I Keep Trying to like Mixed, but just can't

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by JackB1, Jun 11, 2013.

  1. AtomicForehand

    AtomicForehand Hall of Fame

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    I am rather, yes...but you don't seem to be (?)...

    And you're right--that guy looks closer to 340 to me.
     
  2. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    It would be something that I personally would love to see, not least because it makes life more interesting, and the way USTA mixed allows for massive NTRP level discrepancies between players is pretty stupid.

    But I can't see it ever happening.

    - Lots of women would be put off from joining a unisex league
    - It would require additional resource and organisation to create additional league tiers / unisex competitions etc
    - It would highlight disparities and differences between the mens and womens games
    - Then you get into what happens when you get to higher competitive levels when the genders inevitably split, and whether unisex leagues are good preparation for that.
    - Obviously, there an issue of whether your concentration would affected by having an ultra attractive, incredibly fit, tanned woman in a short skirt on the other of the net. Gives a new meaning to the word 'sport' ;-)

    That said, I don't see any reason why you couldn't have a unisex league at the lower levels but I can see alot of resistance even to that from the tennis 'establishment'. There was a woman at my club who wanted to join the club internal mens league for a bit more competition but they 'suggested' to her that it wasn't a good idea even though I think she could have held her own in the men's league.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  3. AtomicForehand

    AtomicForehand Hall of Fame

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    Come on, Torres. You disappoint me. Don't make me cancel your visa.

    First, why would women be put off from playing with men? I can't think of any women in my tennis network who would feel that way. It is conceivable that a few might, but there is very little work setting up women-only, men-only, and mixed leagues. So your administrative excuses seem weak to me.

    As far as highlighting disparities between women and men, so what? If you're truly competitive at a certain level, it doesn't matter if one sex's overhead *tends* to be better on average, or one *tends* to be more consistent than another, or what have you. People are people anyway, and have individual variation in their games as it is. Some people are great servers. Some are pusher-types. Some are spin doctors. This will be true for both men and women who are competing at the *same level*.

    It does seem to me that the higher you go, the fewer women there will be. Again--so what? It's good for both sexes to play against each other if they want to--makes them both better-rounded players all the way up the ladder.

    As far as "resistance from the establishment"--sounds like another name for sexism to me.
     
  4. AtomicForehand

    AtomicForehand Hall of Fame

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    Was it really a good idea to go back and add that line?

    :evil:
     
  5. Baxter

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    My mom lives in Roswell and I visit her at least once a year.

    Now, back to the new UTL (Unisex Tennis League of course!). I agree with all of your comments. I don't think it would work past 4.0 (men's rating system) in most areas, as 4.5/5.0 women are not very common and there are tons of 4.0 men everywhere. 3.5 would be perfect. But even if most teams were mostly male, it would still be fun. I think tennis is the perfect sport for this concept. The whole current mixed doubles setup seems so quaint and dated.
     
  6. Overdrive

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    At least once a year?!

    The lack of good female players is pretty sad.
     
  7. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Oh, there are a lot of women who are put off playing with men.

    At the lower levels, some women are quite worried that the guys have more power than control. This can lead to injury.

    At the higher level (ladies 4.0+), I have noticed that some of my peers have sworn off of mixed entirely.

    Some simply don't enjoy it. Others have limited time and money for tennis and can get enough league play on the ladies side. Others cannot find a team because there are more women than men who are interested in mixed.

    And some have said they have suffered at the hands of Breakpoint and aren't interested in the non-stop critiques. :)

    I think the main reason, though, is that most league tennis players are not all that committed to improving. If you are a 4.0 woman and cannot handle the pace on the guy's serve and don't like your own weak serve smoked back at you, mixed is no fun. You could decide to improve, or you could bail.

    Many bail.
     
  8. OrangePower

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    I would be completely for unified ratings between men and women, and a unified, gender-neutral league.

    Unfortunately though I don't think it would work at the lower (beginner) levels. Because I think guys just starting to play are both bad and dangerous, whereas the gals are just bad. Meaning, the guys are going to be inherently more powerful and even beginner guys are capable of hitting with a lot of pace now and then when they hit the sweetspot... but mostly it gets sprayed all over the place. Whereas the women tend to be more controlled from the get go but it's all powder-puff until they learn better technique.

    If we did have a unified system, I would make an exception for the lower levels. I would have 2.5 and 3.0 women-only (where the 3.0 is the same level as today's 3.0 ladies), and then 3.0 men-only (equivalent to today's 2.5 - low 3.0 men). And then have it combined from 3.5 up.
     
  9. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    Whoa there Nellie! Don't shoot the messenger....

    I used to go hitting with an ex-ITF woman who even now apart from her serve has a pretty comparable game to a 5.0 man. Even now I occasionally drop into the drill sessions of the top 15/16 y/o girl juniors at my club as their coach plays on my team. Absolutely rock solid ground games. You'll never hear me disparage the tennis abilities of women players. As I said in a previous post, you get good male players, terrible male players, good women players, terrible women players...

    As for the other points I make, that's just reality.

    1. A lot of women don't like playing singles. Even less so against men. The exception would be a higher level woman player. Range of situations obviously but what about the situation where a lone woman has to meet some random dude in a park somewhere in the evening for a league match?
    2. If you implement unisex leagues/tournaments, you do realise how the results are going to pan out don't you?
    3. Resistance from the 'establishment'. I don't like it but its probably in part due to 1 and 2 above, and that upper levels are split along gender lines. That and a bit of closed mindedness.

    It's true though. The hotter she is, the more likely its going to cost me a few games.... ;-)
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  10. Torres

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    You make a good point. Maybe unisex should be an aggregation of the middling levels. 3.5 man / 4.0 woman, 4.0 man / 4.5 woman etc. USTA would need to introduce a unisex rating system though.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  11. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    Has anyone here play with any girl that look like sharapova or Ivanovic ?
     
  12. RetroSpin

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    That would pretty much be my minimum cutoff.
     
  13. IA-SteveB

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    Nope but I have played against plenty of Bartoli's.
     
  14. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    What about you?
     
  15. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    No, but I've played against someone called Fedace though. He was useless.
     
  16. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    No, but I've played against someone called Fedace though. He was useless.
     
  17. struggle

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    yes, better actually and she was young, polite and kicked my *** (mixed).
    due to shoulder issues (never supposed to play again?)
    she served underhand and still did just fine.

    she's also a model and in law school.
     
  18. Overdrive

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    What is that supposed to mean?
     
  19. Torres

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    The OP lives in Atlanta.

    Would be a great opportunity to put to the test his theory that men are always the stronger player in dubs and you would also be the pioneer of this wave of unisex tennis singles. How about a friendly 1v1 singles match, with you playing the OP? i genuinely do think that it would be exciting, or at the very least, interesting. And you have the added incentive of his condescending comments in his first post to motivate you.

    My money would be on you to to win, so don't let me down Forehand!! :)

    (If you setup a webcam on the side of the court, I'll even offer some 'in between' points coaching ;-) )
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  20. heninfan99

    heninfan99 Legend

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    Never had a problem with the women only the guy that blasts & head hunts at the women to get a point.

    If the other team is really bad I just work on my second serves and slice shots.
     
  21. Baxter

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    Yes, frequently, but she's my daughter and she's fourteen. She's 5'9" and 130 lbs. and looks a little like Sharapova and is named Mary so that's who she looks up to. She's really into the outfits, has a flat forehand and a problematic serve so she's got Maria's game down.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  22. The Isomotion31

    The Isomotion31 Semi-Pro

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    Got my first mixed match this coming weekend(team captain asked a friend and I to join as the men have been succumbing to injury). I hope the opponent is hot.
     
  23. dizzlmcwizzl

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    My personal observation is that your best bet for hotness is at the extremes ..... 6.0 and 10.0. Either they have started playing tennis because they like the outfits or they are fresh out of a division I tennis program.

    7.0-9.0 is filled with people like me ... fat, old, bald and with enough experience to compensate for a lack of actual tennis ability.
     
  24. OrangePower

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    Yeah, and that's just the women! ;-)
     
  25. AtomicForehand

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    Thanks for dooshbagging this thread right down. How would all you swashbuckling Federer clones like it if all we women talked about was how lame and laughable your games are and how you'd better be hot to make it worthwhile to play with you? Ho ho! Chortle!

    Seriously, men disgust me at times. Act like human beings, please.
     
  26. AtomicForehand

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    Hey, cool. Next time you're in town, let me know and we'll get something going!

    Doesn't matter if there are fewer women at the top. It just would give these high-level women more options to play, actually, since there are so relatively few other women at their level. No one would force the men to join the mixed league if they prefer the company of other men.

    I agree that tennis is the perfect sport for this concept. Although men do tend to have relatively greater speed and strength, good tennis is about other things as well, and less strong opponents can make up for this in other areas until you get to the very top of the game.
     
  27. AtomicForehand

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    This is true. I was this type of player myself when I started--hitting bullets (with my Atomic Forehand, of course) that sometimes hit, or threatened to hit, my opponents. I became somewhat unpopular for a while until I learned better.

    If noob men were playing with women, they might learn to dial it back and get some control a little sooner (?).
     
  28. AtomicForehand

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    The OP sounds like he might play at a lower level than I do.
     
  29. Torres

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    LOL. We have so got to team up as a dubs pair. I like a partner with a bit of fire in her belly. :mrgreen:

    I think you'd smoke him.....but blue skies, sunny day, what could be nicer than a game of tennis against a fellow TT'er? ;-)

    I'll even chip in towards a prize fund for the winner.

    (I'd be happy to play him as well in a 1v1 singles though I'm not sure what point it would prove....)
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2013
  30. OrangePower

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    Not likely. Add to it that a noob man would typically beat a noob woman handily (a generalization, but true based on physicality), and you pretty much have to have separate men and women leagues at the lowest levels.

    From the equivalent of women 3.5 / male high 3.0 and up though, no tennis reason to keep the genders separate.
     
  31. AtomicForehand

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    You're still thinking about it wrong then.

    If the noob man could beat the noob woman handily, they wouldn't be at the same level, would they? This has nothing to do with how long a person has been playing ("noobness"). It has to do with skill.

    The whole POINT is to have competitive play at each level.

    If that means that at the very lowest beginner level there are more women than men, so what? As we've already discussed, there are going to be more men than women at the very highest level. Yes, there's plenty more overlap in the middle, but it doesn't mean that the idea doesn't also work for the ends of the spectrum.

    Also, when I started playing tennis at 2.5 I played in mixed leagues, and believe me, there were plenty of guys even crappier than me at that level. Don't overestimate your sex.
     
  32. AtomicForehand

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    It could happen, Torres, but you'd have to fly over from wherever you live to watch my victory and give me my prize in person.
     
  33. OrangePower

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    You would be correct if there were some objective way to rate noobs. In that case, yes, most noob women would be started at gender-neutral level 0, and most noob men would be started at gender-neutral level 1... and there would be some counter-examples also.

    However there is no objective noob rating, since they have not actually played anyone yet. And so the reality is that all noobs both male and female would just join level 0. Which I think would not be good for either the men or the level 0 women.

    However once they have played in the gender-specific lower levels long enough to establish an objective rating, then yes, they can move up to the appropriate level gender-neutral league.

    This has nothing to do with over- or under-estimating either sex, but with the reality that on average the noob male has an advantage over the noob female based purely on physicality. Once a player learns some technique, then skill and technique can overcome the physicality advantage. But noobs are not known for their technique.
     
  34. The Isomotion31

    The Isomotion31 Semi-Pro

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    Sadness.....
     
  35. Baxter

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    Now that Atomic has so eloquently overcome all objections to the new UTL, it's time to start some grass roots organizing. Making Unisex Tennis part of the USTA seems out of the question at this point, so I guess the UTL will have to stand on its own. Should we start placing ads in our local Craigs List to get the ball rolling?
     
  36. AtomicForehand

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    I think we should pressure the USTA to develop a universal NTRP that applies across the board to all ages and both sexes.

    Then unisex tennis leagues will be a natural development from there.

    Craigslists ads = too creepy. As another poaster mentioned, what girl/woman is going to want to meet a strange man for a singles match in an isolated location? That is asking for the Castro treatment or worse.

    (Funny how we never worry about the guy's safety in these scenarios though.)
     
  37. OrangePower

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    I'm a 200lb man, and believe me there are places / times where I would not agree to meet a strange person for a match, whether it's a woman or a man.
     
  38. AtomicForehand

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    Fair enough. :) I meant, however, that trying to set up unisex matches via Craigslist seems overwhelmingly dangerous for the woman. But maybe Craigslist matches aren't good ideas for anybody given certain conditions!
     
  39. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    It would be my pleasure, but a million miles is a long way to travel so....

    (1) I would have to roll the trip into a mixed dubs match with the 'Thou Shall Not Say Anything to Their Pardner Unless Its Good Shot' brigade *cough* Cindy *cough* Retrospin -v- me and you (so that I can see whether you self-combust)

    (2) I'd also have to have 1v1 with the OP since he lives in the area as you.

    (3) I'd need some confirmation that there's something interesting to do / sights to see etc in Atlanta.

    (4) Somebody's going to have chip in towards my hotel/travelling expenses.

    Otherwise I'm going to have to admire your tennis talents from afar :-( (or via volleycam).
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  40. Torres

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    Hey OP JackB1 - are you willing to have a 1v1 singles match against Atomic? It's necessary to test out your 'women are always the weaker player in mixed dubs' theory. I'm taking offense at your comment on behalf of Atomic.

    She would would prefer the match to take place somewhere other than a random park somewhere and during daylight hours. You'll also have to prove that your surname isn't Castro. Don't be concerned by the SWAT team we have around the court. It is to ensure the safety of all participants concerned including yourself (Atomic's emotions can sometimes get the better of her and we cannot predict what she might do to you if she should fall behind in the match).

    After she's softened you up a bit, you're then going to have a 1v1 match against me :mrgreen:

    And you're going to have to chip in towards my hotel/travelling expenses :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2013
  41. AtomicForehand

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    A million miles? Four times farther away than the moon. You've got me stumped, then, as to where you're posting from.

    Where does Retrospin live? Cindy is about a twelve-hour drive from me. And I told you, I never self-destruct. The computer keeps humming away until the last point is won.

    Nope...nuthin'. Sorry. The tennis is good though.

    You could take up a collection. If you promised to post video, someone might bankroll you.

    It's definitely wiser to admire me from afar. You don't want to get in over your head...
     
  42. GlennK

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    Actually, everyone should be weary of meetting anyone using Craigslist even if the area seems safe. We had a guy locally posting a bogus job offer and then killing three guys that came for the job. Although the location was rural (the job was caretaker of a farm), it wouldn't be considered a high crime area.

    Here's a link to the story of his sentencing: http://www.cantonrep.com/news/x171172131/Beasley-sentenced-to-death-for-Craigslist-killings
     
  43. AtomicForehand

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    Yes, I heard about that!!!
     
  44. goober

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    Well I don't think meeting people off craigslist for tennis is more dangerous than meeting people off any other type of website- i.e. tennis meetup or tennisopolis. If you are going to meet a stranger at a court. I would just meet at a public or private tennis center that you are familiar with and you know there will be lots of people around. I would skip private or community type courts especially at night.
     
  45. RetroSpin

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    Torres, I can see through your pathetic attempt to watch me in action and learn the secret of being the Cary Grant of mixed doubles. Without my chiseled body and movie star looks, it's probably hopeless in any case.
     
  46. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    Well, my tennis talents are from another planet...

    I think I might need just a bit more incentive...

    Springsteen live or on YouTube? Exactly.
     
  47. Torres

    Torres Banned

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    Retrospin and Cindy?

    [​IMG]


    I had a mental image more along the lines of the following ;-)

    Retrospin and Cindy

    [​IMG]
     
  48. AtomicForehand

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    No, I meant if you promised to post video of your Stateside tennis exploits, someone might find that incentive enough to defray your costs.

    As for Atlanta...it is a cultureless wasteland. It's very pretty to look at, and it's convenient to shop when you want to acquire possessions and to find an excellent restaurant when you want to eat out--but there is nothing to do otherwise. Why do you think I took up tennis? That's about all we've got here. Don't ask me why they put the world's largest saltwater aquarium in Atlanta, a landlocked city five hours from the ocean.

    As for where you are located--you sound like an ex-pat American. Could I possibly be right?
     
  49. AtomicForehand

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    Ah, the assumptions. [grinning hugely]
     
  50. Baxter

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    Last edited: Aug 26, 2013

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