I will miss Federer

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by hoodjem, Feb 8, 2012.

  1. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki,

    I think you were the first one to compare Vines and Kodes.

    You forgot Vines's pro majors.

    Hth of Rosewall to Newcombe is 14:10 and 4:3 in big events. On grass big events it's 3:3. We should not forget that the two firstly met when Rosewall was 33 and Newcombe 24!.

    Newcombe won 7 grass majors and Rosewall won 8 in their careers.
     
  2. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    pc1,

    It's fine that you hint to Rosewall's high age in comparison with Connors, Gerulaitis and Roche. Rosewall as a "grandpa" was extraordinaire: For instance it's a wonder that the Little Master was able to beat Gerulaitis in 1977 when Vitas was No.4.
     
  3. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    I am mystified by the correlation of Kodes and Vines.

    Strange.?
     
  4. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, Muscles won eight majors, but two were on clay: French Championships in 1953, 1968.

    Amazing longevity.
     
  5. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I wonder if Rosewall's size contributed to his longevity. The only time I can recall him being injured was an ankle injury in the early 70's. But, I'm not aware of anything chronic or career threatening.
     
  6. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    hoodjem,

    I wrote that Rosewall won eight majors on GRASS if we include the pro majors.

    His best wins on grass came in 1963 and 1965 when Muscles defeated the Rocket clearly at the US Pro.

    I only know of Tilden and Laver who have won more grass majors than Rosewall...
     
  7. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Aaah. Okay.
     
  8. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Not to mention the fact that Vines didn't play pro majors in 1937-1938 (and still won 5 in his pro career), and was winning all the big pro tours he played from 1934-1938. I believe Perry won a short British tour against Vines in 1937, something like 6-3, while Vines won the big tour by 32-29.
     
  9. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Vitas was very keen on australian tennis and he learned a lot from Rosewall during the time they shared the same team at the WTT (can´t remember...Boston Lobsters?)

    Vitas coach was Fred Stolle, one of Rosewall´s favourite doubles partners.

    BTW, Rosewall-Stolle (Hoad was almost on retirement), Newcombe-Roche and Emmo-Rocket, what a great doubles era¡ ( and adding Hewitt-Mc Millan...)
     
  10. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Honestly, I am mystified too...
     
  11. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    My guess is that Rosewall had such a smooth style. His footwork was smooth and his stroking style was smooth. I think Rosewall mentioned that it was getting the maximum with the least effort or something like that.

    Some players like Nadal have violent styles. The results are super but I think it hurts his body.

    In this way I believe Muscles is somewhat similar to Federer in how their styles are so smooth it doesn't tax their bodies.
     
  12. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki,

    Since you mentioned Rosewall-Stolle: I still wonder that Rosewall has a 23:2 head to head against Stolle (perhaps a few matches of 1967 are missing). That's almost as impressive as Laver's head to head against Ashe (is it 18:4?). Of course Ashe was much stronger than Stolle.
     
  13. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    pc1,

    I think you have analysed Rosewall's style very good. Yes his style did not hurt him.

    I only know of one hurting of Muscles when he stepped on a nail during the final of the 1972 Hilton Head tournament. The Little Master managed yet to beat there John Newcombe in straight sets.
     
  14. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Yet he was disallowed for military service due to medical reasons, i think flat feet.
     
  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    urban,

    You are right about Rosewall's flat foot.

    urban, I appreciate your posts a lot. Unfortunately you don't write too often here...
     
  16. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    BobbyOne,

    I believe Laver was 22-3 against Ashe.
     
  17. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    pc1,

    Thanks for the information. 22:3 is awesome. Almost a wonder. Laver was an old player mostly when playing Ashe.
     
  18. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Thanks, Bobby One. I agree with most of Your very insightful comments. I was on vacation to Italy for the last weeks. Sometimes i fear to repeat myself, there are so many old threads here on comparable subjects. I also agree that Tilden, Gonzalez, Rosewall and Laver stand out in tennis history, in any way, despite some will devalue their pro achievements. I would also name Borg, Sampras and Federer as modern players.
    Tennis history is complex, with the pro - amateur split, the equipment and surface changes and many other factors. Its somewhat unfair (to the players) and silly to compare players with some 50- 80 or more years apart, say Tilden and Federer, and decide definitely, this one or that one is better. Some time ago, we had a thread here on Laurie Doherty: He won everything that was there to win against all comers he faced. What can you do more? Some aspect which we could consider in evaluating greatness - besides dominance, longevity and versatility - is imo the aspect of innovation. What did a player bring in as a specific innovation or modernisation of the game?
     
  19. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    urban,

    Thanks for your nice words about me.

    After your and mine Top Four I also have Borg, Sampras and Federer in that order. Federer who is overrated at the younger fans in my opinion, could yet jump ahead a bit.

    Yes, Laurie Doherty won so much but I have not included him in the top seven because the competition in his time was weaker.
     
  20. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Some of the best matches laver played were against Ashe.Some stunning play from both, it looked like both really wanted it so much whenenver they played each other.

    BTW, Stolle is undervalued here.Just as much or more than Jan Kodes.The guy won a couple of majors but he had the misfurtone to play in one of the toughest eras.

    Unfortunately, he is a bit like Roddick: 3 Wimbledon finals lost, that hurts so much...

    I saw him play against some classic players like Emerson and Santana and he beat them.Nice fella, great sense of humour.He and Vitas got along so fine...
     
  21. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Stolle is one of my favorites: great player, nice fellow, cheerful demeanor, and very knowledgeable.

    The one thing he lacked was any killer instinct.
     
  22. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    ...yes, specially that little funny thing called Wimbledon, which Laver won 4 times, Tilden 3 and Rosewall...4 lost finals.
     
  23. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I agree.His BH return was the best of the amateur game for long time.He was a great doubles partner, he won a lot of doubles titles with Hewitt,Emerson and Rosewall ( he certainly picked up terrific doubles partners, as well).

    Few French Open & US Open & 3 times Wimbledon beaten finalists have had less recognition over these boards...except, of course, Jan Kodes.
     
  24. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki,

    You know why Rosewall did not win Wimbledon: because he missed 11 of his best years. In comparison to Laver: the Rocket won all his four Wimbledon titles plus his two Grand Slams in an age of life (23 to 31) when Rosewall was banned.

    Even Jack Kramer who often belittled the Little Master wrote that Rosewall would have won four Wimbledon titles if he could have participate...
     
  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    He also happened to play peak Hoad in 1956, peak Newcombe in 1970 and peak Connors in 1974 ( and he was already 40).How old was Drobny in 1954?
     
  26. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Jaroslav Drobny was 32 when he won 1954 Wimbledon. Rosewall was 19, and said in a 2000 interview on a Wimbledon VHS I have somewhere, that in hindsight, he thinks that it was his best chance to win Wimbledon. Rosewall said that with him being 19, he thought he would at least have a few more years at it and believed he would do it, so wasn't too disappointed at the time.
     
  27. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Drobny, by the way, is a very very interesting case, and certainly the greatest czech player before the open era.He was known for his big serve, effective volley and, as somebody mentioned, maybe the best ever drop shots.

    I was thinking of many great czechs ( and I wont mention AGAIN jan Kodes) have played this game and how unspoken they are: Hozeluh ( a Tilden contemporary who wnnt por very soon and whom Tilden considered at a certain moment the best player of the world), of course, Jaroslav Drobny, Vera Sukova ( mother of Helena and herself a Wimbledon runner up) and some others...

    Maybe Lendl´s self imposed hate from the press has something to see with that forgetting.

    It is amazing, while people can post about complete journeymen like Blake,Fish,Giammalva,Welby Van Horn,Kovacs...
     
  28. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki,

    I agree with Rosewall that his best Wimbledon chance was in 1954. Muscles once said that he was ill-adviced by Harry Hopman who suggested Ken to stay mostly at the baseline...

    Please write Kozeluh not Hozeluh...

    And please don't say that Kovacs (and maybe van Horn) were just journeymen.

    Van Horn once pressed once Kramer to five sets in the US Pro and he was a finalist at Forest Hills.

    Frank Kovacs was-according to Bill Tilen- the most talented player of all times. I rank him among the top five for 12 years!
     
  29. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Kovacs was a fantastic player with one of the great one handed backhands of all time. Some like Riggs have hinted that Kovacs at his best was as great as anyone. He won many tournaments in his career.
     
  30. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Oh, I don't doubt it.

    Muscles was robbed (by more than Drobny, Hoad, Newcombe, and Connors).
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2012
  31. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    He was robbed by the stupidity of the amateur establishment as was many players.

    Incidentally those four were incredibly tough grass court players.
     
  32. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I think Drobny also took a FO title ( well, lets call it Fo even if it was not open as everybody knows).His personal story might be second to no other tennis star,e xcept maybe for Van Cramm.One was a victim of Nazism, and the former of Stalinism.
     
  33. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Incorrect. Rosewall was not banned in 1968-69.

    Laver won his later two Wimbledon titles and his second GS when Rosewall was not banned, and could and did compete. (Rosewall lost in the fourth round at Wimbledon 1968 to Roche. He lost at Wimbledon 1969 to Bob Lutz in the third round. As for Laver's GS of 1969, Rosewall lost to Gimeno in the third round of the AO 1969; Laver met and beat Rosewall in the finals of the FO of 1969; as mentioned Muscles lost to Lutz in the third round at Wimbledon 1969; at the USO 1969 Rosewall lost to Ashe in the quarters.)

    Rosewall was there for five of Laver's 11 (standard, non-pro-only) slams.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2012
  34. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    hoodjem,

    I must correct you. You did not read my words exactly.

    While it's correct that Rosewall could participate in 1968 and 1969 (when he was already 33 and 34) he did NOT participate in an AGE OF LIFE when Laver won his Wimbledons and his open GS (at 23, 24, 30, and 31)! In the four latter years Muscles could NOT participate which means he has lost all his best years to the pro ranks (as also Gonzalez did).
     
  35. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Okay. Because you are the author, I accept your intended meaning.
     
  36. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    hoodjem,

    Thanks.
     
  37. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Here it is.

    No sarcasm.
     
  38. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    I will miss his aesthetically pleasing tennis but truthfully I liked his more aggressive style pre-2004 opposed to his strict baseline style that came after. He was much more fun to watch back then. I wish he would have stayed aggressive with that style of game.


    What I won't miss is that stuck up, aloof personality of his and many times would just never give the opponent credit for beating him fair and square. . Its gnaws at me. Always has.

    Even Hewitt has talked about as to what Roger was like in the locker room

    Definitely an all time great. I will miss his play, but the rest, no thank you.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2013
  39. Goosehead

    Goosehead Hall of Fame

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    open tennis was almost voted in during 1960/61..

    the move fell 5 votes short of the required majority, things would've looked different if the open era had started in 1961.
     
  40. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    C'est vrai.
     

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