I know we've talked about this before, but.......

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by michael_1265, Aug 14, 2011.

  1. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    Again, junior fed cup. From a very small country that I'm not going to name on here. And...she was played in dead rubbers. Professional tennis? And, Not sure I agree with you on that. I had a previous hitting partner that was ranked as a junior, and two years ago, I could get games off of her. I think more context is needed to determine 'professional' tennis status.

    A bad self-rate? How is that? The captain sent the player's info to section and point blank asked what she could self-rate as. The section said 3.5. She played 4.0. Where is the conspiracy? I understand if you are upset with the section, but there was no motivation to underrate here IMO. And that is why the grievance was denied.

    If she had self-rated 3.5 then I would be more inclined to agree with you.

    I disagree she dominated. Her scores clearly don't indicate that. If she had that much control over a match, wouldn't the wins be a bit 'safer'? Not so many timed out matches? (not sure if you guys have that...but our matches are only allowed 90 minutes...if you don't finish in that time you 'timed out', meaning it was a pretty close, competitive match). And again, that team was one TB from not even making to sectionals.

    If my friends' captain was trying to get away with something, wouldn't she have put the gal on a 3.5 team since the section said that was the lowest rating she could self-rate?

    Again, look at her scores. You may think she 'controlled' things, but you have NO way of knowing that unless you were there. And it would be unfair of you to assume that based on hearsay from other people. People who, IMO, may have been more than a bit upset by their loss. To turn their attention to one person for that loss is unfair IMO. What about the other courts they lost?

    So, you admit that the team from your area is full of underrated players. My friend's team had ONE underrated player (in your opinion)...who exactly do you have an issue with here?

    Perhaps that team thought they were going to plow through everyone, and got a bit of a surprise when that didn't happen? Why assume that someone who beats them must be taking advantage of the situation? Unless...they are too?

    Just some food for thought...I think Cindy mentioned it before and I wholeheartedly agree...you need a DEEP team to make it through. One superstar won't do it.

    Again, where is the *intentional* underrating? I think your issue is more with the USTA than with this player/captain. IMO they did nothing wrong, and the captain went above and beyond to make sure she was NOT doing exactly what you are (sort of) accusing her of.

    I have seen good, correctly-rated teams make it to nationals. More than once.

    Please know, just kind of a disclaimer...that I hope we are both discussing this in good faith. No mirth or anger of any kind here on my end. But because it is an internet message board where things can be easily misunderstood, I just want to clarify that!
     
    #51
  2. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    To add context, Maxx has been injured since last December and has not played a match since then. Second time for the same injury. Hope he gets through it, he's a promising player. Without the injury he would be ranked substantially higher in the ITF and would likely be near the top 5 USTA boys 18s. I get your point though.
     
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  3. michael_1265

    michael_1265 Professional

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    Agreed. No anger or ill will here either. You make a lot of good points. I am judging the case on its face, because I have no other information to go on. As far as having a problem with anyone, yes, I have a problem with any USTA official who would say that girl could rate as a 4.0, much less a 3.5. If we go back to the "old school" stuff, as in the descriptions of the various skill levels, I can't imagine that she could be anything short of a 4.5. Admittedly, those standards are so vague that I could rate a 4.5 on some days, so I will not argue that point too hard.


    I guess one of us will be proven right or wrong in the coming years. If she goes to 4.5 and still dominates, my point will be proven. If not, then feel free to remind me in a year, and I will take my lumps.

    Oh, and congrats on your sectionals performance.
     
    #53
  4. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    You know, in this whole discussion I never looked at the flow chart...I wonder what that would say based on her junior ranking. I may look it up later if I remember.

    And thanks! Overall I had a blast and wow, everyone is SO good! I know if I get bumped I have some work to do!

    And Michael, there really are teams of people that are good people and good, solid players who go all the way! Don't get discouraged!
     
    #54
  5. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    And really, had I known that match was going to be so controversial I would have left town earlier so I could have watched! ;)
     
    #55
  6. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    About the issue of the captain writing to the section and getting permission to have the player rate a certain level . . .

    Maybe the section should stop giving these advisory opinions. The rating standards are clear. If there is an ambiguity, the player can consult other player or pros to get an idea of how to rate.

    Last year, one of my players introduced me to a lady from France who had played as a junior. We wrote to the section, and they said she could rate as low as a 4.0, so that is what she did. She told the section the correct information regarding her rated level in France and her age.

    I had the opportunity to hit with her before her debut on our combo team. As it turns out, she has one win as a junior over Aravane Rezai and one loss to Marion Bartoli. I could touch her ball, but that is all I could do with it. It was so heavy I worried she might knock the racket out of my hand. She was double-bageling my 4.0 singles friend on a regular basis.

    She played two combo matches for me, and I didn't play her any more than that. Her 8.0 mixed captain also stopped playing her. Both captains told her she needed to play a higher level. For 2011, she appealed her 4.0 rating to 4.5, and I believe she is dominating at 8.5 combo. She should probably be a 5.0.

    All the section accomplishes by giving these advisory opinions is giving players cover. The section should just tell players they are on their own in figuring out their rating.
     
    #56
  7. goober

    goober Legend

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    It says "Domestic or foreign junior 18's ranked in top 150 nationally or top 20 in section" are suppose to rate 5.5 if they are under the age of 30.

    This is probably unfair to players from smaller countries, but even the minimum guideline states "Foreign or domestic juniors who had any National ranking but did not play in college have rate 4.5 if under the age of 35."

    I don't see how the player in question could not fall into one of those 2 categories. But I am not surprised as there are many, many case I have seen where the guidelines aren't followed and nothing happens to those in question. Heck there was a women in her early 30s who had ranked as high as 130 in WTA on here defending her 5.0 rating. She played nationals without dropping a set.
     
    #57
  8. fgbGirl

    fgbGirl Guest

    I think she rated too high. She has a better chance of demolishing her opponents if she would have rated 3.0. Because, it's obvious she could care less about the competitive rush of tennis, it's all about winning to her.

    Seriously, isn't she bored out of her mind playing with 4.0s?
     
    #58
  9. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    There is nothing in the flow chart about international juniors. There are guidelines for satellite / futures players and domestic juniors, but not international juniors. The category where it is a grey area whether she falls into it is the "Satellite, Futures, Circuit Players (over # 400 in world)". She never had a ranking, but she did play some futures. The futures tournaments she played were all a single tournament in her home country that she played for a couple years in a row. All but once, she lost her first match of qualifying, sometimes by 6-0 6-0 or 6-0 6-1 scores. One magical year she made a run through qualifying into the main draw, where she won one match before losing. Is this enough to qualify as a "Satellite, Futures, Circuit" player? If so, then the guideline minimum NTRP for a 28 year old is 6.0. If not, then there is no guideline and the 3.5 suggested by the section is appropriate.

    She did win a game from Samantha Stosur as a junior, though. Whatever the resolution of this debate is, that's definitely something to hang your hat on.
     
    #59
  10. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    Actually, I think you are right about the 4.5 ranking. She should probably fall into that category. For the 5.5 guideline, I read that as a 150 ranking in the US, but I could be wrong. There may not even be 150 girls ranked in the country where she played, so that would be really unfair to apply that standard to foreign national rankings.
     
    #60
  11. Limibeans

    Limibeans Rookie

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    I've seen "ranked" D2 college players play 4.0
    I've seen 10 year old kids play "4.0" equivalent leagues.
    I've seen 4.0C rated players (males) who can only lob backhands and hit forehand slice winners.

    People are so fixated over NTRP.

    NTRP is a dynamic system. For it to work you either need people to be 100% honest and objective when measuring skill. Since we know this cannot work, we just have to let time determine appropriate ratings.
     
    #61
  12. Govnor

    Govnor Professional

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    I will never understand sandbagging, in any sport. Who actually enjoys playing a competitive game against someone you know you can just hammer all over the court? Stupid.
     
    #62

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