How would you rank these Clay Courters from Best to Worst? -Federer......Rosewall

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by GasquetGOAT, Apr 6, 2010.

  1. GasquetGOAT

    GasquetGOAT Hall of Fame

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    Roger Federer
    Gaston Gaudio
    Juan Carlos Ferrero
    Albert Costa
    Andre Agassi
    Carlos Moya
    Yevgeny Kafelnikov
    Thomas Muster
    Andres Gomez
    Michael Chang
    Yannick Noah
    Guillermo Vilas
    Adriano Panatta
    Ilie Nastase
    Andres Gimeno
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2010
    #1
  2. GasquetGOAT

    GasquetGOAT Hall of Fame

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    I guess the obvious queston is, is there any reason(s) to rank anyone in the list ahead of Federer? Federer should be way ahead of that pack in terms of clay achievements.
     
    #2
  3. World Beater

    World Beater Hall of Fame

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    i dont know how ppl can compare gimeno and rosewall to federer. Just too difficult.

    The nostalgia clowns favorite way to compare is to take some historical account of a player and place it on a higher pedestal than actual live evidence of current or recent players.

    Favoring current players while ironically ignorant in some sense is certainly more logical than the converse.

    Usually the level in sports increases over time and i can see how players of the future will be more advanced and "better".

    But to glorify and immortalize the past based on historical accounts and little live evidence is just clearly comical.

    The benefit of the doubt should be given to the case where more evidence and better evidence is provided.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2010
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  4. GasquetGOAT

    GasquetGOAT Hall of Fame

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    I agree. The typical Laver vs Federer argument. Size of talent pool in 1960s vs 2010s? World population participating in sport, 1960s vs 2010s?
     
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  5. fed_rulz

    fed_rulz Hall of Fame

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    IMO, No. But don't be surprised to find some posters place at least 8/10 on that list ahead of federer when this thread is done
     
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  6. davey25

    davey25 Banned

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    LOL based on what? Winning only 1 Roland Garros, 0 Rome titles, and 0 Monte Carlo titles. Sorry I guess it is all those Hamburg and Estoril victories, the stuff clay court legends are made of.
     
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  7. sh@de

    sh@de Hall of Fame

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    Don't forget the one Madrid victory and the tonne of clay court finals he made... he was only stopped from getting a truckload of FO's because the greatest clay courter of all time was around.
     
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  8. fed_rulz

    fed_rulz Hall of Fame

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    GameSampras, we get it - The titles that Fed hasn't won are more important than the ones that he actually has won. The stuff clay court legends are made of (according to you) are precisely the titles (MC, Rome) that Fed hasn't won.
     
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  9. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    the Federer that gets schooled in clay by a criplled hip GUGA?... is that one that is so far ahead of the pack?
     
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  10. dropshot winner

    dropshot winner Hall of Fame

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    Guga was far from crippled. He had a lot of pain which only got worse over the next days/weeks, but that day he was on like in his good days.

    Nalbandian's hip was in similiar condition when he outplayed peak-Nadal in Indian Wells last year.

    As painful as it is, and as much as it can end a career, it's still possible to play brilliant matches on some days.

    Guga in one of his best ever years (2001) very nearly lost to Russel (who?) in RG. On MP he was lucky that one of his not so cleanly hit forehands landed on the line and not a inch further.

    It says a lot about Federer as a player that one of his worst ever losses since he reached the top was against a 3-time Roland Garros champion in Roland Garros.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2010
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  11. aphex

    aphex Banned

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    you mean the Guga who got schooled by Medvedev and 18-year-old Safin during his prime at the FO? lol
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2010
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  12. valiant

    valiant Hall of Fame

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    Tennis is about match ups. Some might have better resumes but lose to even a complete NOBODY.
     
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  13. Augustus

    Augustus Hall of Fame

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    All great players have losses to players they're supposed to beat (call them nobodies if you want), it doesn't really damage their legacy. Sampras lost to Bastl on grass, Federer lost to Ancic, Nadal lost to Soderling at RG, and the list goes on. No need to bring this up every time in order to diminish their achievements.
     
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  14. aphex

    aphex Banned

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    btw, rosewall should not be on this list:

    he's in the first tier along with borg and nadal

    all the other players you have there are 2nd or 3rd tier.
     
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  15. GasquetGOAT

    GasquetGOAT Hall of Fame

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    No, dropshot winner actual said, "It says a lot about Federer as a player that one of his worst ever losses since he reached the top was against a 3-time Roland Garros champion in Roland Garros".

    Don't see how anyone is agreeing with your dumb as Feces comparison between Fed and Guga, who is by the way not the player in discussion here. Read the first post again, need help reading comprehension?
     
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  16. valiant

    valiant Hall of Fame

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    Thats what I meant.
     
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  17. Gorecki

    Gorecki G.O.A.T.

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    actually no, i dont need. i find you Leaving GUGA out of the question quite enlightening about how much you yourself believe Fed is a Clay Great...

    thanks for making my point once more...


    ps: i still enjoy your threads. very comical most of them!
     
    #17
  18. GasquetGOAT

    GasquetGOAT Hall of Fame

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    I agree Rosewall shouldn't be in here, he just happened to be the first official "Open Era" French Open winner. But yes it further complicates things, I will removed him from the list.
     
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  19. GasquetGOAT

    GasquetGOAT Hall of Fame

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    by repeating "thanks for making my point once more.." does not make your point any clearer to other posters. lol what IS your point in this thread again?

    Oh by the way, in case you didn't get it the first time - we are NOT discussing GUGA in this thread. LOOK at post number 1.;)
     
    #19
  20. Gen

    Gen Banned

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    So kind of you to omit 3 best clay courters from your list:

    Borg (6 clay slams + 9 clay master-equivalents)
    Nadal (4 clay slams + 10 clay masters + the longest win streak on one surface in the history of tennis - 81 matches)
    Kuerten (3 clay slams + ...)

    Their title collection is so terribly inferior to Feddy's with his meagre 1 slam (won when Rafa was out of competition) and his great clay rivalry with Nadal 9:2 (guess who leads).
     
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  21. Augustus

    Augustus Hall of Fame

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    That's exactly the reason why he excluded them, he wanted to rank the 'second-tier' clay-court greats.
     
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  22. dropshot winner

    dropshot winner Hall of Fame

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    I don't know what kind of comparisions he has made, I have lost count of all the dumb posts on TT anyway.
     
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  23. GasquetGOAT

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    You don't think maybe I meant to omit these 3 guys from the discussion?

    Why stop there, why not throw in Jim Courier, Ivan Lendl and Mats Wilander as well?
     
    #23
  24. GasquetGOAT

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    Is it really so hard? Please see below.

    Thank you. Glad to see one good post after all the dumb posts in this thread.
     
    #24
  25. davey25

    davey25 Banned

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    Yes I have heard that excuse for the 1000th time only already. If one says "if Nadal wasnt there" I could say what if the overall clay court field wasnt such a joke during much of Federer's success there.

    There are many clay courters on that list who have achieved more than 1 French Open title and 1 Madrid title.
     
    #25
  26. davey25

    davey25 Banned

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    The most prestigious and important clay court event is the French Open, followed by Rome and Monte Carlo. What is so shocking about that news? That is the way it has been for decades.
     
    #26
  27. GasquetGOAT

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    Seriously, what's wrong with all these not-so-b****t posters jumping to the conclusion that this is another Fedlovefest thread as soon as they see "Federer" in the title?!:|

    Is it so hard to rank the 'second-tier' clay-court greats?
     
    #27
  28. Gen

    Gen Banned

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    What's your comparison basis then? To omit every clay courter better than Fed and declare him a clay god? What are you trying to discuss?
     
    #28
  29. GasquetGOAT

    GasquetGOAT Hall of Fame

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    Really? is that all Federer has done on clay? oh my...
     
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  30. GasquetGOAT

    GasquetGOAT Hall of Fame

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    *facepalm*.........


    See post number 28.
     
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  31. davey25

    davey25 Banned

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    those are the biggest things he has achieved on clay yes. So his biggest claim to greatness on clay is winning Hamburg and Estoril alot.
     
    #31
  32. GasquetGOAT

    GasquetGOAT Hall of Fame

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    What makes you think Madrid is a better achievement than Hamburg? Enlighten me.
     
    #32
  33. Gen

    Gen Banned

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    You should have omitted Vilas from this list of one-clay-slam wonders. He won 2 clay slams (USO was played on clay in 1977).
     
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  34. dropshot winner

    dropshot winner Hall of Fame

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    How dare he not bow to Nadal's greatness in this thread!!
     
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  35. GasquetGOAT

    GasquetGOAT Hall of Fame

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    That's a good point. And as he also has 3 runner-ups at the French Open which would put him one more clay slam ahead of Federer.
     
    #35
  36. Li Ching Yuen

    Li Ching Yuen Legend

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    Comparing current players with ones that played over 40 years ago is very intelligent and ground-breaking.
     
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  37. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Ranking these guys as far as clay court prowess is very tough. They are all one-time French Open Champions. Keep in mind that if we give Federer "extra credit" for losing to an all-time great such as Nadal, a guy like Vilas should get some benefit for having to face Borg during Borg's reign. Vilas dropped 2 finals at the FO to Borg and 1 more to Wilander in 1982 (3 FO finals, 1 FO title).

    Now, Agassi, also has 2 FO finals he lost, but he lost to Gomez and Courier (also really good clay courters, but not at Nadal's level).

    Since all these guys have 1 FO title, I've listed total number of total clay court titles as a preliminary "tiebreaker". Looking at the list of players, ranked by total number of clay court titles, I'd put Federer at about 5 on the list, after giving him some extra credit since he plays in Nadal's era. He is still pretty far behind a few of the other guys in terms of total clay court titles.

    These guys at the top should get credit for winning many clay court titles, besides just the 1 FO title. So, I wouldn't rank them behind Federer just because they played in "earlier years". Will a 1 time FO champion in say 10 years NECESSARILY be better than Federer because of "natural evolution" of the Sport? I wouldn't think so. On a given day, Federer is quite dangerous on clay, but his results are not better than many great clay courters.

    It depends on what you want to emphasize. Just like any comparison between players of different eras, this is a subjective and objective analysis. If a Federer fan wants to place Federer at the top of the list, he/she needs to give some reason as to why.

    Just because he is a "current" player is not enough in my opinion. Will players 10 years from now "automatically" be better than the guys at the top today? Not necessarily, in my opinion, but there will likely be changes to how the Game is being played at the highest level, driven by changing techniques, playing style, technology, and the sheer competition among the top guys.

    Here's my list with just these players involved. Let's remember that guys like Courier and Bruguera have 2 FO titles and are not on this list at all.

    1. Guillermo Vilas - 46
    2. Thomas Muster - 40
    3. Ilie Nastase - 28
    4. Carlos Moya - 16
    5. Roger Federer - 9
    6. Andres Gomez - 16
    7. Albert Costa - 13
    8. Yannick Noah - 12
    9. Juan Carlos Ferrero - 11
    10. Adriano Panatta - 8
    11. Gaston Gaudio - 8
    12. Andre Agassi - 7
    13. Michael Chang - 5
    14. Yevgeny Kafelnikov - 4
    15. Andres Gimeno - 3
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2010
    #37
  38. GasquetGOAT

    GasquetGOAT Hall of Fame

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    Well if I dont know include all the "past greats" in the list it would insult many posters here on TTW, I'm not taking that risk.
     
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  39. Rhino

    Rhino Legend

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    Well if Nadal is supposed to be the greatest clay courter of all time, and Federer is the only man to win the French Open with Nadal in the draw, then I guess Federer must be the best on that list.

    That's my logic and I'm sticking to it.
     
    #39
  40. GasquetGOAT

    GasquetGOAT Hall of Fame

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    All good points. I agree Vilas should be the most accomplished here other than for the reason of most clay titles won, like Gen mentioned he also won the US Open on clay in 77, beating Connors in the final, so that would definitely put him ahead of Federer.
     
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  41. Li Ching Yuen

    Li Ching Yuen Legend

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    Do it next time.
    If they have a problem with that, they can go right ahead and f themselves.

    There's a separate section on this board for dinosaur talk.
     
    #41
  42. GasquetGOAT

    GasquetGOAT Hall of Fame

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    haha, if in that case, (IMO) 1989 would be a good "cut off" year to discuss all the 1 FO winners, as it's the beginning of the "Sampras....Chang" pack.
     
    #42
  43. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    The thread was Rank These Clay Courters. If you read the list it was obvious he wanted to discuss the middle tier. WHO THE HELL NEEDS TO FOR ANOTHER TIME GO okay Borg is the best, Nadal is second and Kuerten, Lendl and Wilander battle it out for 3. With Rosewall placed in there depending on how supportive a certain person is on pre open era tennis.Oh and I agree with borgnumber1's list it is spot on.
     
    #43
  44. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah, I do not know how Courier & Bruguera could be left off of the OP's list, if the discussion is to be taken seriously.
     
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  45. GasquetGOAT

    GasquetGOAT Hall of Fame

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    Hint, how many French Opens does Courier have?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2010
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  46. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    How many does Federer have?
     
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  47. GasquetGOAT

    GasquetGOAT Hall of Fame

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    same as the rest in the list. Do you still not get it? oh my....
     
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  48. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    You have Vilas, why not Borg? No Guga but 6 different players from the 90s?
    You list consists of all players in the open era except one player - Andres Gimeno. I'm sure the senior citizens from the "Former Player Talk" forum would have alot to say about your list. Haha.
     
    #48
  49. Augustus

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    The OP wants to rank the players that won one French Open, is that so difficult to understand?
     
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  50. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Oh I see. The op should be more clear in his initial post b/c it raised the question right away when many other greats are left out.:)
     
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