I think Federer needs to fire Tony Roche (might be a spoiler)

Discussion in 'Pro Match Results and Discussion' started by BreakPoint, Jan 25, 2006.

  1. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    I'm watching the Federer-Davydenko match right now and what I noticed from this match and the Federer-Haas match is that Federer is better off staying at the baseline than coming in as often as he has been. Federer is so incredibly strong from the baseline that there's not really an urgent need for him to get to the net that much. It seems he's getting burned more often than not when he rushes the net off of less than perfect approach shots or when he tries to serve and volley. He is the master and an artist from the backcourt, but I think Roche must be getting him to attack the net more which I think is not really working for him right now. I honestly think Federer was better before he hired Roche, and fooling around with a winning formula isn't really working for Federer right now.

    Now I'm not slamming net play. I'm an all-court player myslef and I serve and volley quite often and love playing the net. But it seems like Federer is trying to do too much of it or maybe at the wrong times and it's backfiring on him at the moment. Anyway, just my personal opinion. We'll see what happens with this match.
     
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  2. rilokiley

    rilokiley Professional

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    What else did Roche change in Federer's game? it doesn't seem like Federer can hold his own serve with ease like he used to. Anything else changed?
     
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  3. Destructo

    Destructo New User

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    I believe that Federer should not have hired Roche in the first place. I remeber him playing so beautifully before when he didn't even have a coach a couple of years back. But now it seems that he comes to the net way too much and I just don't see his game being as fluid as it was anymore. Total bummer. (Though his game still pretty much kicks ass. It's a highly subjective matter I guess.)
     
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  4. Marius_Hancu

    Marius_Hancu G.O.A.T.

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    No, the problem is that under Roche he hasn't made progress in that area of net play. Hist wrist isn't this strrong as Sampras', thus the instability under heavy fire. Thus, yes, you're right to some extent, perhaps they should part ways.
     
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  5. akj27

    akj27 Banned

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    federer lost a set to davydenko, wahts the world coming to
     
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  6. teedub

    teedub Rookie

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    this match has turned out to be so much more than i expected...
     
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  7. Polaris

    Polaris Hall of Fame

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    Whew. That was some match!

    Actually, Davydenko played really well. I was amazed to see him run Federer ragged while showing no signs of tiredness in spite of having played a five-setter and some four-setters leading up to this match. Federer's slice seemed to be faltering in its length, and made no impression on Davydenko. Besides, a lot of his net approaches were ill-advised, which is something one doesn't usually see from him. His volleys, while not as bad as the Haas match, seemed to lack bite today, so he had to hit two or three to win a point.

    Anyway, Federer toughed it out and must be a very tired man at the end. We don't see him grind very often, but tennis is more interesting if he has to do that once in a while. Full marks to Davydenko; he will rue his double-fault in the tie-break and wonder what might have been, had he converted one of those 6 setpoints in the third set.
     
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  8. eagle

    eagle Hall of Fame

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    I think he has been riding on a high for long time and eventually there will be a dip in his performance. That's only natural granted his ride has been a storied and extended one.

    His performance in the Masters Final and the AO so far have been error-prone and uncharacteristically Federeresque. Maybe he is pressing too much. Perhaps he is trying to incorporate Roche's teachings at inopportuned or ill-advised moments. Only time will tell if the Roche's part time coaching bears fruit for Roger.

    The Roger/Mirka braintrust is a smart one. I'm sure he and Mirka confer and assess the pros and cons of having Roche on their team. They have the insider's view of what's going on. Only they know what's good for them.

    r,
    eagle
     
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  9. D.  Nelson

    D. Nelson Semi-Pro

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    ....I don't agree with the above posts about Fed not 'needing' to come to the net so much.... If you look at the last set in general, and the tiebreaker specifically............THE time when he put on pressure were THE times he came to net.....He would NOT have won that set any other way.....
     
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  10. Marius_Hancu

    Marius_Hancu G.O.A.T.

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    give respect where respect is due
    Davydenko is a great mover, the 2nd in the pros
     
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  11. mdhubert

    mdhubert Semi-Pro

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    I partially agree, I love S&V and Rafter is one of my past faves, but it seems that surfaces, racquets, all favor a baseline game today and it takes some guts and a hell of an approach to rush the net today. I miss a bit the '04 Fed without a coach, he was free and played more on an instinct mode which was very effective. However, in the long run, shorter points could benefit his longevity. Plus his "all court" game is his trademark. But it's very ambitious in today's game, and til today we haven't really seen the added value of Roche in Slams. So let's wait, but if he doesn't win AO or FO, he should fire him...
     
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  12. Keifers

    Keifers Legend

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    Looking back on the whole match, I don't think Fed came to net too much. He did win one of his service games in the last set by serving up the middle medium pace and following it into the net. Drew a weak return and volleyed it away -- surprised Davydenko nicely.

    I think he's playing a predominantly baseline game, especially at the AO (Rebound Ace). Certainly his volleys are not as good as they were when he beat Sampras at the 2001 Wimbledon. ('Course he doesn't get much practice in volleying in most of his matches.)
     
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  13. tom-selleck

    tom-selleck Professional

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    good drama.... but i didn't think the play was that great.... OTOH, federer/haas was one for the ages.

    i agree that fed's game seems somewhat off. i thought he should go to full-time coach, but maybe he should go back to no coach, although let's not forget he wasn't winning all these tournaments with ease a couple of years ago.
     
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  14. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    Have to respectfully disagree with BP on this. With Nadal looming, Fed can't get too comfortable hanging out at the baseline. And not hitting crisp approaches isn't Roche's fault - coming to the net on a good approach is a sound strategy; coming to the net on anything less is a Kamikazi Run. And the only way Fed will learn is to do it in matches.
     
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  15. opiate

    opiate Semi-Pro

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    Davydenko played impressive. And Roger isn't doing himself a favour by playing less than stellar, especially faced by a man on a mission like Davydenko. Well, everyone has a mission, but at times, I saw Davydenko having a bigger mission than Fed.

    I don't think Fed played all that much net, S/V, etc. But he seems... lost, like he's unsure what shot to play or whether it's actually ill-advised. I know I'm definitely not one to advise him on anything, but... he looked... lost.

    I guess this is the "one step back" everyone (including Fed) has to go through when learning a new trade (or at least a trade not one's own habit). I can only hope that it will lead to the "two steps forward" and not otherwise. There's a whole slew of bitter pills to be had before then.

    Or maybe, (and this one would please Fed's detractors enormously), Fed is just regressing.

    And props to Davydenko, most importantly, to be able to last that long (3 hours was it), on top of the four- and five-setters he had previously. And for him to somehow come out of it looking slightly less haggard than Fed.
     
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  16. I.hEaRt.KeAbLe

    I.hEaRt.KeAbLe Rookie

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    DAVYDENKO IS GOING PLACES.Keifers an idiot.that is all.xx
     
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  17. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    You guys are all forgetting the immortal words of Oakland/LA Raider head honcho Al Davis, "Just win, baby!" Fed keeps winning. Close only gets it done in horseshoes and hand grenades.
     
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  18. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    Firing Roche will not change the fact that the shift to slower surfaces has created an equalizer between Fed and the rest of the ATP. Don't hate the player or his coach, hate the game.
     
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  19. tom-selleck

    tom-selleck Professional

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    yeah, i was wondering how slow this surface is (announcers constantly remark on it), and that is a huge equalizer....

    maybe fed will dominate wimbledon/USO, challenged at aussy and have a real tough time at FO.

    i actually thought he played better today than vs. agassi (first 3 sets) at USO. i remember i got flamed for saying that maybe fed should get full-time coach (and now i wonder about no coach and going more back to his own instincts).
     
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  20. Pancho

    Pancho Semi-Pro

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  21. @wright

    @wright Hall of Fame

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    Federer is volleying very well now. There is certainly a marked improvement over the past couple years. I think Federer is looking forward to the future when he won't be as fast and will need to end points quicker without expending as much energy as baseline play does.
     
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  22. uNIVERSE mAN

    uNIVERSE mAN Rookie

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    It's not the wrist you dodo! sampras has a heavier racquet which is better designed for S/V, Roger's racquet is lighter and is harder to control for purely S/V. If you gave Sampras this racquet, he'd have problems playing those vollies too.
     
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  23. ACE of Hearts

    ACE of Hearts G.O.A.T.

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    He will be fine!He has maded a ton of errors these last 2 matches.I will say that if he doesnt start playing crisp tennis, he will lose!U just cant get away with stuff like that, no matter how great u are.
     
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  24. Marius_Hancu

    Marius_Hancu G.O.A.T.

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    reserve dodo for yourself and your family.

    I think I know that better than you do.
    I am using a 6.0 85 balanced close to Sampras'.
    (395g, 32.5cm balance from the butt end, strung).

    You're very probably not playing with one.

    This is not necessarily better for volleying, in one respect, as it is less maneuverable, and less headlight.

    E.g. Daniel Nestor is using a 390g, 29.7cm balance strung, racquet, and he's one of the best doubles players in the world, thus a very good volleyer.
    Thus he's using a much headlight racquet.

    But it was better for Sampras' arm, who could handle it.

    Still, Sampras' arm was stronger, and the wrist, and that is the point. Fed has the technique, of course, but not the strength to withstand this many heavy balls at him as Sampras was doing.
     
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  25. Chopin

    Chopin Hall of Fame

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    These posts are becoming boring...Federer keeps winning and he appears healthy--those are the only things that matter. Its like everyone on this board expects him to win every match in straight sets. He's still on track to becoming the greatest ever.
     
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  26. Marius_Hancu

    Marius_Hancu G.O.A.T.

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    deleted post.
     
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  27. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    Federer is NOT an emerging volleyer..he is not an emerging serve/volleyer...In fact, he used to do that sort of thing much more earlier in his career, and is highly skilled at it. In fact, the shot he has developed which he didnt have before is the drop shot...he already had the volley and the transitional shots. Fed knows people cant win tourneys and majours by being at net (other than selectively because he knows the game has changed even since when he was at net a lot more just a couple years ago)..he's just playing smart tenniss, adapting, and playng the style required to win.
     
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  28. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    I honestly don't think Roche is really Fed's coach. He's more of a part-time consultant. He wasn't even with Federer at the US Open. And he's only been at a few events since joining Fed.
    Fed is the only one to blame win or lose. You overestimate the role of a coach in Fed's results.

    This 4 setters was longer than the 5 setters with Haas. Fed looked tired at the end, not sure if he would have been able to pull it out had it gone 5. And he's lucky they didn't play during the day.
     
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  29. tylerchadwick

    tylerchadwick Rookie

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    my take on the last two matches are court postioning and his backhand volley. Feds forehand volley was right on nearly every time vs. Davy. The thing I noticed was he missed probably 90% of volleys on his backhand side. He even framed some seemingly easy volleys. other missed backhand volleys were due to delay in the transition to net or poor approaches. His forehand lacked the federesque pace, depth, and variety to set up the points. Also, Davy played most of the rallies on or inside the baseline which made Federer play behind hit. THerefore, his shots lacked the depth to take control of much of the points. It really didn't seem like he anticipated the fiestiness and speed of Davy and wasn't interested in using good footwork to be in position to be aggressive. Vs. Haas, he seemed way more aggressive and in control. In the 3rd and 4th sets he played just a couple of loose points and Haas played incredible defense which Fed wasn't expecting.

    Two great wins but really scarey to see his fitness break down like that last night. Scary for fed fans, and I'm a big one.

    JMHO
     
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  30. Keifers

    Keifers Legend

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    Agree that Fed looked quite tired at the end there. To me, that reflected his mental fatigue as well as his physical fatigue after a tense and very physical match. The pressure coming from Davydenko was relentless.
     
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  31. joe sch

    joe sch Hall of Fame

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    This is the truth.
    The Fed Roche relationship is to give Roger the tools to win for the next decade, otherwise he will not be the now appointed all time great.
     
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  32. @wright

    @wright Hall of Fame

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    I think this makes the most sense, Joe. Some of you will take this as heresy, but there were several times during the Davy match that Federer hit a volley winner that reminded me of Sampras. The touch Sampras used to knock off a volley seemed duplicated a few times by Federer last night. I do think that he is still developing as far as getting in even when it's not as comfortable to. He even charged the net down a set point! If you don't believe in your volley, you do NOT do that!
     
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  33. Jolly Reaper

    Jolly Reaper New User

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    Personally, I think that Federer is doing a great job coming to the net. There are times when it's probably not the best idea, but as long as he picks the right times, instead of all the times, then I think it's great.
     
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  34. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Yes, Keifers, I concur. Fed's net game and approach shots certainly improved in the last set when he really needed it. I started this thread in the middle of the 3rd set based upon his play up to that point and also from the Haas match. Fed really did raise his game when he really needed it. Saving 6 set points at the end of the 3rd set and coming back from 3-6 down in that 3rd set tiebreak is indisputable evidence of that.
     
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  35. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    I agree. I'm all for all-court play, S&V, chip and charge, etc., because that's what I do. You're right in that Fed shouldn't just plant himself on the baseline and needs to develop ways to pressure his opponents even more. However, it just seems to me that, at the moment anyway, he appears to be forcing it a bit too much and being caught flatfooted or blowing easy volleys on occasion. It just doesn't always seem natural to me compared to say a Rafter or Edberg. That's why I was blaming his coach because I think he's gotten to Fed's head that he needs to be at the net more but it's not yet totally natural for Fed and is , at the moment, causing him to make some uncharacteristic errors.
     
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  36. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    But as I recall that was on a second serve, down set point, and he served and vollyed and lost the point. Probably not the best time to do that and probably not the smartest thing to do given the incredible strength of his baseline game. Please correct me if my recollection of that point is incorrect.
     
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  37. Shaolin

    Shaolin Hall of Fame

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    Fed needs to drop his "consultant" or get a new one. That match (vs Davy) was the worst Ive seen him play in a long time. Davydenko played stellar to push him to that point but he missed so many volleys and easy balls, it was hard to watch. It was similar to Shanghai when he was dumping volleys into the net right and left.

    His game sucks now compared to 2004. Hope he goes solo again.
     
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  38. federerer

    federerer New User

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    I think Roche's role is probably a bit over-stated. I agree with those who view Roche mainly as a consultant. It seems that they just talk about tennis quite a bit rather than the role of a typical coach who sort of takes control of a players game.

    Fed has been way off his game the last two matches, but the opponents have a lot to do with that. Haas and Davydenko played excellent tennis. We see Fed botch a bunch of points at the net and say Roche has messed him up, but there were long stretches where he was botching things from the baseline as well. I mean, how many framejobs did he have his last match?

    Fed depends so much on his movement, that when he gets tired he's not able to execute with the prolonged excellence that we are used to. Last match he pretty much stopped moving his feet which is almost certain death at the net.
     
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  39. 156MPHserve

    156MPHserve Professional

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    I think it's great that he's coming to the net more. He's 24, sorry guys but Federer is HUMAN. Even now he can't play 5 sets of good tennis, what happens when he's 27? He might not be like an Agassi, being proficient at the net will SAVE and EXTEND his career.
     
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  40. Klippy

    Klippy Semi-Pro

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    I might just be being a little superstitious here, but has anybody noticed that after Federer teamed up with Roche, and also after that new haricut, he has become sort of...more...stuck-up. Modest. Maybe a little arrogant? He has also been shouting "Common!" more on the court and stuff like that. And also getting angrier more often, when he makes errors and stuff.
    Of course, I am not saying that Roche made him that way, or that the haircut has some sort of magical powers, lol. And of course, every player has every right to shout "Common!" on the court. It is not against the rules. I just liked the old Roger better, the quiet one, with the pony-tail and with this...shyness about him. Now he seems so...sure of himself. But he's still pretty cool.
     
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  41. Klippy

    Klippy Semi-Pro

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    Lols. I liked the 2003 Roger best. He didn't...dominate everything. But he was still a great player.
     
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  42. Fedubai

    Fedubai Semi-Pro

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    I know what you mean Klippy, but I don't think it's got anything to do with Roche or his hair, haha. I don't think he's arrogant or anything, he's just getting older and more confident now. He was definitely more shy a couple years ago, but I think now we're finally seeing what he's like when he's not faced with 20 cameras and a national audience. It's been interesting to watch. He's definitely more confident though I think, but not arrogant.

    Cute story last year at Dubai, if I remember right a little girl was at one of his practice sessions along with a crowd, and he was giving autographs if I remember right, and she fell or hit her head or something and got a bloody nose and was crying and everything, and so she got to go sit with Federer. Guess what he gave her? A hug.

    Thought it was pretty cool. You get to expect these guys to plaster on a smile and give some autographs these days, but that shows again Federer's geniune realness.
     
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  43. Keifers

    Keifers Legend

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    Yeah, Roger is real alright. He has a big heart and is a very warm person behind that cooler public image. He takes his role as world #1 very seriously because he knows the impact he can have as #1, especially with kids.

    This kind of understanding and dedication is quite remarkable considering his age. It's one of the major reasons I admire him so much.
     
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  44. dirkgnuf

    dirkgnuf Rookie

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    Congrats, Breakpoint, looks like you were right in your prediction,
    although it took a year though
     
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  45. Tennis_Monk

    Tennis_Monk Hall of Fame

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    Sure. Here is another prediction. All current Tennis players will change their coaches in 10 yrs or less from now.
     
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  46. ubel

    ubel Professional

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    very w3rd. Marius was right as well, Federer hasn't made much progress with Roche; it just took Federer 3 very early losses (2 from someone who has been training his ass off and IMPROVING in his off time) to realize he needs to change in order to stay at the top.

    Who wouldn't like to see a more aggressive Federer annihilate his opponents from the back court, coming in when the opportunity arises and showing us not only his incredible power, but also the ungodly touch and grace he possesses.. In the words of Dick Enberg, I can only describe this radical change and transformation with two words:
    [​IMG]
     
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  47. larlarbd

    larlarbd Banned

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    #47
  48. Shaolin

    Shaolin Hall of Fame

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    Nice prediction/analysis from Breakpoint. I hope things work out better now for Fed.
     
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  49. rwn

    rwn Semi-Pro

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    Hilarious post. Keep up the good work.
     
    #49
  50. rwn

    rwn Semi-Pro

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    Incredibly funny! How do you come up with these gems?
     
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