http://www.fawcette.net/2011/02/milos-raonics-serve-close-up-in-video.html

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by kiteboard, Feb 25, 2011.

  1. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    similarities between Sampras and Raonic's serve motion: J toss is the same. Deweight the front foot same. Chest facing the back fence. Hip dip, with his weight coming forward, forcing the leading hip far higher than the rear hip same. High elbow on drop same. Vicious pronation of forearm same.

    http://www.fawcette.net/2011/02/milos-raonics-serve-close-up-in-video.html
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2011
    #1
  2. BobFL

    BobFL Hall of Fame

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    Thanks but this video has been discussed. Btw, the title of this thread is the whole link?
     
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  3. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Have seen a lot of odd thread titles in these forums but this one takes the cake. Intentional?
     
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  4. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Yes. Easy to pick it out when you want to look at it.
     
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  5. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    I don't agree that he uses an eastern backhand grip. Looks like continental, but he turns his wrist in the ready position.
     
    #5
  6. Tennis Dunce

    Tennis Dunce Semi-Pro

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    I think its important to note just how sideways Raonic remains on that twist serve.
     
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  7. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Let's agree to disagree....but grip might be between a regular conti and slightly twisted towards ebh.
     
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  8. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    It's a full continental. Does no one else see that he copied Sampras' serve?
     
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  9. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Please don't post video of RajeevRam's serve.
     
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  10. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    He has talked of how Pete was his model for serving.

    We did the same thing as my son was coming up thru the Jrs, and modeled the Sampras serve. He went on to have one of the biggest serves in the country and won many fast serve contests along with quite a tally of aces.
     
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  11. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    The similarities are obvious, and nec. for anyone who wants a pro serve: Start with the wt all the way back, knee bend into a scrunched up rear lower back, with toss arm stretching out the arm pit, j toss from the core, to 12 oclock/11 or so for more angle and pressure avail., drive up hard, shoulder over shoulder and hip over hip: the leading hip is higher than the rear hip, and they exchange pos. rapidly, high elbow, leading to a quickly pronated forearm, and very fast follow through.
     
    #11
  12. only4theweak187

    only4theweak187 Banned

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    the doubles player last name ram not sure his first name has copied pete's serve exactly to the T.

    last night tennis channel played a doubles match live from the delray beach tournament and this guy has it down perfect, the motion i mean, not the amazing serve...but his serve placement is very good
     
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  13. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Excellent vid, thanks for sharing.

    Really shows the part I've been touting for about a decade as the key to going over 130mph and up;
    where it depicts how deep his racket drop goes as his legs are driving up towards contact, resulting or giving a delayed elbow extension. Most avg servers hitting 120 and under are already starting to extend the elbow and moving the hand towards contact at that point where his hand is still getting more racket drop.

    I do think he still needs a few degrees more tilt into the court on his launch upwards to get his max mph.
     
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  14. chico9166

    chico9166 Guest

    Yeah, I agree with this. People have a hard time understanding the relationship between the center of mass/body rising as the arm/racquet are going the other way. (down) It's almost counterintuitive.(sp?) But it goes a long way in loading the shoulder and finding adequate "length" in the backswing.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 27, 2011
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  15. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    That's the nail on the head. How is he hitting such high mph without a full tilt? I know he has a high elbow, and is 6'5", but I think it's the dipsy doodle hip action, with that stock K blade 98. Loose string tens. adds mph at 42/44. But it still does not explain it. He also kicks his leg back hard and high, which exaggerates the hip rotation.

    http://www.fawcette.net/2011/02/milos-raonics-serve-close-up-in-video.html
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
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  16. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    He's not that far off really and IMO it just speaks more to how high he can go. Maybe the deepest racket drop I've seen.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
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  17. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree.
    Tried to get Tennisone to work with me on an article about this about 9 yrs ago when JY was still there, but they said they just didn't get it and how it was any more important than any other serve mechanic. I tried to explain that Agassi and other 115 range servers were doing all the other stuff about 99% the same, but this was the "difference Maker" in the technique that enabled them to take an excellent base platform that most pro servers had in common and boost up the octane to take the serve up to 130-140 range. I could even show how Agassi started his elbow later and from lower than his norm, when he busted out a hand full of 129s he hit in one US open.

    It seems that tennisplayer, JY's current site, is making some progress in this direction with some of the current work, but a shame we could have had this out there 10 yrs earlier.
     
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  18. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    and I agree the hip drive can be important.
     
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  19. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    I know jy. I've met him a few times. He has published a few of my articles. He is doing a lot of analysis on the Sampras serve, but so far has not really mentioned this. Fed, Becker, Samrpras, Raonic, all delay their drop and get more whip action due to it, but it's a little hard to learn. I lost a match to a guy I normally beat up on due to trying to learn it. Double faulted 4x in one game and that was that for my confidence. Sucks losing to a pusher.
     
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  20. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    http://www.youtube.com/onehandbh#p/a/u/2/bfFv9ACCdT8

    This a clip of my 2nd serve, but overall, what things would you recommend
    that I change to increase serve speed? Should I delay the racquet
    drop somehow? My motion is just what feels natural to me so, any change
    would take some time and some conscious doing.
    Kiteboard? anyone else?
     
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  21. chico9166

    chico9166 Guest

    Yeah 52, I'm pretty sure I understand your premise, and agree in large part. However, I don't think we can discount the overall God given talent/athleticism as a factor. (and i don't think you necessarily are)

    One would be hard pressed to quantify or identify the why's and how's of Nolan Ryan's pitching prowess, for example. There are a hell of a lot of pitchers out there with perfect mechanics, who couldn't throw in the mid 90's for 30 years like Ryan. Some things are unexplainable/quantifiable.

    Sampras's serve is the model/pinnacle by which all serves are compared. And while I agree, that using parts of his positions/motions are valuable as a learning tool, there really is only one Pete.

    But yeah, learning to move up, while the arm is simultaneously being rotated back/externally, is a key in allowing each individual to achieve as much drop as they can muster athletically.
     
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  22. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I'd like to start by saying you are doing several things very well, but to try to help, the comments will be mainly on where you can improve.

    The thing that jumps out at me is how the leg drive runs out too early. It's almost as if you jump up, pause, then swing for the serve; and to compensate, you have to fire the elbow prematurely to get the racket moving before you lose all the leg drive. It's a little tough to describe, but the leg drive needs to start in a way where it aids in the drop being even lower relative to the torso, causing a slight bounce off the bottom of the drop as the upward torso drive abruptly drive the elbow up (but not extended). Then there needs to be a segment where the racket is drug butt first towards contact. I call this the launch portion. Everything is moving up streamlined towards contact and the elbow is just about to fire and start extension at the end of a strong rocking motion. This shoulder rock should be happening during the leg drive opposed to after. When you should be in this launch position, your elbow is already well into it's extension and your drive as petered out, forcing you to arm it from there.

    The other thing that fits into this is also the shoulder rock. By keeping the tossing arm high for longer, it helps to exaggerate the shoulder tilt. Then when the elbow starts coming up it is driven by the tossing elbow driving down hard, helping to drive the right shoulder and elbow up. Your tossing arm is not very active in aiding the rocking motion.

    Hope this helps.
    I was in hurry and it show here I'm sure, but these two items can help greatly along with a more stable platform with your feet. ( lot of foot shuffling going on there)
    Please ask where I have not been clear enough.
    cheers,
     
    #22
  23. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    I'm a little confused. Do you mean that at the point the leg drive starts,
    the shoulder should already be in it's vertical tilt position? (high left shoulder,
    low right shoulder)

    So, use the tossing arm more to help facilitate the shoulder tilt?
     
    #23
  24. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Weight does not go all the way back to the back foot, nor is the motion dynamic enough. NO whip on delayed drop.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
    #24
  25. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    The weight should go all the way (completely) to the back foot?
     
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  26. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, and you are doing that currently. I look at where your vid ticks from 3 over to 4 sec mark and you look near perfect. Really sharp, good knee bend, and high tossing hand with super alignment up to the contact point.
    But like kiteboard says, not dynamic enough. You really look like you are going to drive down with that tossing arm, but then it sort of dies out; your leg drive/leap does the same, it starts looking strong, then falls off (evidenced IMO partly by the knee bend right after launch) .
    You can see here how Andy drives up seamlessly into contact, with everything clearly so connected and nothing seeming to die out enroute.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZbxKuLEP_o

    I think most of this is due to you hitting a second serve though. The more I watched your vid, the better I liked it. The points I'm making are very subtle and as i said from the start, you are doing a lot of it very well. I think when you go after a first serve, all this becomes more dynamic and you pull down further with the tossing arm and get a more full launch with the legs extended and straight. You may even delay that elbow extension that extra instant to gain that extra racket drop and subsequent head speed to contact.
    you agree?
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
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  27. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, hard pressed to do it, but over time we get more and more of it.
    Sure there are different potentials for players, but for good players, I'm convinced that it's usually only a small % difference, but the big difference is in technique. Maybe one pro server can hit 155+ due to mechanics and another can only hit 135. Both are getting well beyond what is needed to be successful in this game. IMO we learn this everyday; that being dedicated with good training form and having a great belief system is far more important than supposed potential. I've seen it time and time again where some supposed, very avg athlete locks in a few critical technical items, and then all the sudden he is the model with all the potential that few can supposedly aspire to exhibit.

    Like with the first guy to run a 4 min mile. Once others saw it could be done, it has become quite common (for mile runners at least). Just like that small pro pitcher who throws over a hundred and doesn't have to ice his arm because his dad worked out what many believe to be superior mechanics.

    Also you have the example like with Agassi and maybe even onehandbh, you can see where Andre would get more racket drop and delayed elbow extension on serves where he went for more mph while keeping the rest largely unchanged.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
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  28. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Wow. Great video for explaining exactly what you are saying! It's the whip he is missing, that Andy is not. The truth is, if he listens to you, and works it out, he will have a great serve. Sometimes people on this board surprise me with how much they can help others. Btw, I use the blue gear ultra/hexablade on my h22s. Very good control.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
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  29. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I appreciate that you can see what I'm seeking to share on this. Maybe to some extent it also shows how, while "hard pressed to explain", we can get insights into what techniques and mechanics lead to some of the great feats we get to enjoy.

    Drak did a nice job on the vid didn't he.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
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  30. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Anyone who could teach his kid Sampras' serve, and have it work, knows what he is doing and you should get more credit. Thanks for the help you are giving others. Andy, watch those foot faults!
     
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  31. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    By the way-
    Watched some more of Raonic's serves and noticed he gets better tilt a lot of the time.
     
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  32. chico9166

    chico9166 Guest

    Well, nobody has been taught Sampras's serve here. But let's just get specific. How and what needs to be done, to achieve the key positions Sampras finds. And can we assume the OP can athletically accomplish this? I'll be interested in your specific instructions, because I'm quite sure the OP is finding really, really, good positions. This is a nice motion.
     
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  33. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    The OP deals with Raonic's serve, which is quite similar to Sampras' serve. Are you referring to onehandbh's serve vid?
     
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  34. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    I guess he didn't read this post or is ignoring it totally. If you have ever tried to teach someone to serve, good luck at it.
     
    #34
  35. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Thanks for you nice comments. I think the single most important key in our success was to focus on the basic slice second serve from 11 to 13 yrs of age. This took any need to develop power/mph, and allowed all energy to be directed towards getting it right vs getting speed. Once we started getting it right, the speed just started to roll... and roll... and roll.
    It was something to witness.
     
    #35
  36. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    That makes sense. The leg drive up will provide an additional force to
    cause a deeper drop (provided the upper body is relaxed enough).
    Not sure how much deeper my drop can get but I can get more
    "bounce" at the bottom to provide more speed probably. I'll record
    another video a little later when I have time.
     
    #36
  37. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Something to remember on this-
    Your drop is pretty darn good, but
    Every instant you are getting a deeper drop when done properly,
    is an instant the racket has not started up to contact yet.
    This delay can be important, as long as it does not become excessive,
    as when the racket head covers more distance in less time,
    that of course equals greater speed, right.

    The aspect of dragging the hand and dragging the racket butt first
    works the same way. If the racket head is still lagging back and not
    fired forward yet, then it has further to go to reach contact on time.
    This also equal greater racket head speed.
    As long as you can manage the acceleration, it works for you.
    Make sense?
     
    #37
  38. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Don't forget to dynamically yank the toss arm down and tuck the leading shoulder, while delaying the drop off leg drive. The players' head height, goes back, down and then upwards and forwards.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2011
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  39. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    By dragging, do you mean from the initial part of the motion or throughout?
    or only at the point the legs start driving up?

    Would you say the timing/delay on Sampras' motion is optimal? The timing
    of his motion is not easy to copy, though.
    Not sure if I can duplicate/copy his timing, but I can try. Will have to
    change my toss, etc. so it won't be easy. I think I'll probably have to toss
    slightly higher. I do like his motion.

    What do you think of Benjamin Becker's motion? He's shorter than me but
    has a hard serve -- though not as much variety and spin and variety as
    Sampras or Raonic.

    I'll keep that in mind as well.
     
    #39
  40. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    When I teach this, we work on things that will cause things to happen to gain the feel for doing it, cause most players don't learn by knowing it intellectually, but know it by how it feels.
    The biggest aid for this one for me is the common idea of throwing the racket; high and far. Generally a player will load up and sequence quite well when faced with the gross movement of launching the racket high and far. They will intuitively understand that to get that racket to really fly ( i use a warped old wood one).
    Honestly I don't really think so much about the exact sequence, but can see it when it's off or linked up real well.
    I can look at the sequence more for you soon.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2011
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  41. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I would like to see yet another Rampras serve video
     
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  42. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    He was on tennis channel, and won a doubles tourny.
     
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  43. chico9166

    chico9166 Guest

    Don't see the similarities between Raonic and Sampras. His serve is eerily similar to Fed's though. Including:

    1.Similar down together, up together windup.(Sampras uses a staggered start)

    2.By pro standards, both have moderate/average turns off the ball (what, 120 degrees of hip and torso turn?) Sampras turns an additional 30-40 degrees. Significant difference. Pete's combination of coil (horizontal) and sink/knee bend (vertical) load, has really never been duplicated. Certainly not by Raonic.

    3.Fed's and Raonic have roughly the same degree of tilt in the "archer's bow.(again, pretty average by pro standards) Pete is much steeper.

    4.Raonic may achieve a little more depth than Fed in the drop, but nowhere near Pete in his prime. Very few have rotated the arm back in the shoulder joint as well as Sampras.

    5.Both have perfect upright posture and significant kick back on the landing. Pete, not so much, on either account.

    .Similar thick, wavy, hair. Most of Pete's hair is on his chest.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2011
    #43
  44. JimF

    JimF Rookie

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    Raonic uses a "Simplified Sampras" serve

    Yes, Raonic says he copied Sampras.

    But his motion is actually simpler, with fewer moving parts than Pete. Sort of Sampras deconstructed.

    Pete turns his back to the net; Raonic has little turn, body torque or associated "hip push". (Is there a better term for that?)

    But the pronation, and racquet head speed Raonic gets on a twist serve is ridiculous:
    [​IMG][/url]
    Raonic_Tues_SAP_Tennis11 488 by james.fawcette, on Flickr[/IMG]


    One note: Yes, Raonic is 6 ft 5 in, but he has limbs -- arms and legs -- of a 7 footer. Verdasco said Raonic has "7 ft legs with a 12 year old body on top" :) Maybe because he lost to him twice.

    P.S. Glad people enjoyed my video! :)

    http://www.fawcette.net/2011/02/milos-raonics-serve-close-up-in-video.html
     
    #44

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