5 recently played a female ex-d1 player and lost
    like 5-7or something like that. It was a competitive match but
    I never felt like the 4.0/4.5 could pull it out. the ex d1 player
    had slower footspeed and her hardest shots were not as
    hard as the male 4.0/4.5 but she:

    - hit deeper.
    - was more consistent
    - returned better.
    - volleyed better
    - better footwork.
    - better conditioning
    - better mental toughness.

    4.0/4.5 advantages:
    - heavier shots
    - bigger FW
    - bigger serve (but weaker 2nd serve)
    - faster footspeed
     
  2. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Talent at 4.5 can really vary sooo much. I sort of took for granted that we were talking about a top notch 4.5 and him playing against Chrissy projected with the game she was sporting back in the day.

    If you are talking a about her ability to step it up if she was young and on the court today, then she clearly would be doing well in the women's pro tour, as she would adjust nicely to the things going on in the game today.

    But the game has moved way forward since her day, so taking her old game, with a wood racket, and playing an excellent 4.5 male (especially if his serve is top notch) would be tough for her.

    I'll give a good example. I had a big 14 yr old boy with very nice serve and a pretty big game overall. His weakness was the very consistent roadrunner type players. We put him in a match against a 18 yr old girl headed to GA tech as their top recruit and one of the top American jrs. She had a big girls game and very consistent to boot! The other coaches didn't think he would get a game off her, but I said not so fast. He crushed her 1 & 1 , as holding serve was very routine for him, but her excellent girl serves provided him with little trouble. He was a threat to break every game. She never earned a break point on his serve. Sorry, but the men's game is way beyond the ladies, even though many don't want to acknowledge it. A good 4.5 in my area will have little problem with a Current DI lady player.
     
  3. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    McEnroe today can still compete with top level ATP pros in one set. What makes you think a 6.0 could even fathom actually beating him, despite having a technological and athleticism advantage over him? Uh...... yeah. In fact, McEnroe today could probably still compete at a fairly good level on the ATP tour when we're talking about 1 set matches (probably somewhere in the neighborhood of the top 200). I mean seriously. This is a guy who is capable of having very competitive matches (and sometimes beating them) against Edberg, Sampras, and Courier, all who are way younger than him.


    Borg is Borg. He would just hit every ball back and the 6.0 would eventually implode on himself.




    In fact, it is not an absurd comment at all. Most former grand slam champions of the wood era today can still beat 99.9% of the population with a wood racquet.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2009
  4. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    couple questions for you:

    1) just how big was thig 14 year old? how highly ranked is he?
    and how hard and consistent is his game? serve?
    2) how does he do against a 4.5 mens player?
    3) what area do you live? I mean 4.5's range from like
    20's to 60 year old guys.
    4) are you claiming that a "good" 4.5 mens player in your
    area will easily beat a top d1 girl? could they beat a low
    ranked WTA player? quite a few of the top d1 girls have WTA
    rankings and wins.

    I personally haven't seen too many 4.5 men play WTA or
    d1 girls so I'm not sure what the outcome would be, but
    I suppose a guy with a heavy game and good kick serve
    might do pretty well. The footspeed is probably what makes
    a big difference.


     
  5. Kirko

    Kirko Hall of Fame

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    Evert could toss back of wild turkey >>>

    and still cream a "4.5" player for whatever thats worth.
     
  6. mtommer

    mtommer Hall of Fame

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    Go back and watch these two players playing with wood racquets. Then watch the links I posted. Go back to the old, then back to the new. Again. Now, be silly enough to tell anyone here that those strokes don't look the same and that those two players aren't hitting HARDER or equally with the WOOD racquets. Son, it ain't the racquet.
     
  7. ZPTennis

    ZPTennis Semi-Pro

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    Um, no he can't. He would lose. You really are lacking knowledge in the ratings level department. Go ask any USPTA pro how 50 year old McEnroe would do against a guy who's rated around 6.0.

    Bill and I don't agree on some things, but he would say the same thing on this question I would hope, and hes the only USPTA certified guy on the forums that I know of. My dad is former USPTA, and is a national champion in 45 doubles. But I doubt you'll believe me if I quote my dad saying the same thing.


    Don't get me wrong, I sure as hell couldn't beat McEnroe even at his age now, but a 6.0 would have no trouble winning.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2009
  8. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    A 6.0 would beat John McEnroe today? Are you serious? You DO realize John McEnroe won an ATP level doubles tournament (San Jose) just a few years ago right?



    McEnroe wins sets (and sometimes wins matches) off of Courier, Sampras, Edberg, and other former pros who would wipe the floor with any 6.0 on the planet. You honestly think a 6.0 would be able to take McEnroe? They would be lucky to win points.



    I don't lack any knowledge at all. If McEnroe was taking the match seriously, he'd easily crush a 6.0 player. Without a sweat. He might lose a game because he lost interest, but that's about it.



    Honestly. Let me get this straight. John McEnroe, who plays competitive matches against legendary grand slam players, and beats ATP ranked players in World Team Tennis is going to lose to a 6.0? Really? REALLY? McEnroe easily beats a 6.0 with a wood racquet much less a graphite, where he probably wouldn't drop anymore than 5 points if he was playing seriously.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2009
  9. Danstevens

    Danstevens Semi-Pro

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    I'm not sure if I would go that far. Most 6.0 players are in great physical condition and much younger than JMac is now (although I'd imagine that McEnroe is incredibly fit for his age). I think it could be pretty tight but I've no doubt McEnroe would pull through in the end. I think the 6.0 would get more than 5 points and might hold serve a few times but even as old as he is now, McEnroe is a superb player and would win with relative ease. The score would be fairly close (maybe 1 break of serve in each set) but I just think that Mac would be in control throughout.
     
  10. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Maybe with a wood racquet; when McEnroe is holding a graphite racquet he's creaming a 6.0 without dropping nothing more than 5-10 points at most. Remember, this is a guy who beats WTT players who are ranked in the top 500. At the age of 50. He isn't dropping anything more than 5-10 points to a 6.0 if he was playing with a graphite racquet. And those 5-10 points, I only attribute to errors on McEnroe's part.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2009
  11. ZPTennis

    ZPTennis Semi-Pro

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    Seriously. You really don't understand. No Offense. Double and Singles. Two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT games. I have no doubt he does very well in doubles even in the ATP. You do not need the speed, endurance and heavy groundstroke ability that you need in singles.

    McEnroe has some of the greatest vollies of all time, despite his technique not being great, but his vollies are, which is essential in doubles obviously.

    But, 50 year old McEnroe is not going to be able to slug it out in SINGLES running all over the court against a 6.0 who is trying training to make it past the futures. 6.0 players are seriously good. Go watch a futures tournament sometime. They are out for blood and tennis is their only dream that their entire life is dedicated to. Now picture any great 50 year old including McEnroe trying to hang with those guys. They're main problem is going to be tiring out with their 2nd problem being lack of power compared to the young 6.0's. Go ask your local pro this question since its obvious you are not going to believe me.
     
  12. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    No, you don't understand.



    McEnroe routines top 500 ATP players in World Team Tennis without breaking a sweat in singles. You honestly think a 6.0 player is going to BEAT McEnroe? Fat chance.



    A 6.0 struggles to win points off of McEnroe. Anyone short of a former pro / current pro would not beat McEnroe today. McEnroe today still shows that he is fully capable of beating top 500 ATP pros (some who are in the top 200). In fact, McEnroe played a 1 set exhibition with Roddick not too long ago and had no trouble dealing with his serve or groundstrokes at all.




    So explain to me this :


    1. McEnroe beats top 500 ATP Pros
    2. McEnroe recently beat Sampras on the seniors tour recently (Which Sampras takes fairly seriously). Sampras is definitely going to cream a 6.0 without dropping many points.



    So how is the above guy going to lose to a 6.0 who can't even beat Futures level players (which are predominantly juniors, journey man who are in the lower rankings, and college players).
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2009
  13. ZPTennis

    ZPTennis Semi-Pro

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    I've already explained as much as I can to you. Go ask your local head pro at any semi prestigous club. You should also learn what exhibitions are and how they are played. Roddick isn't there to embarass McEnroe. The only matches you can ever trust are ones played for real ranking such as on the pro tour.

    When you really know tennis, you will also realize when players are going easy on other players. Such as Roddick probably serving right into McEnroe's strike zone. Not hard to return a ball when it comes right into your hitting zone. The Nuveen tour which is now more commonly called the Senior tour was full of all kinds of ********. I used to watch it each year b/c they came to our city to play. You should have seen some of the points where it was so obvious that the other better player was trying to keep it close. The majority of the crowd would clap and my family and I who have been in tennis our whole lives were hysterically laughing at how many people actually were buying it. This was more in the tours early days when the tour first started. Not sure if that kind of stuff still goes on.

    But my point is that they will "tempo" the match for crowd enjoyment.

    Regarding Roddick lets be serious here. Roddick routinely overwhelm's anyone on the tour with his serve on his good days, including Federer which is why it took Federer going to an epic 5th set to beat him at Wimbledon. Your out of your mind if you think 50 year old McEnroe can handle his serve with no problems. That's why they are called Exhibitions!!!
     
  14. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    So you're saying those top 500 ATP pros that McEnroe rolls over in singles in WTT just hand the match to him? Really? I highly doubt it. Not many people would like to get beaten by a 50 year old man, especially when you are supposed to be a professional tennis player ranked top 500 in the world.



    I know what my local head USTA pro would say. He would say John McEnroe today would absolutely cream a 6.0 without dropping a game.




    Let's see how ridiculous you sound so far :


    4.5 can beat D1 college female players?


    4.5 can beat Evert in her prime?


    6.0 male can beat the legendary John McEnroe (who beats up on ranked players in the top 500 today)





    Dude, just give up. This isn't even a contest. There is no way in hell a 6.0 would ever beat McEnroe today. Never in a million years. Especially since McEnroe just recently beat Sampras (who by no means takes the Senior Tour as a joke at all, he's pretty competitive and serious when playing), beats top 500 ATP pros in World Team Tennis, still competes fairly well against most top ATP pros even today in a one set match.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2009
  15. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    I did ask my pro - he said Johnny Mac would crush a 6.0. Mac's touch is seriously AMAZING. Its god like. He wouldn't slug it out with guys - but he would still beat them.

    Mac plays regularly and keeps himself in very good shape nowadays. Don't sell him short..He says he can serve bigger now then when he played on the tour.

    Pete
     
  16. Claudius

    Claudius Professional

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    Let's be serious here. John McEnroe isn't going to beat a 6.0. Do you consider Devon Britton to be a 6.0? Are you saying McEnroe can beat him?
     
  17. Arafel

    Arafel Professional

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    Devon Britton is probably closer to a 7.0. Having said that, in a one set match, yes, McEnroe would beat him.

    Honestly, the disconnect some of you have between your beliefs about the ability level of both yourselves and the pros is astonishing.
     
  18. Ano

    Ano Hall of Fame

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  19. Thud and blunder

    Thud and blunder Semi-Pro

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    I agree. So why do you provide your 'match' against a D1 girl as some kind of strong evidence?
     
  20. vanciki

    vanciki Banned

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    Evert. Prime Evert would be competitive with a todays strong college player 5.5 - 6.0 who is 3 worlds away from 4.5.
     
  21. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    D1 doesn't mean that much. There is a big difference between a ranked and unranked D1 player. Some D1 players are actually equivalent to 4.5 players, so yeah a 4.0-4.5 male could easily beat some unranked D1 females.
     
  22. Thud and blunder

    Thud and blunder Semi-Pro

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    My bad...ZPT was talking about his hit with an ATP ranked woman, not a D1 player...same principle though.
     
  23. ZPTennis

    ZPTennis Semi-Pro

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    Yeah the D1's were not ranked top in the country or anything.

    But the 303rd ranked WTA girl I played was damn good. My games were won off of immediate offense only while I was serving. Her technique was flawless but her only small weakness I could expose was when I would get first strike with my forehand off her return of serve. My serve did bother her some as she was unable to return them to a location that could neutralize my forehand for those games I won. I do have to admit though that it was frustrating that service winners were rare and only had one ace. I played extremely well that day since I tend to be the type of player that rises to the occasion against someone really good. If a point involved me hitting mroe than 4 groundstrokes, I lost probably over 90% of those. My forehand was on and despite being somewhat in the zone, I still lost.
     
  24. Ano

    Ano Hall of Fame

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    You have a nice kicker. Have you ever measured the speed of your kick serves?
     
  25. ZPTennis

    ZPTennis Semi-Pro

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  26. Ano

    Ano Hall of Fame

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    I can place my kick serve accurately, but I can't put as much pace as you. (I've been working on it).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zitj5GG3eU0
     
  27. ZPTennis

    ZPTennis Semi-Pro

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    Hey I've seen your video before. Thats a really nice kick serve to bring your opponent off the court. You can still still maintain some good spin if you throw it into the court more which in turn will definitely increase the speed since you'll be able to lean your body into it more. You might lost a little spin but it will definitely bring the speed up.
     
  28. Ano

    Ano Hall of Fame

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    thanks for the tip.
     
  29. sliceboy33

    sliceboy33 Rookie

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    4.5 male player beating Crissie at her prime?! DonĀ“t make me laugh...
     
  30. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Modern 4.5 player might beat current #500 in the WTA if she's injured, out of shape, scared to serve, and blindfolded.
    Talking REAL match, not "hey, let's play a few points" tennis.
     
  31. crash1929

    crash1929 Hall of Fame

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    evert would win. come on give the ladies a little respect.
     
  32. li0scc0

    li0scc0 Hall of Fame

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    Is this post a joke?

    My wife is a 4.5 and routinely beats 4.0 men players.

    Chris Evert is a heck of a lot better than my wife. I think she could handle most 4.5 men prreeeetttty easy.
     
  33. li0scc0

    li0scc0 Hall of Fame

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    Agreed. Look, a good woman player has the same reaction time as a good male player. They might not be as strong or as fast, but unless the power serve is well placed, they can get it back.

    Plus you might be surprised at the foot speed of outstanding women players. Faster than some 4.5's I know.
     
  34. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Pretty weak 4.0 men or your wife is a heck of a 4.5, or mostly likely some of both.
     
  35. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Hey lets use these hero worship guys exhibition tennis example and show them what they are saying.

    So Mac just beat Pete, and Pete just beat Fed, and Fed is the greatest of all time.

    Well I guess that means that really, Mac at 50, is the greatest of all time.
     
  36. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    She would smoke a 4.5 player. A 5.5 guy with a huge serve and can volley might have a shot at making it competitive.
     
  37. xFullCourtTenniSx

    xFullCourtTenniSx Hall of Fame

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    You crazy!

    Evert has excellent racket control and she can consistently hit deep and rally for hours if necessary before hitting an error. Can a 4.5 do that? No I think they'll crack around 40. Against Evert... He'll crack at 20 or 30.

    I think Evert with a woodie would win too! Haha.
     
  38. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I think what is lost on many here is how far the game has come.

    Let's use other sports where they use time to measure how good they are.

    Mark Spitz came back 20 years later to try for a come back. He came up 2 secs short, but had surpassed some of his former records. The sport had come so far that even though he himself was better than he was back in the day,
    AND WE are Talking HIS VERY BEST DAY,
    it still came up short to even have a chance to qualify.
    So literally scores of swimmers were much better than his old records, AND these were World and Olympic records, Not an avg day in the pool. This is hard for even top level coaches to comprehend, as I've listened to them discuss it. They can't believe that mere high level teens can smoke the performances of top records of the past.

    Mac now might could even dominate a set off of the younger Mac, because the sport has advanced and he has too. The 80s Mac was awesome, but only against 80s players and before.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2009
  39. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    Not even her prime, Evert could probably still beat a 4.5 male player today with a wood racket. She still hits a lot at her academy. Recently, she said the top juniors can now beat her, something that didn't happen a few years ago.

    The 4.5 will have an edge in mobility and speed, but that might be about it. He might be able to serve harder but her serves will be more effective due to a level of placement 4.5 guy has never seen.

    I played a woman in her late 30's who used to be ranked outside of the top 100 in the early 80's, late 70's. This was right before my freshman year in college. Her preparation and placement was on a different level than I was used to seeing, and her balls had a surprising amount of weight behind it. It wasn't a fast ball, but decent pace and she was hitting so close to the lines that the court seemed huge. I beat her but only because 1) she was rusty, and 2) she really didn't care at all. I saw her teaching once and she had those really nice "I learned with a wooden racket" type volleys where they hit every volley really flush and make it look so easy.
     
  40. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    This is true, but you're taking it to the opposite end of the crazy spectrum with your last two sentences:
    Tennis is a game of footwork. The average age of the top 10 is 22 for a reason. To suggest a 50 year old Mac could dominate a younger, quicker, and more coordinated version of himself, a version who played a LOT more than he does now (yeah, I know he plays WTT and some senior events, but that is nothing like a full ATP season) is crazy.
     
  41. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I don't think she could get a game from tonlars.
     
  42. ZPTennis

    ZPTennis Semi-Pro

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    The difference between wood racquets and old string technology versus new racquets and modern string technology is HUGE. Old racquets and strings cannot even come remotely close to producing the shots that are created today. Its an entirely different sport.

    Athleticism (speed, agility) would only go so far with younger MacEnroe versus older MacEnroe.


    The closest comparison I can come up with is if I play a pusher who was much faster and more agile than me and very consistent. Well guess what.... I destroy these types of players. The pusher has nothing to hurt me with because the shots simply don't have enough on them to bother me. When I am not bothered, then I am in control of the point because I am the one running him all over the place. It doesn't matter how consistent he is when the point leads to him being off the court in 5 shots or less and the next shot is an easy winner.

    The same would happen with young MacEnroe(wood racquet) vs old MacEnroe(modern tech). The spin and pace of old MacEnroe would bother young MacEnroe using his wood racquet. You simply do not have the control to overcome the faster shots and heavier spin from the modern day racquets with the wood racquet.

    This doesn't necessarily mean you miss the shot right away, but your not going to be able to do what you want with the ball. And that in turn leads you to losing control of the point and being put on the defensive. Point lost.
    Young MacEnroe(wood racquet) with his speed and agility still loses, because control of the point is lost.

    Someone might point out that serves with wood racquets can be almost as fast as modern day racquets. Poncho Gonzalez comes to mind, but with that we are talking about strictly velocity of a serve. When you add topspin to the mix, that is where everything changes. None of the old time big servers were able to create big kick serves with wood racquets. When you watch the old videos they were lucky to have any kick at all. And this is why groundstrokes are not comparable either. The topspin and pace just isn't there.
     
  43. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    ^ The wood rackets are being mentioned to emphasize a point, but when I'm talking about young Mac, he could use his old Dunlop 300g or a Babolat for all I care.

    But since we're talking about it, yeah, I give the edge to young Mac even if he's using his wood racket. I didn't see him shanking much with those things. Ask Borg who would win: 20 year old Borg with wooden Donnay or today's Borg with whatever racket he wants.

    He's probably nuts but Jimmy Arias insists he played better with wood. Then why didn't he stay with wood? No idea. And today's male players still go out of their way to play with rackets that would be considered too heavy and underpowered by recreational standards. Mac's Dunlop was designed to play, and look, like wood. Babolats are a very different kind of racket, but a lot of today's rackets aren't really that different from the original Pro Staff or Prestige, although Wilson and Head would have you believe they've reinvented the wheel every 12 months. I hit with a guy from these boards, and he bought some K Factor rackets and eventually abandoned them to go back to the old Pro Staffs.

    People are conflating a lot of different things here, though. The people who grew up playing with wood aren't going to lose as much going back to wood as would some of today's players who never touched a wooden racket in their lives. Think about Connors still beating guys playing with mid sized graphite rackets with his T-2000. Their mechanics are different, formed by wood, and even today, translates well to wood. They have more level swing paths, they don't pronate as much, and their strokes are more compact. So yes, it's a different game, but mostly due to younger guys who never played with wood implementing technique that never would have developed if they grew up playing with a 14-1/2 ounce wooden racket. This change doesn't really apply to Johnny Mac, or Evert Lloyd or Jose Higueros for that matter. Sure, some of their shots may have changed slightly due to newer rackets, but their strokes still betray their wood pedigree. They're not a completely different player today -- a completely modern player today -- because of their newer rackets.

    Yes, Mac has said he he hits harder now, but he was a way better player back in his early 20's. Tennis isn't just about hitting harder.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2009
  44. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    I so disagree with this. Sorry, sort of skimmed your post, didn't really notice this first time around.
     
  45. DownTheLine

    DownTheLine Hall of Fame

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  46. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    ^ In the first two seconds of that video they have his NTRP as 6.0. You couldn't even pay attention for 3 seconds?
     
  47. li0scc0

    li0scc0 Hall of Fame

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    Wow, not sure about that. Maybe at some REALLY BAD D1 schools.

    The D1 players around here would absolutely throttle the 4.0-4.5 men. I've hit with some of the D1 women, and their consistency and depth are ridiculous.
     
  48. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    ^ It's true. Some D-1 schools have some very weak players at the bottom. But the ones I saw, they usually always had a very good number 1 guy. There must be 500 or so D-1 schools in the country. Some of those tennis teams are bound to have some weak players.
     
  49. siata94

    siata94 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
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    late to this thread but...

    4.5 playa, would you like cream cheese with that?
     
  50. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    Good question. I think Arias might mean that he was a relatively better player, (by that I mean compared to other players using wood). If he was an absolutely better player using wood, then why wouldn't he still use wooden racquets?
     

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