I figured out why my serve is lame

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by arche3, Nov 13, 2013.

  1. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    If the claims are true.

    We haven't seen a serve video yet to judge.

    Seems more like a "humble brag" thread to me. Someone help me my serve is only 110 mph sob sob.

    We need a video.
     
  2. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    At 4.5, 110 first flat serves, not used often, and 90 mph top/slice serves is pretty average, and possibly not enough for advancement, but enough to maintain for a while.
     
  3. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Please Mr hack 2. Read my first 5 or so posts in this thread. I didnt even mention any indication of speed. Just that I was flawed in my serve. I only answered with a speed reference for mr hack 1 bb777 because he was being a jerk. So no. I was not bragging, I didn't reference any top speed reference because it is not important in my thread. I said I can serve 100 easily to refute an annoying post by hack 1. Learn to participate in a thread properly. You think with your million posts you would know how. How about you post a video? Maybe you can play bb777. That would be good for a laugh.

    Entertain us on ttw. Post even a video of you hitting against a wall. Or stfu.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  4. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    This is beyond my understanding, so I might be wrong..:shock:
    If you mean "racket drop" as a moment in time when the racket is pointing at the ground, at the loop swing, after trophy position, then is the shoulder really any factor? Seems like the ability to bend the elbows as much as possible is the key here.
    I get my elbow about 2" higher than my hand, lefty, and about 2" lower than my hand, rightie. My right elbow don't bend, it dont' serve either.
    But rather than a long swing, isn't swing speed the more important? Swingspeed has something to do with length of swing, but acceleration of the racket is the final factor in swing speed.
    That's why, in plenty of recent serving vids, I always recommend...BEND THE ELBOW at trophy, so it get's bent more during the loop swing.
    But of course, I can be wrong.
     
  5. bblue777

    bblue777 Banned

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    Mr. Sureshs you could not have said any better.
     
  6. bblue777

    bblue777 Banned

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    Racket drop perhaps makes a difference in the pros as they already have perfected their techniques.

    But for a (supposedly) 4.5 to sob sob not enough flexibility, without showing anything, then have everybody else put in their $0.02... That is too funny.

    Let's get real here.. There are other far bigger issues in Arche3's serve, then the stiff shoulder sob sob.

    But again, without seeing it, all this is speculation.
     
  7. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Maybe you should show us your serve. I admit I'm a 2.5 ntrp. Now show us your game troll. Or just keep playing kissy face w suresh.

    Your lack of tennis knowledge is staggering. Racket drop only makes a difference in pros? Really? Wow.

    All you trolls are the same. You ignore anything related to yourself but just make up things to wreck threads. Loser.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  8. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Stop having a conversation with yourself.
     
  9. Avles

    Avles Hall of Fame

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    Guess we're seeing different things, I thought it was pretty clear from that video that Arche3 is a strong player.

    Inflated radar mph?
     
  10. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    I'm going to work on the sideways thing. Not sure I understand about the ab crunch thing. But I must be doing something with my stomach muscles because now that I'm down to 175 lbs. I can almost see the faint outlines of a six-pack in the abdominal area when the Crohn's isn't acting up and distending my belly. Will try to work on swingpath also.

    As for swinging fast, well, that's what I can't do and also get the ball in the service box with any better consistency than about 50% (and sometimes even less) currently.

    Interestingly, for me, the serve swing effort percentages that you mention correspond roughly to the same numbers (in mph) for serve speeds. At 60% effort my serves are probably around 60mph and at 90% probably around 90mph.

    At the moment, and just for opponents at my low ntrp level, I'm liking the returns I'm getting off of the 60 to 65 mph serves that I can get in a total of about 90% for both serves. That is, yeah, the opponent is taking full swings and hitting the ball farther into my side of the court, but for me that's a good thing, because the 90 to 95mph serves, while getting some service winners when it goes in also elicits lots of block backs which are, effectively, drop shots that I have to run my butt off toward the net to get to.

    Anyway, thanks for the tips. I'll post about it if I get anything to actually improve anything about my serve.

    Yes, that's what I understand "racket drop" to mean. It's beyond my understanding too, but it seems that flexibility in the elbow, wrist, and shoulder all contribute. It makes sense to me that if a person has a problem with range of motion of any of those parts, then that could hamper the serve.
    Well, you said it. "Swingspeed has something to do with length of swing". I can see how not being able to rotate the shoulder enough to bring the forearm down to 3 o'clock or a bit lower at max racket drop can mean enough MPHs difference in swing speed to make a significant difference in serve speed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  11. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I just looked at an essential tennis article while researching racket drop. They claim It is one of the few things all good servers have in common. Regardless of serve style. My tennis coach friend who pointed out my lack of flexibility seems to have a supportive argument from ian at essential tennis about the importance of this matter.

    As an FYI this coach who helped with my serve clocked 125 mph on the same radar I was clocked on this past summer. The ball left his racket so fast I can barely see it as it hit the back screen. It was literally I hear the crack and the ball was on the screen. There's a exponential difference in perception when returning a 100mph serve or a 125mph serve.
     
  12. bblue777

    bblue777 Banned

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    Arche3 you have clearly never played high level tennis.

    There is no 'exponential' difference. It feels that way because you rarely see this speed.

    Assuming your claim of 100mph is true, a 4.0 who usually sees 80mph serves will feel as if 100 is 'exponentially faster'.

    Why are there so many tie breaks in the first set when pros play? because it's hard to pick up the serves in the beginning. But after a set, that ball starts look a lot bigger and comes a lot slower. The brain does an amazing job in calibrating to such things.

    And by the way, stop the 'humble brag' of 100mph and the 'humble show off' - hey look at me, I play with some guy who hit 125mph.

    Tennis is for sissies. Real men does this - talking about 'FAST'

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRWp9rhfS_0
     
  13. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    What are you talking about? Very few people hit 125. Which is why I feel its vastly different. Stop trolling,

    This is a tennis forum what's with the Motorsport reference?

    I'd imagine 3.0 tennis is high level for you. We can't all be able to hit three balls in a row. Its ok . show us a video and maybe ttw can help you.

    Do you think a conti grip is only for the pros as well on a serve?
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  14. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    What are you talking about? Tennis isn't for sissies; it takes balls to play tennis.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  15. Tight Lines

    Tight Lines Professional

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    bblue, you are a really annoying guy. I find that very interesting as you are a relatively new poster. If you don't have anything constructive or nice to say, then ....

    Harry
     
  16. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    ^ I've gotta agree with this. DNFTT -- his mission in life seems to make himself feel more important by putting down others.


    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2013
  17. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Yes leeD. I mean the part when the tip is pointing at the ground. The back scratch position. I was taught that on a properly executed serve the arm swing is best kept outside the body like a throw. You don't drop the racket literally behind your back. But rather to the side of the body. The only way to do that is to have flexability in your shoulder. See the picture stills of all good servers. The drop is outside the body not behind your back.

     
  18. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    arche3,

    to increase your racquet drop, try supinating your hand/forearm a little
    bit and also reducing the angle at the trophy position between upper arm
    and forearm. This might give you a slightly deeper racquet drop.
    It will probably also add topspin to your serve, though. It's not ideal for
    power, but might get you a little more racquet speed.

    I think a lot of people lose flexibility over time due to lack of stretching
    but also that we don't use the opposite direction muscles much so we
    end up with a bias towards the muscles requiring forward motion and
    throwing but no the opposite. Doing some rotator cuff exercises should
    help (and also reduce the likelihood of getting an injury when attempting
    hard serves).
     
  19. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Yeah stretching was helpful past few days. My shoulder felt looser and I can get slightly better drop now. Bad thing is I over did it. My shoulder is now killing me with all the stretching and serving. Lmao. But yesterday I served better than I can remember. Taking a week off to heal. Then really going to focus on stretches and strength of shoulder and general flexability plus conditioning. It's hard court season indoors now so I have to deal with my knee issues as well.... getting old sucks. I have a friend 57 years old who does yoga. He is so flexible and nimble. I might do that.
     
  20. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    If you injured your shoulder, a week is not long enough to heal.

    Search: CharlieFedererer tendon healing time

    or similar terms - impingement serve etc.- to find some of CharlieFedererer's charts and discussions.

    See the Ellenbecker video on the shoulder and technique to minimize impingement on the serve.

    Experimenting with new serving techniques with a new sore or injured shoulder is not good...........

    High speed video camera.........

    Instructor.

    Good luck.
     
  21. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Thanks. Got the coach. Got the speed guns on court. No camera. It actually seems to be my right chest muscles more than anything internal.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2013
  22. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    Just make sure you are properly warmed up before stretching or even
    attempting hard serves -- especially during colder weather.

    I do some yoga (not enough, though) and it definitely helps a bit with
    flexibility. You may find even doing the downward dog position is a stretch.
     
  23. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Warmup good, as is hitting 10 serves at 60%.
    Flexibility is nice and hunky dory, but not all that necessary.
    A FAST forward swing, with good timing to allow the racket HEAD to come through into the ball is key, short swing or long swing.
    Didn't JimCourier have a fast jerky short service motion? He hit into the high 130's on his fastest flat serves.
    Working on flexibility might HINDER your swing speed. Yoga peeps don't serve hard, nor throw far.
    You can try the old shoulder flex test. One hand over your shoulder, reaching down your back, the other hand under your armpit, reaching up.
    Some guys can grab hands. Most yoga hotties can grab wrists.
    I come within 14" finger tip to finger tip, and I USED to be able to serve well into the 120's with that amount of flexibility. That was 35 years ago, and I have turned 64+ 9 months since.
     
  24. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I agree with all suggestions and ideas (with exception of the blue 7 jerk) I might just need to deal with a ok serve pace and work on placement. I'm going to a physio sports trainer tomorrow to see if I can get more range of motion. On a side note my health insurance is awesome. I get chiropractic and physical therapy 100 percent covered.
     
  25. EP1998

    EP1998 Semi-Pro

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    Working with a physio is a good idea. It will be interesting to hear what yours recommends. I know a physio who used to travel with a grand slam winner. His approach for serving training is combination of hip and shoulder. For the right handed player, the left hip is very important. Both the hip and shoulder have to work in all planes of motion.
     
  26. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I went to a sports recovery doctor person this afternoon. She measured my range of motion in my left and right shoulders. I am right handed. My right shoulder is much more restricted than my left... ? She said it is common. I have a stretching regiment and physical therapy a couple times a week with her to see if I can recover some range of motion. She seems confident I can get some back.
     
  27. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Don't be surprised, as your shoulder gets more flexibility, your serve goes down a bit in speed.
    But in time, it will increase it's speed.
    Try the shoulder flex test I use. One had below armpit, the other above shoulders, reaching around the back to try to touch fingers.
    I get about 12" today, of separation. Was installing hardwood floors all day, so I"m stretched out.
     

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