I have the power of ESP. I can see the future of tennis strings.

Discussion in 'Strings' started by travlerajm, Jun 30, 2013.

  1. brokenRPM

    brokenRPM Rookie

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    I think that's why pros string their rackets new for matches 'casue they need that stable system.

    i cut the gut out and replaced it with a 17g isospeed baseline at 45lbs (unstretched). The first set was good and then i lost control in the second set. I think pre-stretching is necessary for this set up because it makes the system stable longer.
     
  2. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

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    After several ESP experiments in different frames, I suggest:
    a) Don't use poly for either mains or crosses - too unstable, even when pre-stretched.
    b) I still recommend kevlar/ZX, with both prestretched.

    By the way, I am still playing with the same ESP stringbed that started off this thread a month ago. It has about 25h of play on it, and the kevlar is getting close to breaking. The performance is not as amazing as it was for the first 8-10h, but it still performs better than any conventional stringbed.
     
  3. corners

    corners Legend

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    Why do you write this? The lab tests show that NG does not increase in stiffness much, if at all, in the longitudinal direction. But it doesn't decrease either. However, at higher tensions the perpendicular stiffness (measured by string deflection) does increase.
     
  4. Bhairava

    Bhairava Rookie

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    Unreal,25hours or playing with good spin?really awesome..I'll try kevlar and ZX when I'll find them :)
     
  5. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

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    The key is a thorough pre-stretch. The playing characteristics changed a little during the first 8-10h as the frame gradually returned to its unsquashed length. It has been full length since then, and the stringbed has stayed consistent since then. The only downside was that I had to be sure to adjust the swingweight at the start of eevery other playing session (by removing a tiny bit of lead from the tip) over the first 8-10 hours to keep MgR/I constant, because the swingweight would increase a touch each time as the racquet length returned to normal.
     
  6. Bhairava

    Bhairava Rookie

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    What do you think happened to the 10th hour,when the racquet returned to its original length?Kevlar has lost 14lbs and reached zx tension?it seems impossible to me(Kevlar is so stiff and you prestreched it too)
     
  7. ricardo

    ricardo Professional

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    If you look at pacific classic gut 16g, the stiffness is as follows:

    1 Classic Natural Gut 16 Low (40 lbs) 95.4
    2 Classic Natural Gut 16 Medium (51 lbs) 100.0
    3 Classic Natural Gut 16 High (62 lbs) 90.9

    You can clearly see for yourself that the stiffness at a reference tension of 62lbs is 90.9, which is lower than the stiffness at the lower reference tensions (40 and 51 lbs).

    Here is the link to TW String performance DB:
    http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/reporter.php

    I am currently using this string so I am familiar with the stiffness behaviour at different tensions. Maybe the other gut brands do not exhibit the same behaviour as pacific classic (i.e stiffness going down at higher tensions).
     
  8. alpinenut

    alpinenut New User

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    Had to try this. My "standard" setup is a Head Graphene Speed MP with weight at 3, 9, and 12. Strings Cyclone 17 at 54 and Volkl Synthetic (very slick and firm for SG) at 54. I settled on this after many different hybrid trials. So, I have reels and didn't want to buy new strings to try this out. (all strings are pre-stretched)
    First setup, mains at 59 and crosses at 49. Trajectory much lower, it was too tight, and hurt my arm. Second setup, 57/47. Trajectory lower than "standard" but higher than First setup, softer feel than First setup, more power than First setup, more control than "standard", but still a bit firm.
    I like the trajectory and spin of Second setup but it's still a bit firm. Third setup options - 56/46, 57/43, or 56/44. Any suggestions?
    Overall, what I like best about this type of setup is having more control of the trajectory and the combination of a firm feel yet more power from the lower tension cross strings. Spin seems relatively similar to me so far.
     
  9. Bhairava

    Bhairava Rookie

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    57-43 or even lower on crosses I'd you think need just a bit of more softness. If you like having a little higher launch angle do 56/43. In fact some trial&error experiment are needed because of:
    spin is a function of firmness of mains and loseness of crosses.
    firmness is a function of both mains and crosses tension.but it is the mean or the two,so is preferred to lower crosses tension.
    power is inverse proportional of overall firmness,but in this setup is preferred to work on crosses to get desired tension.
    finally launch angle is function of differential tension.
    at the end I think the best thing to do is to find main tension that gives you good spin,then lowering crosses until you get right power,softness and launch angle.
     
  10. corners

    corners Legend

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    No, the other guts don't. Moreover, it appears to me that the data above represents artifacts from the testing protocol - in other words, they represent the margin of error of the measurement process. If you compare all the gut strings in the TW database the trend is clearly for higher tensions being stiffer than lower tensions, just as with any other material. But, as opposed to other materials - nylon, polyester - gut becomes only a little stiffer at higher tensions, whereas poly becomes considerably and significantly stiffer.

    But perhaps more importantly, the perpendicular stiffness of gut strings (measured in the lab by string deflection during impact) does increase significantly and considerably at higher tensions as compared to lower tensions. This is why gut at higher tensions provides more control than gut at higher tensions. If it were as you contend - that gut gets less stiff at higher tensions - control would be better at lower tensions.

    For a discussion of longitudinal (the stiffness measurement we have become accustomed to from TWU and RSI) vs. perpendicular (deflection) stiffness, see: http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/deadstrings.php#appendix
     
  11. ricardo

    ricardo Professional

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    Here is a list of all the guts from TW:

    Based on the data below, I conclude that some NG get less stiff at higher tensions and some don't. I don't see a clear indication of a trend in either direction.

    The differences are small and could be due to equipment calibration.
    I agree that it is very hard to be objective in analyzing factual data, but we must try our best.

    1 Armour Pro 16/1.30 Low(40 lbs) 109.7
    3 Armour Pro 16/1.30 High (62 lbs) 106.3

    4 Classic Natural Gut 16 Low (40 lbs) 95.4
    6 Classic Natural Gut 16 High (62 lbs) 90.9

    7 Legend 16 Uncoated Low (40 lbs) 101.7
    9 Legend 16 Uncoated High (62 lbs) 104.0

    10 Natural Gut 16 Low (40 lbs) 99.4
    12 Natural Gut 16 High (62 lbs) 98.3

    13 Natural Gut 17 Low (40 lbs) 89.2
    15 Natural Gut 17 High (62 lbs) 94.9


    16 Prime Natural Gut 16 Low (40 lbs) 85.2
    18 Prime Natural Gut 16 High (62 lbs) 88.6

    19 Prime Natural Gut 16L Low (40 lbs) 90.9
    21 Prime Natural Gut 16L High (62 lbs) 96.0

    22 Tonic + Natural Gut 16 Low (40 lbs) 96.0
    24 Tonic + Natural Gut 16 High (62 lbs) 101.7

    25 Tough Gut 16 Low (40 lbs) 112.0
    27 Tough Gut 16 High (62 lbs) 110.3

    28 Tough Gut 16L Low (40 lbs) 96.0
    30 Tough Gut 16L High (62 lbs) 98.9

    31 VS Natural Team Gut 17 (1.25) Low (40 lbs) 92.6
    33 VS Natural Team Gut 17 (1.25) High (62 lbs) 100.6

    34 VS Natural ThermoGut 16 Touch Low (40 lbs) 98.9
    36 VS Natural ThermoGut 16 Touch High (62 lbs) 101.2
     
  12. Bhairava

    Bhairava Rookie

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    Another thing about your volkl hybrid esp setup. You need a soft string as crosses,while you said this SG is firm.a firm string gives up little stiffness even at low tensions,so it cannot counterbalance mains stiffness properly.

    I told you I was getting out from ESP wagon.I just jumped on it again :D I have cut tb 57lbs/bw 44lbs because it was too much low powered,just after 2hours. Now I was cutting 53/44 tb/bw because too much low powered too,when I realized that all the problems of mine setup comes from bw. So I cut only crosses and I installed a crap pro s pro string,hexaspin. But it I knew it was much more powerful than bw!so, I landed with this setup:
    tour bite 16L with 4 hours of playing at the mains(53lbs)
    pros pro hexaspin 17 fresh at 40lbs
    both NOT prestreched(because with prestrech stiff poly like TB lose elasticity without gaining benefits,while soft poly lose power)

    it is working LIKE A CHARM. It has all the spin of the tb,plus low shot angle,plus powerful -but-not-flying flat &spin shots!!
    main differences between this setup and regular 50/46 fullbed tour bite:
    low launch angle gives me wonderful tight cross forehand while on full,regular tb forehand float a bit too high.
    thanks to the low angle backhand slice and drop shot have pin-point precision, staying LOW as very-low-powered setups(that I love for dropshot and I hate for the general lack of power)
    flat backhand become a powerful shot,but quite similar of fullbed tb.
    kick serves have low-medium power and high spin, while flat serve is high powered.I love it.
    Now I only need to see if performance will go down with time.I can suppose at 8-10hours the TB will lose elasticity,lowering spin,but maybe crosses will counterbalance losing tension and pumping up diff. tension.
    Well,we will see; I don't love extreme ESP that squash a lot my frame(this 13lbs differential is just 2millimeters on ozone tour mp) and if all goes well I will stay with stiff poly/soft poly at medium/very low tensions.
     
  13. brokenRPM

    brokenRPM Rookie

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    i think kevlar is losing its tension too much after the 4th cross string swap. I guess for me that means about 10 to 15 hours of play.
     
  14. Bhairava

    Bhairava Rookie

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    So you mean you just used Always the same kevlar while changing every few hours poly on crosses?
    anyway,what kevlar are you using?1.10mm ashaway?(18g) if so tension maintenance could be improved a lot with 17g or even 16g(but you need a very,very soft cross with that gauge)
     
  15. brokenRPM

    brokenRPM Rookie

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    yes, i used the same kevalr but different sides. 'cause the poly chews up the outter layer so i strung 2x on each side.

    it's a 18g. pre-stretched for a long time. my wrist was hurting bad this morning. i am kind of hesitant to use it now.
     
  16. purple-n-gold

    purple-n-gold Professional

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    Just a follow up on my experience guys with my ESP bed. The biggest differential I have ever tried previously is 4lbs lower in the crosses, for the last year I've been stringing the X's at the same tension as M's in hybrids and fulls.

    I have 3 sticks, one w/ Poly/Gut with @ 8 hrs on it, a new full poly job and finally my own ESP version listed above with @ 4 hrs play. I have foregone the Poly/Gut and full poly bats for my ESP one!

    I was a bit skeptical at first but the amount of easy spin and a nice pocketing stringbed has sold me. The launch angle comes off high at times but not too often, and these balls are still dropping in. I will be keeping at least one racket strung ESP style from now on.
     
  17. alpinenut

    alpinenut New User

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    Third, Fourth, and Fifth Setups

    Third setup, 56/44, good trajectory control, good spin, perfect firmness. You'd think I'd stop there :roll:. Fourth setup 56/44 with Cyclone crosses. Trajectory too high, to soft, lost control. Yes the Cyclone crosses at the same tension as VSG felt much softer (both pre-stretched). Got killed in my ladder match (of course I fully blame the strings). Fifth setup 56/50 with Cyclone setup. Very similar to 56/44 with VSG. A tad more firm but not much. A bit higher trajectory. Tad more spin. More arm pain :cry:. I'm sure I'll try 56/48 or 47 with Cyclone crosses. But really, I should stick with the Third setup, 56/44 with VSG crosses.
     
  18. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

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    Update: I finally cut out the strings on my Blade. It was playing terrifically after 25+ hrs, but kevlar mains were about to break. Noticed that the frame was about 1/16" shorter than relaxed length at it's plateau tension.

    This time, I went with kevlar/ZX at 66/46, both pre-stretched.
    Took me a a couple hours of hitting to get the string-racquet system to stabilize, but after tonight's wall session, I've got it tuned nicely and the ESP performance is sweet as ever.

    I also tuned my shortened POG LB with kevlar/poly at 80/35, both pre-stretched. This one plays nice too, but actually a little too soft for my tastes.
     
  19. Bhairava

    Bhairava Rookie

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    LOL kevlar at 80lbs, too soft...I could imagine!
    Anyway, I've found my best setup too, with ESP poly/poly. Tour bite 16 @ 44lbs mains, any-medium-stiffness-poly at 33lbs on crosses. Now I'm using pro's pro hexaspin. So 44/33 TB/hexaspin. The so low cross tension tender the stringbed enough, like I'm playing with a full bed of TB 18. I can definitely feel ball entering inside the racquet with full swing, very nice dwell.
    And the spin is absurd, with proper stroke I can hit hard as I can and the ball always go down; I can feel clearly a huge snapback of main strings, along with a particular "crack" sound when strongly whipping the ball. Very nice.
    However pro's pro hexaspin goes dead in 4 hours, then I cut it and restring it, and after 8 total hours I cut it all.
    I think with a better cross string(I would imagine something like poly plasma would be perfect) I would do 10 hours on both, maybe even more, but poly lose fast it's elasticity, I don't like playing it at 15 hours usually.
    Plus 11 lbs of differential tension only produce 0.2mm of squashing, thanks to the low overall tension and thanks to the robustness of ozone tour mp. Very nice.
     
  20. brokenRPM

    brokenRPM Rookie

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    Thanks, let me headback to my string machine so I can try this. I am using Forten 18 instead of Ashaway 18 with the ZX. The Forten looks like an inferior product. Fray/notching after 1 hit. Ashaway never did that. But Forten feels pretty good and is cheap.
     
  21. chapmag

    chapmag New User

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    Thicker Kevlar?

    travlerajm,

    Have you tried going to 17 gauge Ashaway Kevlar instead of 18 gauge? I don't hit a heavy ball but I've noticed significant notching in the 18 gauge kevlar after one month with the kevlar/MGZX hybrid.
     
  22. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

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    I notice the same thing. My next reel of kevlar, I will probably go back up to 16g so that I can go several months between stringings.

    The reason I had gone down to 18g was because I had been using poly crosses, so that the 18g kevlar would break before the poly got too soft and unplayable.
     
  23. Bhairava

    Bhairava Rookie

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    travlerajm, I just got my pro's pro pure aramid string! Aka kevlar 1.10mm string ;)
    But I've tried to pre-strech it in any manner - I even pulled it on both sides with a help of a friend, so we have easily provided 100lbs of pulling I suppose. But I didn't get ANY strech, string length seems to be really the same.
    I can suppose this particular kevlar string really do not lose tension....I don't know why.
    When I'll have a TB soft string I'll try 48 kevlar / 44 tb soft as a starting point. I could go up with kevlar tension, but I find that I don't like very very low launch angle.Plus tb soft will lose a lot of tension after 30 mins of playing ;)
     
  24. rst

    rst Rookie

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    as such an astral snoop you should be prosecuted and locked away and tin foil wrapped around your head...permanantly.
     
  25. srimes

    srimes New User

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    Just thought I'd say thanks for this info. I really like the results so far. Didn't have much luck prestretching the Kevlar (mzx was easy), so I strung it as 65/40. Plays great and I don't have to try to figure out if my game is off or the poly strings are dead after a couple matches.
     
  26. corners

    corners Legend

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    Since you now have a stringer, I suspect your days of going several months between stringings are over. :)
     
  27. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    I will definitely try it !!!

    Travel....what I don't understand is why people don't hybrid Kevlar with gut? Is there a reason ? I mean Agassi used a kevlar gut hybrid ( actually he had two mains that were gut ....weird??).

    I found that using the tension the other way around is amazing .....if your way beats mine I'll be ready for the pro tour!
     
  28. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    I cannot understand why everyone keeps hybridimg with synthetic gut??? Synthetic gut is simply cheap Nylon with a fancy name .....it has absolutely zero to do with gut.

    I really think you will get a different experience if you hybrid with gut.....or second choice a Multi......

    I really think string companies should be sued for using the name synthetic gut....it's so misleading .

    Finally did you use a 10 pound string differential ? Travels way is to make the kevlar in the mains tighter .....I have never tried it that way but I make the crosses ten pounds tighter than the mains ( opposite set up ).....and of course I use gut not nylon a.k.a synthetic gut.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
  29. Hmnnn

    Hmnnn New User

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    The potential for durability and performance with this setup has me really intrigued. Would this setup be good with a Prince EXO3 Tour 100? It's one of the more flexy frames, so I'm not sure that it would preform the same with this setup as the stiffer frames. Any suggestions on tensions?
     
  30. spinovic

    spinovic Hall of Fame

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    I think it would be interesting if some of the TW playtesters could try this ESP setup and post some feedback on it. I would love to see what some of them think about it.
     
  31. FlyingAce

    FlyingAce New User

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    Hi all,

    I have tried to ESP on a Gut/Poly hybrid. I've used Pacific Classic and Co-focus. Usualy I used 51/47 or 50/46 and it played great, but a launch angle was a bit of a problem, didn't have confidence when I tried to flatten my shots or to give it mor beef, it was more like spin as you can.
    Than, after reading this thread, I have tried to do ESP with gut/zx with 60/50. Unfortunately it didn't fork. From the start I noticed string movement, which never happened before and on the 3rd hour zx destroyed gut. I guess zx not slippery enough for gut or may be I should have gone with more extreme tension differantial.
    After this I tried ESP with co-focus 60/50 and it kinda worked well. It became easier to flatten shots and spin was good. It worked for 15 hourse with no string movement and almost no gut frying. Than just for the comparison sake a returned to my 51/47 and it I have noticed the difference right away, I lost so much control, I feel like it is almost imposible to flatten my shots. Now I want to try bigger tension difference something like 62/48. Btw i play with blx ps90 leaded to 366 gr.
    Has anyone else tried ESP on gut/poly?
     
  32. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

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    I've put the question to them on the TW Questions forum.
     
  33. chapmag

    chapmag New User

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    ESP (kevlar) in winter

    travlerajm (or anyone):

    I've been using the setup in my signature for 7 months. Instead of 18g I used 16g Kevlar in one of my sticks.

    Both of these stringbeds, especially the 16g Kevlar, feel too harsh now that the temperatures are in the upper 40s to mid 50s F.

    Any suggestions on ESP restringing changes for winter and early spring? I'm thinking about 18g Kevlar and the 16g MGZX both at 2 lbs less.

    Has anyone tried keeping the tension difference high but reducing the tension slightly? I'm a bit leery of the MGZX at 42#. Thanks.
     
  34. jk175d

    jk175d Semi-Pro

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    Through my own trial and error over the last couple of years playing gut/poly I've determined that a wide spread plays best. My rational is to string each type close to its own optimal performance range. For me that means the gut at about 60 and poly at about 40. I think that spread is probably too much but I've worked my way up to about 11 or 12 lbs. last one was 55/43 and is the best feeling string job yet.
     
  35. henman_fan

    henman_fan New User

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    Right, I'm considering giving this a go. Travlerajm, are you still using this? I have some questions on this.

    Will it perform better then a really slippery hybrid at high tension, which should give control and snapback spin?

    How are drop shot's and slices? 63/49 Kevlar/ZX is quite boardy, so I would think feel shots, like a drop shot, are quite difficult.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  36. henman_fan

    henman_fan New User

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    deleted....
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
  37. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Your esp is amazing! I use a Kevlar gut combo and I'm madly in love.

    The problem is that only a small minority of people will see this because of bandwagoning prejudice.

    **** one strange observation about Kevlar. I found a thin guage does bother my arm and somehow is less stable than Kevlar in 15 guage . Quite Frankly even with a gut mix with a Thin guage kevlar my arm did hurt.......I don't understand why?

    The 15 guage on the other hand is perfect! Maybe less vibration? I don't know why? But it plays like butter.....it's actually easy on the arm!! Way better than any poly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
  38. henman_fan

    henman_fan New User

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    Also have you had in improvement in match results or NTRP rating since you used this?

    Would stringing the ESP setup at a higher tension, in an open pattern racket, provide even more spin, with similar control?

    I also have a question from the past. - http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=7789298#post7789298
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  39. spinovic

    spinovic Hall of Fame

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    Has anyone else tried this? Of those who have, do you have any additional thoughts?

    I was selected for the recent Ashaway playtest and got the kevlar/ZX combo. I just strung it up last night at 60/40 (kevlar mains/ZX crosses). Tried to pre-stretch as recommended by tj (it was my first try, so probably could have been more thorough, but should be OK). Pretty excited to try it out and was just wondering if anyone else had any new input.
     
  40. spinovic

    spinovic Hall of Fame

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    So, got to hit against a wall for a bit today and have to say that as far as initial impressions go, I really enjoyed this setup. Wasn't sure what to expect with the Kevlar, but the setup was comfortable.

    It is hard for me to get a real feel for the power and spin until I can get on the court, so I'll withhold any comments there other than to say I think this setup will prove to be solid in both areas at worst.
     
  41. men8ifr

    men8ifr Rookie

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    Are people still using this setup? Any racquet problems?
     
  42. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    I was playing with my 15 guage gamma and 17 guage gut hybrid and things were pretty great . I still have not had to change strings and the racquet plays the same everyday .

    But then something even greater happened.

    I had an older string job that had been laying in my bag . It was strung with ashaway 18 guage kevlar and 17 guage gut......

    I mistakenly took this stick out and OMG ....I have never in my life played this well !!!

    The Ashaways must have lost an incredible amount of tension and they played sooooooo much better . I can't believe it !!!

    I did not like this string job at all when it was first put in but now that it's settled down it's my favorite all time set up .....even better than a fresh set of poly .

    I'm having the best tennis summer of my life !

    If you read my previous post you will see that I hated the 18 guage kevlar and I had elbow pain.....but the looser this stuff is the better it gets. It's made all the difference in my game !

    I was scared to sign up for the singles tournemt at my club but after hitting this well I quickly put my name down !
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2014
  43. men8ifr

    men8ifr Rookie

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    What is the spin like with the lower tension? Have you used raquettune what does it say the overall tension is?
     
  44. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

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    Kevlar/gut served agassi pretty well in his prime years, when he was using dense pattern OS with 20x21 dense string pattern. Less spin than an unlocked stringbed like poly, but definitely more precision on launch angle. For me, control of launch angle correlates better with overall match performance than spin level.
     
  45. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    I don't understand why the low tension works for me .....but it just does.

    I LOVE LOVE mixing Kevlar with gut.

    Did you try it ? I don't really understand why most people mix kevlar with synthetic?

    I don't think it's the Money because a half set of gut costs about $12.00 and when it's in the crosses it doesn't really break.......so why use synthetic when can use the real thing?
     
  46. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    I don't know if it's more spin but the ball just seem to pop with a hook that I can actually see in the air......maybe it's a "snap back" action like in the Wilson spin series?

    I don't really know the science behind it but I know I love it.

    Racquet tune says its a 37 pounds.
     
  47. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Legend

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    Further update ....

    I must say this ashaway kevlar and gut is the absolute greatest set up I've ever had.

    But the caveat is that it doesn't play well at the beginning .

    The ashaway loses a great deal of tension and that's when it plays the best !!!

    I had strung both strings at 55....but gut holds it's tension better than anything whereas the ashaway kevlar lost a ton of tension ....I would not be surprised if it's at 35.....

    So I'm not sure what I should do in the future to replicate this . I could just string it that way again and leave the stick I'm my bag for a couple of months until the tension drops......

    But I think the best alternative is to string the ashaway at 45 and the guy at 55?
     
  48. allenkau

    allenkau Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Messages:
    127
    I string my POG100 with Pacific Classic 16 / CoFocus 18 @ 60/53.
    I will try to go 60/50 next time.
     
  49. tennisgotomarket

    tennisgotomarket Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2013
    Messages:
    166
    thanks, this is so so true and valuable.
     
  50. Shroud

    Shroud Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2013
    Messages:
    3,350
    Location:
    Bay Area
    personally I would up the kevlar and string the gut a bit lower. and FWIW kevlar at 35 is still a stiff string bed.
     

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