I have the power of ESP. I can see the future of tennis strings.

Discussion in 'Strings' started by travlerajm, Jun 30, 2013.

  1. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

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    Just to add to travlerajm's answer. Based on what I've read on this thread, the cross should be a thick gauge, low stiffness and slippery (low COF). This is where ZX is so good. As it is slippery with low stiffness.

    You can view the COF of a string here - http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/COFreporter.php

    You can view the stiffness of a string here - http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/stringfinder/stringfinder.php. In the dropdown menu, sort by power.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2013
  2. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    THANKS!

    It looks like none of those strings are good for this.

    I have some gut and it looks like that is the best choice.

    Also wouldnt gut be better anyhow as it seems to do better than the zx in stiffness and cof?
     
  3. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

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    No problem. ZX's COF is 0.88. This is lower then any gut. The lower the better.
     
  4. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

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    No. The tension on the molecules of string will be the same regardless of the length of the string.
     
  5. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

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    For the cross, I would recommend either a poly (which is slippery), or Monogut ZX (which is slippery like a poly but has better tension maintenance than poly as long as it is prestretched). Syn gut strings start out slippery, but the surface roughens after an hour or two of hitting.
     
  6. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Oh I must have misread things. THe first one listed was Babalot gut, but looking closer that was part of a hybrid so maybe that is where I got the gut has low cof idea.

    Thanks TJ. I'll have to get different strings to try this, though i do have a poly or 2 I dont like em. They have a plasticy feeling that bugs me.
     
  7. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    OK, is cof most important??

    FOr instance which string is a better choice?

    One with a stiffness of 142 but cof of .135
    or one with a stiffness of 229 but cof of .074?
     
  8. jaydog23

    jaydog23 Rookie

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    Quite incorrect; it's the opposite way around, if anything. When you hang 80lbs by a string vertically, the top of the string has to support the 80lbs and the rest of the string weight that is below it. In nonvertical cases, though, 80lbs on a short or long string doesn't make a difference. Maybe your thinking what would happen if you looped the string?
     
  9. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

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    moved.....
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2013
  10. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

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    I would have to re-direct this question to travlerajm, as I don't know. It may be best to have a string that performs well in both categories, like ZX, VS Touch and Pacific Prime.

    At this stage, people are trying many different combo's, like Kevlar/Gut, Kevlar/Poly and Poly/Gut. Travlerajms choice of Kevlar/ZX may be too stiff and uncomfortable for some people, but this remains to be seen.

    If you click on a string in the TWU String Finder and then click on the spin potential number, you can get the COF of the string. Ignore the COF Ball, it is the COF of the string that is important for a cross string in a hybrid. I find this easier then using both the string finder and the string friction rankings.

    I can get a bit OCD with all the TWU statistics, but it definitely helps me pick strings.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2013
  11. Bhairava

    Bhairava Rookie

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    Just tested tour bite/black widow and,as a preview,I can say: say: it works!!futher details in the next hours :D
     
  12. Bhairava

    Bhairava Rookie

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    Well, I've player For just 30min with TB/BW at 26kg/20kg,something like 57lbs/44lbs. Both strings have been prestreched but not fully prestreched. In the first few hours after stringing the crosses were still tight and the stringbed was stiff and without any power. After 12 hours and after some stepping with the foot over the stringbed the be has lost tension as usual and the stringbed became more lively,powerful and less stiff.
    the most incredible trait of this setup is the very low angle of shot.maybe even too much low: I'm used to the high launch angle of tb at 48lbs. The second thing you notice is the high spin capability of this setup, until now it seems quite similar to a fresh bed of tb at normal tension.third thing is that stringbed stiffness is really the mean of mains and crosses stiffness.I fan feel the high stiffness of tb at high tensions,but I don't get shock on the arm,and I'm sensitive to elbow pain. It is even possible that some strange interactions happens between those,two strings-the don't even ping as a normal stringbed,because of the very different resonating frequencies.well, I have tested it only 30minutes,tomorrow I'll play with it for a couple of hours and I'll tell you some more infos
     
  13. ricardo

    ricardo Professional

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    Questions please.

    1. Does the string length matter?
      If I pre-stretch 10ft at a time due to space constraints, should I still use the same body lean weight as when pre-stretching 40ft?
    2. If I use my dropweight stringer (gamma x2) and pre-stretch 20 ft at a time, what setting (lbs) should I use?
    3. What if I pre-stretch 10 ft. at a time, should I change the setting that I use when pre-stretching 20 ft?

    Thanks in advance...
     
  14. brokenRPM

    brokenRPM Rookie

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    played with the 18g kevlar/18g hex poly combo again tonight. it is very stiff. my elbow was hurting. so i switch over to my usual full hex poly and it felt like butter.....this is crazy stuff.
     
  15. Bhairava

    Bhairava Rookie

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    i'm pretty sure that poly hex at 55 isn't a super soft strong!!you need to put a soft string in a low tension to make a super soft string in order to counterbalance the super stiffness of kevlar@65lbs!!
    60/50 kevlar/poly hex and you will be fine.or,if you wanna do it(I do it) cut off the crosses and put them again at 45. 65/45 will be fine AS SOFTNESS...
     
  16. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

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    moved.....
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2013
  17. Bhairava

    Bhairava Rookie

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    Travlerjam, I'll be happy to see if with Kevlar 16 you will solve the problem raised with Kevlar 18.but I have another idea that I'm developing. You have your mains at 28kg,that is really high on a 98sq inc frame; obviously even if prestreched this Kevlar has lost tension after 10hours,with those tensions.
    My idea is that as cross you need not a powerful soft string,but a low powered soft string! With a soft,powerful string like ZX you are forced to put Kevlar at very high tension. With a low powered soft string you can string the crosses very loose,and you can string your Kevlar mains softer too.the key could be to maintain an high differential tension but staying low on the average tension and still get a not-too-much powerful frame.you did 28kg/22 kg kevlar/ZX. Now your Kevlar has lose tension,but if you would do 26/22kg you would lose ESP.I did TB/BW at 26/20kg on a 100sqinc frame,and is still low powered!!I feel I can go to 24/18kg getting a setup much more softer than yours,and with the Kevlar mains at 24 I can expect mains will not lose so easy their tension ;)
     
  18. Bhairava

    Bhairava Rookie

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    Remember to translate kg to lbs multiplying them by 2.2 ;)
    So,at the end,I could suggest you to try a soft,less powerful cross in order to scale down all mains&crosses tensions.
     
  19. ricardo

    ricardo Professional

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    Gut is an exception to this rule.

    I agree that most strings (poly and nylon) will get stiffer as more tension is applied. In contrast, some NG, at some tension, do not get stiffer at higher tension. On the contrary, some becomes less stiff at higher tension.

    The Travlerjam rule refers to tension, not stiffness.
    Tension and stiffness are two different things. They are not the same.
    So in this sense, NG is NOT an exception to the rule.

    Does the spin potential change after pre-stretching? I'm just wondering if the TWU COF and "COF Ball" figures are still relevant, after pre-stretching a string.

    No.
    When I pre-stretch a poly, the surface remains smooth as before. It does not become rough. It remains slippery to the touch and during play. The real question is this: Will pre-stretching a string causes it to lose its COF and "COF Ball" attributes quicker. I don't know. I haven't noticed.
     
  20. souledge

    souledge Semi-Pro

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    His original idea related to stiffness, not tension, correct?
     
  21. ricardo

    ricardo Professional

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    Travlerjam idea has always been high tension differential, not stiffness differential. That is my understanding.

    Maybe we should ask Travlerjam.
     
  22. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

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    Could someone clarify what effective tension is?
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
  23. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

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    The idea is to have a large stiffness and tension differential, in a low friction hybrid. A thin main and thick cross is also preferential.
     
  24. ricardo

    ricardo Professional

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    When you string a racket, you set a reference tension. This is the tension that you set on your stringer.

    The string will lost tension significantly during and after stringing, and during the first few hits. Thereafter the tension stabilizes. It will continue to lose tension but not as much compared to just after stringing and during the first few hits.

    When the tension stabilizes, you now have what you can call the effective tension.
     
  25. ricardo

    ricardo Professional

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    Stiffness: Longitudinal and perpendicular...

    Stiffness: Longitudinal and perpendicular...

    When you are stringing a racket, you are affecting its longitudinal stiffness; you are stretching the string lengthwise.

    When you are hitting the ball from low to high, you are affecting its perpendicular stiffness, the ball is moving the string (mains) sideways, stretching it.

    According to TWU's experiment, tension loss has a much more significant effect on longitudinal stiffness than on perpendicular stiffness.

    Note:
    The Main string perpendicular stiffness should be high enough to produce a strong snap-back.
    In addition, the snap-back should be encouraged by using a slippery cross at an optimal low tension, much lower than the mains.
     
  26. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I think that the snap back theory is overrated, its the new thing and everyone thinks they are getting all this snap back action and creating monster spin from it.

    Its funny how I can get a lot of spin from a full bed of gamma powerplay which is kevlar with basically no snap back. I believe you need pro like racket speed to really get much added spin from snap back. Spin is from technique not snap back.
     
  27. souledge

    souledge Semi-Pro

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    Maybe it's both?
     
  28. ricardo

    ricardo Professional

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    I believe that most posters here know that most of the spin is generated by technique. It is a given. This is the string section, and most people who come here are looking for that ideal string that can give them additional spin.

    People who want to improve their technique to generate monstrous spin go to the Tennis Tips/Instruction section.

    I think that strings matter to help generate additional spin. That is why most of the pros who already have well developed strokes to generate monstrous topspin uses poly, to maximize their topspin generation.
     
  29. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Hey Traveler,

    I noticed you had the red zx string. DOes it matter if it is the normal color??
     
  30. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

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    moved.....
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2013
  31. Bhairava

    Bhairava Rookie

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    I've played 2hours more with 26/20kg TB/BW setup,and I can say that I prefer it now that the mains have lost some tension. 6kg of differential,equal to 13.2lbs, is too much for me;the shot angle difference between flat shots and spin shots are a bit too much. Now the racquet is squashed only 0.3cm,so 1/8", I can suppose the mains have lost a pair of kg and the racquet has great spin and sufficient power. Now, in order to stress less the racquet and in order to get POWERFUL flat shots(now are a bit weak) I'll go to 24/20kg. Less ESP,a bit more traditional setup,I think this one will hold for more time. In 26/20setup the strings are losing tension each hour(poly characteristic...)
    so I'll string another prince ozone tour mp with 24/20kg(manual,not-too-much prestrech) and I'll see how it works :)
     
  32. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I never said that string does not matter and certain strings and combinations can help with spin. But not everyone is just looking for more spin, some want more control or comfort and power.

    But again back to my point which was that I think that all this talk about snap back is way over done. Most players do not have enough racket head speed to create enough snap back to make any difference. Plus for the tiny bit of time that the ball is on the strings I don't believe that the string snapping back can add that much spin.

    I would bet that I spend more than most on strings, and experiment all the time with a lot of different string combos. So believe me I am well aware of how much strings effect our play, just not sold on the snap back making much difference.
     
  33. Bhairava

    Bhairava Rookie

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    Tlm,if you need a prove to know the importance of snapback, try to play with a 50lbs mains and 55lbs crosses strung racquet. Tell us,with the proper technique,what's the spin obtained.you will find that, no matter how good your technique is, you will just shoot the ball upward with little rotation.
    it is something like the "reversed esp" that for a mistake an user here in those page has declared to have tried.if you lock the mains you will not get spin,period.
    it is useless to remember that power and control is still important if you write that in a post where we are looking for the maximum spin possible :-D
    if anyone would say "the current technology is fine" we would still play with wood racquets and gut,period.
    here in this post we are looking at how get the maximum spin PROVIDED proper technique and with a playable(not too much stiff) stringbed :)
    just strung 24/20kg tb/bw,much softer than before,I'll try it tomorrow letting the strings lose some tension and stabilize :)
     
  34. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

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    45-lb differential (80/35)!

    This extreme experiment probably deserves its own thread. I strung up my siliconed/leaded (13.8-oz.) shortened (27") POG LB with 18g kevlar/ 16g Prince Tournament Poly @ 80/35 lbs, both thoroughly pre-stretched. The frame is only squashed 3/16".

    I think using kevlar mains might be a key here -- since the kevlar's length varies very little with tension compared to other strings, the frame does not need to distort much to alleviate most of the tension differential.

    Less distortion means that initially, the frame is under much less stress when the mains are kevlar vs poly (or worse, vs gut).
    Less intitial stress on the frame also means less initial stress on the mains.
    Less stress on the mains means lower creep rate.
    Lower creep rate means longer lasting ESP effect (the ESP effect lasts as long as a substantial differential can be maintained - this is why prestretching is essential).
    The differential with increased tension on mains vs crosses certainly enhances snapback by reducing snapback force hysteresis, which certainly enhances spin potential.

    I will point out that I am probably looking for a stiffer feel than some players. Stiffer stringbed means lower launch angle and better directional control, especially against heavy incoming spin. I consider myself a connoisseur of control, and for me, the most amazing benefit of ESP is not the extraordinary spin potential by itself, but that I can get the extraordinary spin potential without sacrificing the control of a stiffer stringbed. My expectation is that my 80/35 setup will have longer-lasting ESP powers than with milder differential. Looking forward to trying it out.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2013
  35. ricardo

    ricardo Professional

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    Even if you do not pre-stretch gut, it becomes softer (less stiff), at higher tensions (>60 lbs).

    More about gut here:
    http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/LC/Naturalgut.html
     
  36. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

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    Okay, I will move my questions to a new thread to not muddy this thread with irrelevance.
     
  37. ricardo

    ricardo Professional

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    Wow!!!

    My arm gets so scared it tries to run away.

    Oh my poor arm.
    I promise you I will not subject you to this kind of torture.
     
  38. Bhairava

    Bhairava Rookie

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    LOL, kevlar at 80lbs?! But I don't understand why the blade frame with Kevlar at 65lbs(or something like that) squashed much more then Kevlar at 80lbs on a frame,the shortened longbody POG,that has so little graphite on the hoop. It makes no sense.
    at the same time I don't understand how do you play with a so stiff stringbed :D I feel my 26/20kg stiff and is just poly/poly.. I can't imagine Kevlar at 80.and I think there is a limit tension at which the mains stop moving,giving you less spin.
    tell us how this experiment will perform :)
     
  39. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I don't have to try that I already have, I have been using gamma power play main which is kevlar at 64 lbs with blue gear x's at 68 lbs and I get huge spin from this set up. My top spin forehand will jump well above your shoulders in a very uncomfortable position.

    Or I use the zx main at 66 lbs. with blue gear at 68 lbs. and again create big top spin. So I don't know if you are talking from what you have read or heard, but I actually have tested it. The question is have you?
     
  40. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

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    Tried esp today.

    93" pog with ashaway kevlar 18g at 40lbs. Prestretched by hand and on the wise cp machine with the 25% option.

    Crosses were Ashaway zx at 24 lbs. prestretched by hand and also with the machine.

    Like traveler i love a firm string bed and the stiffer the better to tame my power. Was using kevlar/ gut at 63/65. Played a bunch and did some painting the same week with spray cans and of course ended up with te.

    Its improving and i have been playing 2 times a week and played 2 sets last friday. Low tensions have really helped and i am amazed i can even hit in the court with that low of a tension.

    Enter esp. I liked it. I suspect the 8 additional pounds in the mains gave more of the stiffer feel i naturally like. But i was worried about my arm.

    Unfortunately i didnt notice any extra spin compared to the string combo i have in the racket in the sig line. On a few shots there was some extra spin, but i had that on a few shots with either racket.

    The guy i was hitting with said both rackets were about the same and that if he had to pick the low tension one might have more spin. At the end i took some bigger cuts on the ball just to see and there was some good spin but i think that might have more to do with the higher tension in the mains.

    Also i was not a huge fan of the zx string. It felt plastically like a poly.

    I played well with the esp racket and perhaps a bit better than the lower tension...at least in terms of groundies. I am guessing that is just the kevlar at the higher tension. Though my slices were better with the lower tension.

    Anyow it was a good experiment. Maybe i did something wrong on the stringing or prestretching, the rackets were different and not exactly matched. They weighed the same but the esp one was a bit more hh. Dont ask about swing weights as those formulas dont work. I think the esp one was heavier because of the 16g zx vs the 18g syngut.

    Anyhow once this te is done I will revisit, but now the elt seems best for me. I benefit from the slices and touch and the groundstrokes are still good, but my forehand is always best with a stiff bed.

    Didnt someone say something about technique?

    Stringing zx was not bad but not great either. That stuff about not tying the knots tight is crazy. You have to or the knot wont be tied!

    Traveler what about a 32lbs/ 11lbs test?
     
  41. Bhairava

    Bhairava Rookie

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    I can just feel the difference of spin between 23/23kg and 23/22kg on tour bite setup, 2.2lbs less on crosses already make a little difference.
    And as a fact I always get poor spin from good strings that get old. why?Because they do not snap back, every time I see displaced main strings I get know that they are not snapping back and the string need to be changed.
    Obviously snap-back is not the only parameter!textured string, rough string, material...and first of all the right technique ;)
     
  42. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Because you think that you feel the difference of 2 lbs. less in the x's does not mean that it gives anymore spin. Strings that are old can lose their resiliency and life so they won't produce good spin.
     
  43. brokenRPM

    brokenRPM Rookie

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    tried kevlar mains (stretched 18g @ 65) and natural gut (16g, unstretched, @50).

    The combo sucks. The strings get stuck. I think poly or something smoother is better. the gut thing frays quickly.
     
  44. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

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    Try ZX. It has low stiffness and is as slippery as a poly.
     
  45. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Kevlar at 63?

    My elbow hurts, already.
     
  46. brokenRPM

    brokenRPM Rookie

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    yes, at 65, it hurts my wrists.
     
  47. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

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    Interestingly, my kevlar/poly at 80/35 lbs felt very soft and springy, much softer than I expected, as if it were strung at ~50 lbs. ESP effect was good though.
     
  48. ricardo

    ricardo Professional

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    Interesting.

    When you string NG at higher tensions (>60lbs), the stiffness actually declines.
    Maybe Kevlar has the same characteristic: it becomes less stiff at very high tension (maybe >70 lbs).
     
  49. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

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    No. Kevlar gets stiffer with higher tension.

    But with the poly crosses at 45 lbs lower tension than the kevlar mains, the mains were completely unconstrained in the lateral direction, which I think makes gives the impact a softer feel.
     
  50. Bhairava

    Bhairava Rookie

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    I get off from the ESP wagon until I'll found a good kevlar string here in Italy. The problem is, is not viable with poly/poly because it last 2 hours!!Then I think the squashed graphite pull a strong force on the poly mains making them go dead very quickly.26/20kg lasted 2 hours, then zero power(but still spin).24/20kg lasted 3 hours.
    I can suppose is also an high temperature fault of these days, and I did wrong avoiding to get a powerful string for cross. black widow at 20kg does not help very much for the power.
    For this setup to be viable it is needed an already dead main string(kevlar) and a powerful, robust cross string(like ZX) if you want more than 3 hours of playing.
    And I found another little problem. When you use high differential tension the behaviours of mains and crosses are "decoupled". You get one launch angle when you hit the ball with a good spin angle(let say for the sake of semplicity when brushing the ball with 45° racquet angle, more or less), and you get a total different angle when hitting a FLAT ball(90° racquet angle).
    Okey, this is not a big problem because you can get used to those two launch angle(and 2 stiffness too: spin shots are soft because, as travlerjam said, you use almost all the mains in a way that the move a lot in lateral direction, so they appear soft, but flat shots are STIFF because in this case you impact the full stiffness of kevlar),
    BUT the problem is in all the middle impact angles. Like a spin lobe, that usually you do with little racquet angle. Or with slice backhand, dropshot, forehand chop, or a forehand hit that you make when late and you cannot give the right racquet angle. In all those cases the stringbed reaction is quite weird, a mixture of the flat and the "full spin" shots, giving you unpredictacble launch angle, at least for me.
    So in order to make this setup viable one should find not only the right strings, not only the right differential tension but also the right individual tension in order to get similar stiffness(and behaviour) of the two strings. And if mains or crosses lose tensions in different way you will get unusable stringbed after little time.
    This is not the case with a full poly stringbed, because it's shot angle change over time too, but all racquet shot behaviour change in the same time. In engineering terms, standard setups are stable systems while this ESP setup is unstable system.
    But I haven't tried travlerjam setup, so maybe he found the right stability for him. :)
     

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