I know we've talked about this before, but.......

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by michael_1265, Aug 14, 2011.

  1. michael_1265

    michael_1265 Professional

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    Okay, the record below is from the year 2000 for a player who just played as a 4.0 self-rate in the Mid-Atlantic sectionals.

    WIN - LOSS (Main Draw)

    Career Doubles (Tour Level Only) 6 1
    Career Singles (including ITF Pro Circuits) 1 3
    Career Doubles (incl. ITF Pro Circuits) 7 3

    Seriously, am I missing something here??????? She had a junior world ranking of 477 in doubles and 577 in singles.

    Many 4.0s in this neck of the woods have no formal tennis experience, a bum knee, and are 45 or older. The must be an Upgraded, Special-Deluxe 4.0.

    Or maybe she's an amputee and plays with two prosthetic legs. That would explain the discrepancy.
     
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  2. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    not necessary. if this is her first time playing she is allowed to self rate. maybe she thinks shes 4.0
     
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  3. esgee48

    esgee48 Hall of Fame

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    She wasn't a top 200 during that time (year 2000) so I doubt she was a 4.5 or higher. I assume when you said ITF, you meant when she was playing junior tournaments. If she was in the top 100, then you have reasons to complain, perhaps. It's now 11 years later and she can rate herself at 4.0 if that's where she thinks she belongs. If she played for a D1-D3 college team, then it's a different issue.
     
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  4. jdubbs

    jdubbs Hall of Fame

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    Junior world ranking isn't the same as a pro tour ranking. She starts at 4.0 aftr a long layoff. Seems ok to me.
     
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  5. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    i dunno, the kids who play the junior tour are often the ones who don't bother with College tennis cos they plan a pro career.

    Not too many ex College players do anything much on the tour, do they?

    How do you think she would go with Cindy, to give a reasonable example? No offence to Ms Sphinx, but any of the 14 - 15 yr old competitive juniors around here would double bagel her in about 20 minutes.

    4.0?? Not a chance!
     
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  6. springfieldalum

    springfieldalum New User

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    Yes, she is not a 4.0. How did she do in the regular season? Many of the women lose games to keep matches closer so they don't get bumped up. If she did well, hopefully she will be bumped 4.0. Women's 4.0 doesn't get players like that.
     
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  7. michael_1265

    michael_1265 Professional

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    They used her in doubles twice, and that was it during the regular season.
     
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  8. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Call Darcy Cobb @ 1-800-NTRP-SCAM
     
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  9. michael_1265

    michael_1265 Professional

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    To clarify, this is off of the Womens' Circuit ITF web page. The Junior page is separate.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    I can't see as there would possibly be any ambiguity in this situation, unless I am reading the record incorrectly or out of context.
     
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  10. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

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    this is a clear self-rate cheat, playing pro tour and then self-rate to 4.0, is she afraid of competition or something or let me guess she has not picked-up a racket in 10 years. She should be minimum 5.0 and maybe appeal for 4.5
     
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  11. Angle Queen

    Angle Queen Professional

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    I think, Michael, that "ITF" "Tour Level" 6-1 record is from her Fed Cup play. Not exactly "pro" tour...but still...there's no way she's still just a 4.0 at age 28. I'd love to know how Section Officials responded to any grievances filed.

    This is one of those cases where you'd love to see the self-rate questionnaire and what her answers were. Maybe that'd be a way to provide some more transparency to the debate over whether self-rates should be allowed to participate in playoffs. Make their answers public...and if an aggrieved team wants to do USTA's homework...then let them do the digging to contradict/dispute the "facts." As more and more data/history appears online, it should get harder and harder to hide from the truth.
     
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  12. maggmaster

    maggmaster Hall of Fame

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    This is a self correcting issue though right? She will rate up and be a 4.5?
     
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  13. Clay lover

    Clay lover Hall of Fame

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    She may well be just a temporary mercenary for this particular team and not a regular amateur league player, methinks.
     
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  14. michael_1265

    michael_1265 Professional

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    And she will probably be underrated at 4.5, also. A neighbor of mine is on a team that just played this girl's team in the sectionals. My neighbor is currently a 4.0, but will definitely be a 4.5 next year. Her teammate, who plays even with her, ended up being matched against the girl. Both sets, the girl went up 4-0, let her have a couple of games, and then finished it. The impression I got was that it was just a walk in the park for her.

    The USTA, by the way, denied the grievance, citing the "guidelines" wording.

    This is something that needs to be fixed, if the USTA wants to maintain the integrity of its system. I assume that there is some integrity left. Maybe it is ridiculous to have nationals at any level other than Open.
     
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  15. michael_1265

    michael_1265 Professional

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    From what I understand, that team is full of mercenaries. For what it's worth, my friend's team is also a bunch of "all stars" selected from a medium-sized metro area. I guess it's hard to get into the playoffs otherwise. Sad.
     
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  16. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Huh? What did I do to get dragged into this thread and then double-bageled?
     
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  17. michael_1265

    michael_1265 Professional

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    Well, she's in your general area.................but yeah, the double bagel assumption was a little unfair.
     
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  18. michael_1265

    michael_1265 Professional

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    Edited to remove double post
     
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  19. jdubbs

    jdubbs Hall of Fame

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    Breadsticks would be more accurate. Either way, she would crush not only Cindy, but also crush me, as a male 4.0. I played a top junior girl, there is just no way to hit a winner against them if you're a typical 4.0.

    Still, let her play 4.0, if she does well enough she'll move up. So you get to play a really good opponent, learn something. Nothing wrong with that.
     
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  20. goober

    goober Legend

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    Called Darcy. She told me there is no scam, that everything is on the up and up, nothing to see here, move along. She offered me a free US Open backpack with a 5 year membership renewal. Oh she told me to have a nice day. Such a nice lady this Darcy...
     
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  21. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    She wouldn't double-bagel me. No way.

    I would retire at 0-6, 0-5.
     
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  22. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    When elite players sandbag at lower levels, it skews the ratings for their opponents. Players get pushed into lower levels and the end result was the huge number of mass bump-ups a couple years ago as a brute force system correction.
     
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  23. michael_1265

    michael_1265 Professional

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    At the match level, yes, it is no problem. But if your goal is to do well post-season, and you want to do it legitimately, stuff like this really takes the fun out. I am speaking in theory because I have never even sniffed the playoffs.
     
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  24. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    Oh, I'm sorry Cindy! I picked on you because I figured A) most people read your posts (I do) and have a fair idea how you play and B) You are a top chick and would be thick skinned enough to take it!

    I'm sorry, though, I coach a couple of top 16s Junior girls and I can only just handle them! (I'm around 5.0 - 5.5)

    The double bagel is a given, I'm afraid...

    There is NO WAY this girl should be playing anything under 5.0
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2011
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  25. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Ha! You forgot to mention how bad I am at singles! :)
     
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  26. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    that was my attempt at, erm, diplomacy...
     
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  27. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    LOL! Thanks for the laugh. Arlen Kantarian and his $9 mil money grab is their idea of integrity.

    This case is pathetic.

    Tennis has Collateral Damage, just like War. :)

    What's Joel Dali say? "Tennis isn't Life. It's much more important than that."
     
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  28. michael_1265

    michael_1265 Professional

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    Just FYI, her team did not advance to nationals. Her captain, I guess, decided that the team could win the last match without her, maybe trying to preserve her 4.0 status for the nationals. Bad decision.
     
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  29. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Dad has cheesy golfing type artwork hanging in his Stripper Villa in Spanish Trail.

    In the guest bathroom is the immortal one...

    "Golf is not a matter of life or death, it is much more important than that..."
     
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  30. michael_1265

    michael_1265 Professional

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    I am stunned how good these kids are at this age. I realize that girls mature earlier than boys. How do you think you would fare against a boy of the same level?
     
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  31. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    I can beat my 15 year old nationally ranked son, but only barely and it won't be long...

    Even then, I can no longer out hit him, instead I keep it low to his 2hbh and close the net. It won't work forever!
     
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  32. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    C'mon people, Cindy would lose 3-6, 6-4, 6-0. No one who self rates 4 levels too low doesn't know how to manage scores, too.
     
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  33. michael_1265

    michael_1265 Professional

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    There has definitely been a change in how kids train, and how early they get good. If it were 30 years ago, can you imagine a 15-year-old challenging someone at your level?
     
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  34. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    No, I can't. I was a decent junior but I was no threat to my mid 40s coach at the time.

    Modern stroke mechanics are a big factor, they play with great freedom cos the heavy topspin keeps the ball in play. Also, the players they look to (Rafa, Djoker, Fed) play spectacular tennis that we had never seen.
     
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  35. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    That's impressive you can still hang with him. Sounds like you need to find him a girlfriend! :)
     
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  36. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    This is a really good case of taking numbers from the internet and making assumptions without knowing anything about the player or the team.

    A grievance was filed. It was denied. I think you probably already know that though! ;)

    When the captain took that player on, she emailed the section office and asked, point blank, what her self-rate options were. They replied that she could self-rate AS LOW AS A 3.5. Yup. You read that right.

    The captain kept that email, and that is the reason the grievance was denied. There was no funny business here.

    (AQ, please don't interpret the caps as yelling. More surprise...I was surprised that they allowed the 4.0, but when I was told they said 3.5...I wondered if someone was smoking something!)

    My understanding was that yes...it was because it was junior results.

    If you look at her league record, and even at sectionals, she hardly dominated. She even lost at dubs to two NOVA people I have known for years.

    LOL! Mercenaries?

    I regularly practice with one of those women. She's no mercenary. I played one of the singles players last year at 3.5. We timed out.

    They are a great group of ladies who work hard on their tennis. They were points from not making it out of playoffs.

    Where are you getting your information? From the team that filed the grievance?

    No lie Cindy...one of our singles gals had her opponent (someone I played before!) retire at 3-9 in the match TB. Pathetic.

    I was at that match. I was watching the final match TB that decided who went. No, they weren't trying to preserve anything. At that point the grievance had already been denied. They played their hearts out, just like anyone else, and were horribly disappointed to have lost like that.
     
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  37. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    Actually she played three times. In doubles. And two of those timed out, which means it was close.

    She played in the playoffs, once at dubs and once in singles. Her dubs match...timed out. Her singles match...timed out. I know the opponent...a strong 4.0 singles player.

    And she played three times (out of five matches) at sectionals. One doubles match, which she lost. And two singles matches, both won with competitive scores.
     
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  38. maggmaster

    maggmaster Hall of Fame

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    Nice....good to know. I wonder why her level dropped so far? Or is 4.0 tennis really that cranked up by you guys?
     
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  39. Angle Queen

    Angle Queen Professional

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    Moi! Accuse someone of yelling? NEVER! :p

    And you're right, I did know a grievance had been filed but was trying to keep things generic enough for general discussion. The section officials' reply/response has me (near) speechless. Junior results or not...Fed Cup/International play just simply cannot be USTA NTRP 4.0. Then again, we're talking Fed Cup. :rolleyes: And just where is the USA these days? World Group? Relegation? Maybe USTA needs to pluck the 4.5W National Champs as our next team. Or maybe Serena really will play. LOL.

    Still. What a debacle.

    Ok. But we all know that there's losing and then there's Losing.

    You got a treat. I did hear that the entire match for all five lines were thrillers. That's the good stuff and what it's supposed to be about. Too bad other things cloud the rest of the event.

    But it certainly raises the issue...again...of whether self-rates should be allowed to participate in playoffs...at all.
     
    #39
  40. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    This is wandering a bit off topic, but let me raise it anyway.

    For 3.5 ladies, sectionals was changed from what was done in the past. Sectionals used to be the top team from DC, WV, VA and MD. Round robin, winner goes to nationals. So you play three matches.

    This year, it was VA, VA, MD, MD, WV and DC. So that's six teams in round robin, with each team playing five matches over three days in the Virginia heat.

    Had my team advanced to sectionals, some of my players would probably have dropped dead on the court. The roster limit is 20. With injuries and vacations, far fewer players could have traveled to sectionals. If you have to play 10 important singles matches in three days, singles players would likely have to double up.

    There is no way we had the depth at singles to manage it, so I guess it is good that we didn't go.

    I don't know if the change is a good thing. If I were putting together a competitive team, I would feel like I needed a bare minimum of five top-notch singles players on the roster. Which is an impossible task, IMHO.
     
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  41. goober

    goober Legend

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    I don't understand, did the section office have all her information when they said she could rate 3.5? A guy in the southern section was moved from 4.0 to 6.0 when it was learned he previously played Davis Cup. How is this different?

    I don't see how a 28 year old who played on basically a professional level could be such a weak player in recreational leagues unless she is a) dogging her matches or b) had some type of serious physical injury or problem that has developed in the interim. Even if she were playing for a 3rd world country Fed cup represents the best players in that country and anyone who has a 6-1 record in Fed cup could not worse than 6.0-6.5 regardless of what country they were playing.
     
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  42. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Oh, and congratulations go out to Topaz for getting the job done at sectionals! Woo hoo!
     
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  43. Topaz

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    She played ~junior~ Fed Cup...in her country, which is not the United States.

    Thanks for the shout out Cindy. Yes, it was bloody hot but we knee it would be because we play districts at the same location. I, personally, played four matches, three at singles and one at dubs. I only doubled up on one day (dubs and singles in the same day) but it was the LAST day too. Needless to say, I was exhausted after that last match, which, oddly enough, was also my only win!

    I liked having five matches instead of three though. There was so much to watch, too, even when you weren't playing. We had three 'designated' singles players but each of us also took a turn at dubs too. We weren't really low on people until Monday, when many had to return to work. Availability is always going to be an issue no matter how many matches are scheduled.
     
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  44. Topaz

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    And yes, the section had her information...the captain was straight up and honest and sent the email to see where that player could rate. This was all done before the regular season even started.

    Didn't Michael actually post her junior ranking? Wasn't it around 500? And again, not the US.
     
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  45. goober

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    Well Michael was the one who said it was womens not juniors.

    Also although a top 500 ITF junior ranking may not sound impressive to you, it is an international ranking which is much more difficult ranking to achieve.
    For example the current 485 ranked ITF junior who is from America is Maxx Lipman. He has been ranked has high as number 1 in USTA boys 16 National rankings. I would say a junior ITF ranking is top 500 is more difficult to achieve than a top 150 USTA national ranking (which is suppose to rate 5.5 according the experienced player guidelines). Obviously this Maxx player will likely move up in the rankings before he is done with juniors, but I would say it does show just because it is not a "US " ranking, it doesn't mean it is meaningless.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2011
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  46. Angle Queen

    Angle Queen Professional

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    Are you sure it was "junior" Fed Cup? The ITF site has her as playing as recently as 2001. She was 18. And one of her partners was...26. Definitely not a junior. Best I can find on the 'net is that Junior Fed Cup is for those 16 and under.

    Indeed, Topaz. It should have been noted here on the main board that you (as well as a few others...Chris!) made it to Sectionals as well. It is an exhausting venture regardless of how you look at it. The environmental conditions alone make it tough. Then, there's the actual competition. :p Good on you for making it there and doing as well as you did. :)
     
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  47. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    That's what I was told...I'm checking on it! ;)

    And thanks! And...check your email...I wrote you about MY matches, too! I can't believe how well Chris's team did...they pretty much annihilated EVERYONE. (<--I'm totally shouting there.) His captain was on my 8.0 mixed team and just a super nice guy.

    I also saw a guy get threatened to get thrown off of the 'premises' because he was swearing at an official!

    And don't get me started on the officiating! It was horrible! My first opponent was a foot fault factory, and instead of actually calling her on it, the official gently showed her what she was doing wrong during one of our changovers! Really? I mean, I lost 6 and 5...I could've used a few foot fault calls! Grrrr!
     
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  48. Topaz

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    He also said she only played two dubs matches during the regular season, and she played three.
     
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  49. michael_1265

    michael_1265 Professional

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    This is not a partisan shellacking of a team from another area. It was not meant to be that way at least, and I apologize if it came out that way. The teams that make it through from our area are also filled with those who should probably have rated higher.

    There is always the pain of those who have worked hard to get to the playoffs, and I don't think a bad self-rate reflects badly on the individual team members, but I find it ludicrous that anyone could imagine a player who played professional tennis, and had a world ranking, could be a 4.0 only ten years from her playing prime. Are you really saying that there is a possibility that she is rated correctly?

    There are a lot of average players out there, like myself, who spend the time and effort to get better, and start correctly rated. Some nice match wins and a very occasional chance at making districts are all we ask. Then someone drops in out of the blue, with tennis experience that would indicate a higher level, and proceeds to dominate a level they clearly do not belong in. The inaction of the USTA is not indicator of anything other than apathy. League tennis is a cash cow for the USTA, but the less involvement required, the better.

    Over the past three years, as a USTA Captain, I hit with three different players with an opportunity to have each on my team, and I decided in all three cases to recommend they play at a level higher. Why? I certainly could have picked them up, and hidden them in doubles until I needed them. It was in their best interests to play at the highest level dictated by their abilities. It was also in the spirit of fair play.

    NTRP-based competition is supposed to be about finding the best fit, not what you can get away with.

    The team from our district that is going to nationals is hand-picked from a number of locations in our metro area. The running joke is that you don't need the USTA to know that you are underrated; if the phone rings and it is *** **** (that team), you are underrated.

    A few years ago, I showed up at an away mixed match early, and none of the other players from my team were there. The opposing team (another "all star" team) welcomed me, and I took a seat to wait near the courts. The other team was involved in a discussion about getting new players, and the bulk of the conversation went like this: "He played in college; can we let him rate 3.5?" "Yeah, he's fine; it's not like he was Division I. Just tell him to not mention it when he self-rates", and so on. They didn't seem to be hiding it from me, making me think it was business as usual. That
    is the problem. The goal for some teams is to make the playoffs. Period. However this happens is good, as long as the USTA lets it go. This minimizes the chance for other teams to make it, unless they play the "ratings game" also.

    The way things are now, I enjoy league tennis a lot. It would be even better, though, if the USTA would step up efforts to police intentional underratings and give a good, correctly-rate team a chance to make it to nationals. [I hear the laughter already]
     
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  50. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    I spotted the sandbagger. Yeah, she should know better.

    [​IMG]
     
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