Hyphothetical GOAT Q ( no fed or nadal worship)

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by sonicare, Jan 15, 2010.

  1. sonicare

    sonicare Hall of Fame

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    Something I have been thinking about lately everytime I read a GOAT thread on here.

    Imagine this:

    A player comes out of no where and for 1 calender year wins everything. Doesnt drop a set or a game. Bagels everyone. Winning a point against this guy is a struggle. Doesnt make an unforced error throughout the year. Hits 3-4 winners per game. 100% first serves for the whole year. you get the idea.

    Now, the above player that I have described is a tennis superman. LOL.

    Now, Imagine, he dies in a car crash. He would end up with 4 majors, 9 Masters and few other tournaments. Would go like 100-0 for the whole year.

    IS HE YOUR GOAT?

    If not, please elaborate why.

    For me, he is because he reached a level of tennis that has never been reached before and played at that level for a year.

    Looking forward to some interesting replies.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2012
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  2. himynameisNIKE

    himynameisNIKE Professional

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    nonesense, superman would never die in a car crash
     
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  3. sonicare

    sonicare Hall of Fame

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    DAMN, I shuda seen that one coming. haha.
     
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  4. viduka0101

    viduka0101 Hall of Fame

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    you didn't have to exaggerate to make you're point
    but anyway do you have a specific person in mind?
     
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  5. sonicare

    sonicare Hall of Fame

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    No I dont actually. But in my mind, there is a disconnect between accomplishments and GOAT. For all the armchair psychologists, My fav player is FED so i am in no way trying to discredit his accomplistments.

    I am finding it hard to verbalise my point which is why I came up with the extreme example. Maybe someone else can chime in.
     
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  6. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    He'd be the GOAT, especially if he singlehandedly won the Davis Cup for his country (or whatever planet he is from).

    He would appeal to the science fiction crowd, well beyond tennis.

    Of course, tennis purists would find ways to laud Federer, Pete, Laver, et al for their longevity. We would distunguish between a career GOAT and a single season GOAT (GSSOAT).

    Then there would be a thread about the greatest one-day tennis performance of all time - three golden sets in singles and two in dubs ... that sort of thing.
     
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  7. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    People would say he was on steroids.
     
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  8. bruce38

    bruce38 Banned

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    Yes that hypothetical player would be GOAT.
     
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  9. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Yes. If you emphasize peak performance (ex. Laver's 2 Grand Slams or Borg/Federer at their "peaks") more than career longevity, cumulative accomplishment (ex. Connors winning the most titles over so many years), such a "hypo" player would have a strong argument on his side.

    Such a debate would be necessarily hypothetical, and necessarily considers both objective and subjective criterion. It depends a subjective analysis as to how one should define the "greatest". It's like a "weighing" of factors when trying to make an analysis.
     
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  10. Camilio Pascual

    Camilio Pascual Hall of Fame

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    In a sense, yes.
    I'll give you the closest thing to a real life case.
    Anybody who is interested, look up the career of Mo Connolly.
    The physical severity of her injury ended her career beyond all hopes of coming back.
    I don't actually argue she is the GOAT, because she did not win nearly as many titles or tournaments as others.
    But, yes, I regard her as the BEST women's player of all time.
     
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  11. CMM

    CMM Legend

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    I second this.
     
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  12. JennyS

    JennyS Hall of Fame

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    It's clear that this guy was a Cylon and his consciousness would just transfer to another body and he'd be back the next year:p

    Seriously, he'd be considered to have had the Greatest Season of all time, but not the GOAT.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2010
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  13. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    Great call. 1958, right? Wow.

    I thought for a second you were going to say Monica Seles, who did shine very brightly for a short time ... cut shorter by the stabbing. So wrong. But she was not good on grass, and that's clearly a prerequisite for greatness, and if not greatness, GOATness.
     
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  14. Agassifan

    Agassifan Hall of Fame

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    Unless he beats Nadal in all four Majors, he won't be GOAT.
     
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  15. bruce38

    bruce38 Banned

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    And it's his fault if Nadal loses in earlier rounds and doesn't make it to the slam final.
     
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  16. Danstevens

    Danstevens Semi-Pro

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    You forgot to add HEALTHY Nadal - he can't be tired or injured :wink:

    I'm not so sure they'd be the greatest player of all time by my definitions. For example, McEnroe played an absolutely astounding season in 1984 - it wasn't quite as perfect as the season you describe but I don't think anyone has had a better win percentage (it's even less likely if we confine this to the open era). According to Wikipedia, he went 82-3 (96.5% matches won) for the season and won 13 singles titles. He still isn't the greatest player of all time in the opinions of most (if not all) people. He played what was probably the greatest season ever but you have to be great for more than a year. McEnroe was but he wasn't quite great enough before or after 1984 to earn a place high up in the GOAT list.

    If you super player was to tragically be killed or have his tennis career ended in some kind of freak accident, I think we would have to say that if his career had been longer, he would probably have been GOAT but as he wouldn't have achieved as much as some other players (through no fault of his own), I still don't believe we can call him GOAT. Like McEnroe after his 1984 season, your super player could have fallen to pieces but we would never know. So therefore I can conclude with my opinion that he would have probably been GOAT but because he wasn't around for long enough, we will never know for sure.

    EDIT: By the way, this is a very good question that you have asked of the TT community and that makes a change for the Pro Player discussion forums.
     
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  17. stapler

    stapler Professional

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    I would not consider him the GOAT. I don't find that you can accurately judge a player as GOAT on the basis of a small period of play (no matter how good it is).
     
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  18. sonicare

    sonicare Hall of Fame

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    Hey man, Point noted.

    BUT, I am talking about a superhuman player who doesnt lose a single game throughout a year.

    I think there is a point/threshold where the balance tips in the persons favour. It might be different for different people and this is why i feel a disconnect between overall accomplishments and level of play for a certain length of time which is why i picked a full calender year.
     
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  19. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

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    What's the point of this thread? Assume player is superhuman. Then debate if he would Greatest or not? What's the point? If he's superhuman obviously he's greater than any human can ever be.
     
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  20. sonicare

    sonicare Hall of Fame

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    Not even if the player:

    - wins every tournament he enters
    - doesn't lose a set
    - doesn't drop a game
    - 100% first serves
    - 3-4 winners per game
    - ZERO unforced errors throughout the entire year
    - makes impossible shots over and over again
    - players struggle to win a point against him, let alone a game.
     
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  21. Ledigs

    Ledigs Hall of Fame

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    It's because he's playing against a VERY weak field. :)
     
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  22. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    This is a stupid hypothetical and is impossible. NO UNFORCED ERRORS IN THE YEAR. Sorry nobody can do that. When was the last time someone went a match without it...and 100 percent first serves. I am sorry come back with a more realistic situation. How about just having a perfect season and winning every single tournament..what was his career like before this year? You said he came out of nowhere..Its like saying if James Blake went 100-0 in 2011..I would not consider James Blake GOAT even if he won all 4 slams and then 9 masters even if he did sadly die in 2012 of a tragic accident, but there were all those years before that. If it was some 18 year old kids first season it would be hard to place..its an interesting scenario but a highly unlikely one which I hope we never have to deal with.
     
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  23. Camilio Pascual

    Camilio Pascual Hall of Fame

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    The difference between her case and Mo's was that the physical injury from the stabbing was very minor, I had a similar one when I was stabbed in the back with a fork.
    Monica should be given credit for coming back from the very understandable psychological trauma to win another Major, I think she was in 3 Majors finals after the stabbing. I'm not convinced she would have won so many more Majors had she not been stabbed. There were already rumblings about her diverting time to become a celebrity herself that remind me of Serena's careers. She seemed to think she had a modeling career in the wings.
    I see nothing other than her physical injury that would have stopped Mo from winning a dozen or more Majors. It would have been great to see her against a young Margaret Court at Oz.
     
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  24. AM95

    AM95 Hall of Fame

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    How many times does he beat Nadal?

    How many times does he beat Federer?
    :twisted:
     
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  25. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near Talk Tennis Guru

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    Relax folks, ...
    He would absolutely and undisputedly be the best tennis player ever and would he not die in a car crash or suffer from a career ending injury would have almost certainly become the greatest in terms of accomplishments by a ridiculous margin with something like 40 plus slams and wiping clean pretty much every top record that exists in tennis.

    The man would go down as the most brilliant athlete and sports person in history and if anybody with such stupendous and incredulous talent were ever to be born then they would probably end up migrating to another sport or 2 and excelling there as well - though to a lesser degree than in tennis which I assume would be the guys number 1 talent.

    It might be almost impossible for such a talent to exist, or maybe it could be a 1 in every 25000 years or 800 billion born (or whatever) sportsman.
     
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  26. Gugafan

    Gugafan Hall of Fame

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    Candidate for worst thread of the year already.
     
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  27. sh@de

    sh@de Hall of Fame

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    YES!! Best answer! :)
     
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  28. Camilio Pascual

    Camilio Pascual Hall of Fame

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    Not really.
    Your post has led it to greatness!
     
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  29. sonicare

    sonicare Hall of Fame

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    Bump with 10 goats
     
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  30. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    If such a season ever happened, I'd say he's GOAT.
     
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  31. OKUSA

    OKUSA Hall of Fame

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    Depends on who was driving his car
     
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  32. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

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    he would be the most talented player ever (probably) and yeah he would probably be the greatest ever seen.
     
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  33. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Well if Nadal is driving, he is sure to arrive at the destination safely.
     
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  34. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    There have been some argument that some players like Lew Hoad or Ellsworth Vines played the best tennis ever at their best and while their careers can't match many of the greats in accomplishment they often have been called the greatest of all time because of their level of play.

    If there was a magical player who was that good you would have to say for average level of play that this person would be the best ever. Is he the GOAT, for average level he would be.

    Sounds like Steve Nebraska in the movie "The Scout" played by Brendan Fraser.

    http://www.matttrailer.com/the_scout_1994
     
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  35. kishnabe

    kishnabe G.O.A.T.

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    Uhmmm....Unless he win Olympic Gold and DC with all those titles he is GOAT. If he wins WTF as well....they take away his GOAT status.
     
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