I beat the guy 60 60 and he called me "a pusher!"

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Gonzalito17, Nov 17, 2012.

  1. Borrelli

    Borrelli Semi-Pro

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    Pretty much everything about "pushers" has been summed up in this thread but the one thing I would add is that developing a really good drop shot is key to beating pushers. As someone else said, draw them into the net and then fire a few at them or lob them as they do to you. You really do have to finish a good amount of points off at the net or you'll be playing all day long.

    There's a guy who I play occasionally who is a really good pusher. He ends up beating a lot of guys who are better then him just by using typical pusher techniques. He only plays local guys, mostly undeveloped players so he thinks he's great. He gets really mad if you tell him he's a pusher and says how he beats everyone so how could he be that bad? I mean this guy must shank 40% of his shots but they all end up over the net. I need to videotape this guy because he's really gotten fantastic at pushing. Personally, I just don't enjoy or have fun playing guys like that so I don't. I actually think it might be worse for my game since I'm slowing down my reflexes so much that when I hit with someone good I'm late on the ball.
     
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  2. tennisoh

    tennisoh Semi-Pro

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    So you wanted to kill him, but then you push and play your B or C level game? That makes no sense. Then again, this whole story describes not one, but two players I hope I never have to play against. This whole tennis outing sounded like a terrible time.
     
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  3. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    I doubt I get even 1 in 20 shanks or a dismal <5%. Man, if I were as good as THAT pusher! :-?
     
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  4. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    Borelli you need to be able to handle a pusher an their offspeeds, it will make you a more complete player. You must be able to handle anything thrown at you, not just good pace. Agree the drop shot is an important play. But to beat pushers I believe you have to be able to push also, you need to have this aspect in your arsenal. It's a great feeling to have the confidence that you can play 50-75 shots. Beat the pusher at his own game. If you can do that you are a more complete player. Of course you need to be able to mix it up and hit winners and targets, that's always nice but the key to tennis is variety and being able to mix it up, controlling the ball. One dimensional tennis is in most cases going to fail to beat a pusher. Unless you are like a pro and can fire winners all over the place. One dimensional player should work on their pushing game, it will make them more complete players. It will not be a step backwards. You need to have many weapons in your arsenal.
     
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  5. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    tennisoh, my B and C games can kill just about all 4.0 players. I can play great defense and never miss while also mixing it up. Also have excellent quickness and anticipation. I started off as a pusher but now I can win USTA tournaments and play even with Div 1 college players male or female. I just beat a former Lynn U player in two 21 games this week. I can beat teaching pros 6-0. My game is tough )People see it and think they can beat but then they end up getting killed. : 0
     
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  6. IA-SteveB

    IA-SteveB Professional

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    I commend you for being so humble. A lot of people around here have big heads.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2012
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  7. SStrikerR

    SStrikerR Hall of Fame

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    I have a similar situation to you I can share actually. I'm a high school player, and at my local courts there are some older guys who aren't bad, but aren't that good either. If I were to play them in sets, I wouldn't waste my energy going for harder shots. Maybe I'd serve and volley some for giggles, but in general I'd hit rally balls. They're consistent for a bit, but if we eat hit about 5 balls in a rally I could be sure that they'd cough up an error soon after. Is that pushing?

    I consider pushing to be just putting the ball back into play with no attempt at pace, spin, or direction. Just getting the ball over the net as much as possible. I don't consider patiently playing and waiting for an inevitable mistake pushing.
     
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  8. robbo1970

    robbo1970 Hall of Fame

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    I think if youre playing someone randomly you don't know then it can just be instinct to hit the ball back rather than try to make winning shots. If you then win comfortably you have obviously done all you need to win. If that was just pushing then I would say its more your opponent not forcing more out of you.

    I would take no notice if it was me. I play plenty of pushers and moonballers and they are frustrating to play against, but I take it that its down to me to work them more.

    I'd ignore comments like that if I were you.
     
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  9. rufus_smith

    rufus_smith Professional

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    Seems like the perfect definition of pushing. What are you doing while "waiting" , getting the ball back anyway possible, right?
     
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  10. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    So when I first read this thread, I was on your side... only a sore loser would insult you after being beaten.

    But the more I read of this thread...

    ... the more I figure I would not want to play you, regardless of whatever your actual tennis game and skill level really is.

    Someone who has a love for tennis and confidence in his own abilities would not need to make posts like that. You talk about respect but you're not showing much of it yourself.
     
    #60
  11. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    You wouldn't happen to be a graduate of the USCF2012 'whopper' school of tennis would you?
     
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  12. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Bottom line is that you crushed him and that's the final answer to everything. Yes it was rude of him and he certainly wasn't a good loser but you still crushed him. It would have been a lot worse if he somehow beat you and called you a pusher.

    I'm not nearly at your level but I played with a guy last summer who several years before insulted my game after I had not played in years and was out of shape. We played doubles and I was horrible. He kept implying I didn't deserve to be on the court with him. I was just filling in as a fourth just as a favor for someone else in the group.

    I played him last summer and beat him fairly easily with him winning just a few games in three sets. He refuses to play me anymore and tells everyone I'm not good enough for him. And you know what, I don't care. I know I can crush him and he knows it too.

    It's not easy but why bother with people like that.
     
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  13. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    I like when I beat someone and they try to explain it. That's just saying you know what I am doing, yet you don't have the ability to stop it. Congrats, you were 2nd best today.
     
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  14. Rjtennis

    Rjtennis Hall of Fame

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    What an ego! I suppose he can grind out Nadal on clay and feed him bagels. I doubt he would even care if someone called him a pusher if he was bludgeoning quality players because at that point he wouldn't be on-line questioning himself. And who counts a game of 21 as a testament of their ability? Pusher or not...who cares, this guy is a tool.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2012
    #64
  15. Roforot

    Roforot Professional

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    This is true.
     
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  16. Borrelli

    Borrelli Semi-Pro

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    Don't worry, I get to play plenty of pushers throughout the year :) Just not my preferred style of the game. I really enjoy the game being played at a fast pace with well struck shots. I also think the game looks a lot better from a spectator view if the guys aren't paddy caking and shanking. Not that I can't push the ball back and forth if need be, It just doesn't do anything for me.
     
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  17. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    i reponded with a lil bravado at some of the cracks calling me a pusher ) like when people try to small my game or backhand or something, i just say, let's play a set. they learn quick. )
     
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  18. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    When people call you a pusher, what do you do again?
    I think you push even harder and triple bagel them, making you what....?
     
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  19. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    in the tennis world, pushers aren't the best players but they are better than those who lose to them.

    This morning, I saw two youngsters playing (10 year olds, I think). One of them was a pusher and the other kid just destroyed the pusher with his superior strokes.

    People complain when they have to play pushers but when pushers face players with superior strokes, they are toasted.
     
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  20. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    Mick I'll take variety of consistent shots to beat superior strokes anyday )
     
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  21. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    Hi Gonzalito, I don't think you fit the definition of pusher. The guy called you a pusher simply because he's a sore loser.
    But then being a called a pusher is not necessary an insult considering how many people on this board have asked for tips on playing a pusher. Some have offered tips but it's not easy to execute those tips successfully on the tennis courts without having the necessary skills to do so :)
     
    #71
  22. LanEvo

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    Wait a minute, can someone give me a definition of a pusher? Reading through this thread, it seems like it is just someone who is consistent? Am I wrong?
     
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  23. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    From Kaptain Karl's thread of The Six Playing Styles Described:

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=58284

    6 - Pusher tennis players win by relying nearly exclusively on their opponent's unforced errors. They block, bunt or poke the ball with the goal of “just getting it back.” Pushers aim for just beyond the T in their opponent’s back court. This target gives them the largest margin for error.

    They give you no power, no pace, no depth or placement. They just "get it back.” The strokes of the Pusher are never full and flowing. They have little ability to employ topspin. Any “passing shots” the Pusher hits are hardly intentional. (But they never act surprised when a shot of theirs becomes unreturnable.)

    Pushers have unshakable psyches. Mind games and insults about their lack of “real” tennis ability have no effect on them. (They tell anyone in the Club about the times they beat the local High School “hero” in straight sets.) Pushers are completely aware that tennis competitors are not scored on “style”. They care only about the “W / L column.” Pushers are content with the fact that they will never be at the top of the 4.0 ladder; they know most Club payers don’t advance beyond 3.5 ... and since they are in the upper third of the 3.5 ladder, they are content.

    Pushers are some of the friendliest and most outgoing members of the Club. They are always willing to help fill-in to complete your doubles court (which usually elicits groans from the other two players on your court).

    There are no pushers in the pro ranks. None. The Pusher tops out at the 4.0 level.

    Believe-it-or-not, I distinguish two types of Pushers....

    6 a. - Soft-Ballers, as Pushers, have excellent court sense. They never seem to be out of position. Your efforts at blasting winners come floating back to land just beyond your service line. This Soft-Baller may be athletic from success in another sport, such as basketball, football or baseball. They may not have pretty strokes, but they know where to position themselves to give you the least likely angles of success. When you are begrudgingly shaking hands with them after they’ve embarrassed you again, you usually notice they are hardly even sweating ... which only “adds insult to injury.”

    6 b. - Retrievers, as Pushers, move around the court like water bugs, getting to your best “winners” and floating them back again. Their foot speed is remarkable and they seem never to tire. Your frustration at not being able to hit winners against the Pusher Retriever only seems to refill their tank” for more.

    They even have the temerity to smile throughout this match which is ripping your guts out. You try hitting even bigger winners -- or “wiping that smile off their face” with your display of power -- and they *love* this in you. They delight in watching your mind disintegrate as your very best shots just keep on coming back.

    Back in the Clubhouse, they really “twist the knife” by offering to buy the beer with that SAME SICKENINGLY PLEASANT SMILE ON THEIR ROTTEN FACE!!! The Pusher Retriever makes you seriously think about taking up some other sport from which you will gain more fulfillment. Something like ... catching javelins for the Track Club. Sheesh!!!

    - KK
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
    #73
  24. sundaypunch

    sundaypunch Hall of Fame

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    There is no accepted definition. For some people, it's anyone that hits safe shots back without going for winners. For others, it refers to people with limited skills that moonball, junkball or bloop short balls back with no pace.

    I consider pushers the latter. I don't consider "retrievers" or "grinders" as pushers. To me a retriever is someone that gets to everything, hits high percentage shots and relies on fitness, consistency and forcing errors. Many of these players have excellent strokes. They may or may not give you pace and often frustrate people.

    Pusher, retriever, grinder, many people don't like to play them as it exposes that they aren't as good as they think. A reasonably good player will destroy a pusher that just bunts the ball back. If you can't beat these people it's time to stop complaining and start practicing more.
     
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  25. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    AMEN, AMEN!
     
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  26. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    Some pusher players have minimal to no tennis talent but are incredible athletes with speed who can defend and get every ball back. When two or three extra balls come back certain better players freak out and make the error. And this pattern continues and they collapse. I played this one guy two years ago, terible form and mechanics but his defense and speed were amazing. I won 60 60 but was amazed at his weird style. Never underestimate anyone.
     
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  27. Rjtennis

    Rjtennis Hall of Fame

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    You need to post some videos so we all can see your game.
     
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  28. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    OP, you should feel complemented by being called a "pusher" by the SORE LOSER. I'm watching a little of the Wimby final replay, between Serena and Radwanska, Johnny Mac just said Serena was being "tentative...PUSHING the ball". In the previous sentence JC commented that Radwanska "...can't afford to just push the ball back, she has to use that ability she has to create some angle."

    It's only the second game of the first set--they're playing rally ball, they're a little nervous--important people are watching, "Sir" Charles Barkley's in the Williams' box. I think people are getting "pusher" confused with "hacker".
     
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  29. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Of course, pushers exist at 7.0 levels.
    One obvious pusher was HaroldSolomon, ranked well inside the top 20.
    Maybe AlbertoBarrasetechi.
    Both hit with extreme topspin, but were pushers at the 7.0 levels.
    MichaelChang, another one.
    But OP is whining. His opponent got crushed double bagels, but only saw a PUSHER doing the crushing.
     
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  30. mahgeetah

    mahgeetah New User

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    My take is that he felt bad about being crushed and tried to save face. For some reason you decided that not only should you beat him at tennis but that you had to expose his effort to save face and argue with him.

    I think next time this happens you should take the high road which is the polite road.
     
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  31. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    I would play the same as Gonzalito did if i had to play against a much lower level opponent.

    IMO, that is better than going for a winner at every opportunity. By doing the latter, the lower level opponent would not get a chance to play. He would just be picking up the balls, and I would not look either by playing that way.
     
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  32. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I've done that, and my opponent had every right to call me a pusher....which I did.
    Just like the opponent who lost bagels has every right to call OP, and YOU, a pusher, because that is exactly what you did to win.
     
    #82
  33. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    LeeD loses golden set to Michael Chang. Calls him a Pusher.
     
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  34. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    For sure, I'd lose triple bagels. But if all he did was push and tease, without trying to hit a forcing shot, that mean's he pushed and is a pusher...against me.
    Same as against YOU. If all he did was stand back and hit topspin deep balls back near the middle, and did not go for lines, he pushed at his level, but still beats YOU triple bagels.
    Since he pushed, he can be called a pusher.
     
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  35. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    why are you putting these qualifications on it. You called Chang a pusher like 4 posts back. He could just play his normal game and rightfully be called a pusher, correct?

    Except he wasn't and isn't a pusher, and saying such a thing brings into question anything else you have to say about the topic of pushers.
     
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  36. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    LeeD has been on my blocked list for a few weeks. Now all I ever see is that he has posted in most threads.
     
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  37. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I don't get you guys. Gonza said he pushed to win double bagels.
    His losing opponent saw that Gonza pushed, and beat him double bagels.
    His losing opponent saw that while Gonza hit great shots in warmup, he didn't hit any during their match.
    Therefore, in the eyes of his losing opponent, Gonza pushed to win double bagels.
    Call a fish a fish, not an eagle or a jet plane.
     
    #87
  38. IA-SteveB

    IA-SteveB Professional

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    As Mr. Hand once said, are you on dope?
     
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  39. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    well, people who lose love and love to players who simply return the ball back to them are in no position to criticize anybody but you took their side :)

    let's say, somebody in this forum got lucky and gets to play with Djokovic, how do you think Djokovic would play? He would just return the ball back, for sure. That's how high level players would play when they play much lower level players. It's normal, not a negative thing.
     
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  40. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    exactly Mick. If Djokovic finds himself in an exo or something with a Ryan O'Neal calibre palyer (2.0 level), he's going to crank it way down and play soft charity tennis in order to help the sap on the other side of the net to get to play some. And if the sap gets a little uppity and tries to hit winners you just run em down and send em back to put him in his place.
     
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  41. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Couple years ago, I got together with a poster here to hit. It was a windy day, and I'd just windsurfed for over 2 hours.
    We met at the VirginiaSt. courts, where leaves were blowing around, and swirling winds maybe 0-20mph.
    Warming up, we both hit hard shots, but the ball was moving around, and our rallies were short and disjointed. We decided to play anyways.
    He was a top ranked 3.5 at the time, before the bumpups. You know I claim 4.0. He was in the middle of his competitive season, right around July, while I hadn't played any tennis for 2 months....it's my windsurfing season.
    I lost the first 3 games, then decided to hit only conti grip slices. I won 3 and 3. I also stayed back at the baseline as often as possible, because the net was located at the opening of the hitting wall, and winds there were killer.
    Afterwards, he said I needed to push to beat him. I apologized .. "sorry, that was all I had in me" and he stomped off.
    Yes, I pushed then. He had every right to call me a pusher, because that's how I managed to avoid a loss. I tried to email him a couple times right after, but never got another answer.
    In his eyes, I was a pusher. I agree, I pushed to win those two sets, never hitting a topspin forehand or topspin backhand, just used slices.
     
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  42. Gonzalito17

    Gonzalito17 Hall of Fame

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    What a wuss this player was LeeD, good job. Anybody who whines about "losing to a pusher" is just camaflouging their mediocrity in their own mind. Competitive tennis is all about winning, that's why we play, that's why we keep score.
     
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  43. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    for me, i don't really care too much about winning because I know my limitations. I just try play the best I can based upon my ability. But I am with you. If the other player just hits the ball back and you lose love and love, you shouldn't be criticizing how the other player played. Furthermore, in Tennis, you are supposed to play the style that makes your opponent most uncomfortable. If your opponent can't handle the pushing style, that's how you should play him. When Federer lost to Nadal, you didn't hear him say "I lost because Nadal hit to my backhand 95% of the time"
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
    #93
  44. Rjtennis

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    I wouldn't, I would probably mix it up by serving and volleying (something I'm uncomfortable doing) to keep things competitive while working on a part of my game.
     
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  45. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Mediocre players love pace because all they then have to do is block it back, not needing to produce any pace of their own. In this thread, the so called "pushed" shot, forces the mediocre one to create their own pace, which they are ill equipped to do lacking fundamental stroke technique. The slow paced ball hit with top-spin goes high over the net and deep into the court, changing trajectory, making it difficult for the hacker because it's not in his wheel house. They hack and slash hitting the ball into the net or into the fences. Then they lose and instead of taking responsibility for their lack of game, deride their opponent for not giving them the hard paced balls they shank back unpredictably. Don't feed the hacker.
     
    #95
  46. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    Djokovic vs a very young fan :)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33rtGOnTnBA
     
    #96
  47. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    i don't do it because the kinds of ball you get from players far below your level are not the same as the kinds you would get from the players at your level. you could execute a perfect volley when facing a 2.5 level ball but that skill won't help you when you face a 4.0/4.5 level ball. thus, if i want to practice such a shot, I would practice with players at my level.
     
    #97
  48. darrinbaker00

    darrinbaker00 Professional

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    I don't blame that guy for never playing you again, Lee. Don't you know that adapting your game according to the weather requires thinking while you play, which is pure, unadulterated BLASPHEMY? :twisted:
     
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  49. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    The little girl has a beautiful one handed slice back hand! She may be taking lessons from Rosewall. Notice she is using a full size racket, although it's almost bigger then she is, and is having no trouble swinging it through a full range of motion. Her take-back is high over her head, a la Fed, providing racket head momentum for plenty of power. Hopefully no one will try to get her to switch to a two hander for "more power". I wish they'd shown more of her and less of Jock. She looked like she was loving it all--future champion.
     
    #99
  50. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    Yes, Tom, she has a lovely backhand slice. It looks very natural :)
     

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