If Murray faces Nadal at Wimbledon...

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Nathaniel_Near, Jun 14, 2013.

  1. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    That's funny, I could have sworn he played six guys to win Miami, but whatever mate, if he's winning Masters Series whilst in poor form then I'll take that.

    Like I said, you're free to think Murray would have no chance against Rafa - I'm sure plenty would disagree.
     
  2. pds999

    pds999 Hall of Fame

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    No, you misunderstand me. I didn't say "no chance", I simply said that on form Rafa is a fairly clear favourite. Difficult to argue with really? Plus their H2H on grass is very lop-sided as well which is always a factor. Murray can beat anyone on his day but over 5 sets on grass I would have to favour Rafa, assuming they meet in the latter stages when both are dialled in.
     
  3. Goosehead

    Goosehead Hall of Fame

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    screw the h2h..murray mentally has changed since 2011 its so clear that was what was hurting him a lot before..and he is a better player than back then..he'd be all over nadal on grass now.
     
  4. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    I think quite a few here are under-estimating murray's chances vs rafa at wimbledon.

    If murray plays anything like last year at Wimbledon or Olympics, rafa will find it very very difficult.
     
  5. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    Then we are in violent agreement - I've stated twice that Rafa would be favourite if they meet at SW19.

    Being honest mate - my biggest single wish for Murray's SW 19 draw is that Rafa is not in his half. I've said on here on several occasions that beating Rafa @ wimbledon is one of Murray's big remaining hurdles of his career.
     
  6. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    so rafa returns better than murray and has a better BH, especially the slice ?

    LOL !!!!!
     
  7. kalyan4fedever

    kalyan4fedever Hall of Fame

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    Murraa should only pray he doesnt meet rafa.. Rafa will demolish him...he won that fluke slam *uso12 in the absence of nadal , otherwise it would have been routine nadal vs djoker final.. he is 0-3 against nadal on wimby no ? all that lendl thing is only hype..he has not improved one bit Dont quote me :)
     
  8. pds999

    pds999 Hall of Fame

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    Return fairly similar. Slice though? Nadal's all day long. It's a shot honed on a clay court. Were you joking with that comment?
     
  9. pds999

    pds999 Hall of Fame

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    For those thinking Murray will beat Nadal... Well not on his performance vs Tsonga today. Very disjointed.
     
  10. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

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    You've obviously not watched either. Murray has the better slice if you watched them across ALL surfaces. I'll say they both have good backhands. But what Nadal has is better movement and his forehand which is a far bigger weapon than anything Andy has in his arsenal.
     
  11. MTF07

    MTF07 Semi-Pro

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    Nadal's slice is decent, but Murray's is decidedly better, as is his return game. They are not similar.
     
  12. underground

    underground Legend

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    To be honest though the Miami final was a crapfest. Murray fail to consolidating breaks of serve 3 times in a row and couldn't serve it out.
     
  13. sosa09

    sosa09 Semi-Pro

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    And still he won the match 6-2 the third set...


    And these kind of tournaments means nothing.. Murray last year lost in R2 vs mahut in queens, but in wimbledon he was amazing...
     
  14. OKUSA

    OKUSA Hall of Fame

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    Why do people think Nadal's returning is somehow better than Murray's?
     
  15. ark_28

    ark_28 Hall of Fame

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    I still believe Murrays improvement in results last year had more to do with Nadal's absence than Lendl's presence on that basis I back Nadal in 3 or 4 sets.
     
  16. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    I think you've found your answer. :)
     
  17. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    I would love to see Djokovic take on Murray at Wimbledon. A lot of people on here think Djokovic is a scrub on grass courts.
     
  18. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes they do. I am not one of them however, and I am of the belief that Djokovic would beat Murray if they played at Wimbledon.
     
  19. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Not if Nadal is also playing at his best or close to his best.
     
  20. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near G.O.A.T.

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    Relax folks, ...
    Nadal's slice misses less and he's mastered the art of putting it in one or two very specific positions on the court to allow himself to reset a rally. Murray can hit the ball to more places with his slice, and shows more regular confidence to hit a biting slice, he also hits better approaches with his slice and it's a more integral part of his point construction. Little doubt that, overall, Murray's slice is a better shot than 'Hafa's'.
     
  21. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    I think Murray is a better returner than Djokovic personally, or atleast his equal. Best returner today IMO.
     
  22. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Same here, Steve. I thought Djokovic's form on grass in 2011 was excellent and if he plays like that again, there is no way I would consider Murray the favorite over him should they play a match at Wimbledon.
     
  23. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    So what do we do if both of them are playing well? Replace "very very difficult" with just "difficult?" ;)
     
  24. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree. I think Murray is just as good a returner as Djokovic is if not better.
     
  25. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    LOL, well then it is a tough call. Hard to know where Murray's form is currently since we have not seen him around for a while. I have not watched any of his Queen's matches and even if I did, not sure it would tell us much about W.
     
  26. malbaker86

    malbaker86 Professional

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    When the hell did Murray become some grass court God??
     
  27. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    What do you think of his (Djokovic's) chances against Nadal? I'm interested in what you have to say since I've seen all manner of different opinions. I think he's the slight favourite against Nadal on grass, but I've heard the whole mental aspect of his defeat at RG perhaps hindering his chances. A fair opinion, but one I don't really agree with.

    I would also be fascinated at the prospect of another Federer-Djokovic match. Don't get me wrong here, winning Wimbledon will not be easy for Djokovic and he won't have it easy against Nadal or Murray, but I honestly think if Federer plays well against Djokovic at Wimbledon, he is still probably Djokovic's toughest out roof or not.
     
  28. rosewallGOAT

    rosewallGOAT Banned

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    Nadal and Djokovic play on grass Nadal will win, and more easily than he did at the French. Probably similar to their first few grass matches. Only Djokovic in his best year ever, and with the mental age of beating Nadal many times in a row including on clay, could win against Nadal on grass probably. Nadal is simply a much better grass court player. Djokovic is way better on clay than grass, there probably is as big or bigger a gap between his clay and grass abilities than Nadal's, considering it is Nadal's second best surface by far.
     
  29. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Eh. I don't know. Until I see Murray zone on a guy's serve and consistently return it within inches of the baseline, I'd give Djokovic a fair edge in the return department. Murray seems to be more consistent, but not as much of a go for broke style as Djokovic, but Djokovic's high end is REALLY high. Higher than Murray's IMO.
     
  30. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near G.O.A.T.

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    Relax folks, ...
    Another problem for Nole against Rafa is that Rafa has a much greater track record at Wimbledon and has proved himself to be the more natural operator on the surface. Even assuming Nole will feel no ill effects of his recent loss, or that he may even be further buoyed by it, he would have to overcome someone who has historically been the superior player on grass. Five finals vs one is a fairly big deal. Nole could have good chances especially if he won't be affected mentally as I fear but he's only demonstrated the required excellence needed to truly excel on grass once in his career, and that was at 2011 Wimbledon. Can he do it again? Maybe, but I'd rather bank on the consistent and sustained excellence that Nadal has shown on the surface more or less year in, year out.
     
  31. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    If Nadal and Djokovic meet at W the reason I think Nadal may win has nothing to do with the mental aspect because of the RG result. I think Nadal has a slight edge over Djokovic at W because Nadal is the better grass player imo. However, if they do meet, it should be a tight contest.
     
  32. sportsfan1

    sportsfan1 Hall of Fame

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    Murray loses, it's that simple. Rafa is a worse opponent for Murray than Djoker and Fed.
     
  33. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    By the same token, you could say Djokovic would have 2 finals at Wimbledon, and perhaps 2 titles if he hadn't met Federer last year who played a great SF and F. Perhaps if the roof was open Djokovic would've won, but we'll never know. All I'm saying is it took a LOT to take Djokovic out last year. He's not the scrub that some like to pretend he is on grass.
     
  34. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    My gut feeling is the same as yours. I think Djokovic would be a slight favorite as well. We all saw how much Djokovic struggles against the heaviness of Nadal's shots on clay. In the 5th set, Djokovic could barely make clean contact with the ball once Nadal started going for his shots. I think the lower bounce on grass will work to his advantage. Nadal has never displayed the level of dominance he does on grass as he does on clay. Therefore, I don't think the mental aspect will play a huge part. Nadal is a much more natural clay court player, but Djokovic has a way of controlling baseline rallies that can even the playing field.

    I agree that Federer is probably the toughest opponent for Djokovic, but how about a potential Federer vs Nadal match? Nadal will probably be ranked 5th at Wimbledon. Who do you think will win that encounter?
     
  35. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Oh dear, please no! In their current forms Nadal will thrash Federer at W imo unless Federer is able to up his play about 5 levels.
     
  36. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Unfortunately from my POV I believe that Nadal would beat Federer at Wimbledon if they both played well (just a general assumption to make the potential match easier to handicap). It's just hard to believe otherwise these days. Although I will say this, Federer would have a fair shot, might even be favoured slightly if it started to rain and subsequently the roof was closed.
     
  37. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near G.O.A.T.

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    Relax folks, ...
    He's definitely no scrub, however he is an amazing player who gets by on grass not by being a natural grass courter, but by just being.. an amazing player. Lendl was similar in that he got some great results at Wimbledon but it was the surface that suited his game the least. Djokovic is in the presence of a couple of truly legendary grass courters so it's a stiff ride despite his obvious ability even on the green stuff. It definitely did take a huge effort for Roger to take out Novak last year in the semis, though I'd rather leave discussions about the roof out of it. Who knows what would have happened but given what Nole did to Fed at the WTFinals it's kind of a wash to really take it into consideration if that makes sense.

    The thing with Fed last year is he simply wanted it more than Nole AND Murray in the end. I posted a vid earlier that showed a shanked fh return winner from Roger with not even a hint of apology -- wicked.

    So yes Nole, great player, has his chances, but when I objectively look at what Nadal, Federer and Murray bring to the table, Nadal's and Federer's records on the surface, and Murray's recent superb results on grass, I am left with the impression that Nole will need to find an extra wrinkle in his game to get the job done. So, what could this be? Well maybe take more advantage of the space he opens up with his DTL backhands to venture into the net more and finish off the point. I'm not sure, and maybe Nole will just rip the competition to shreds at Wimbledon. Murray has the advantage of recent supreme grass form and Federer and Nadal have it more in a historical context. I suppose I need Djokovic to prove to me that 2011 wasn't some sort of anomaly.

    Also, it's all right saying Nole could have had 2 finals at Wimbledon had Fed not been in the way, but a 6 time champion (at the time) was in the way and the facts remain that he's only made it to 1, the point being that it truly takes a special effort to breakthrough the grass-court elite in this era. Given what I've said, if Nole wins Wimbledon i'll be deeply impressed and my whole estimation of him as a player on the surface will rise drastically, and I'll be the first to congratulate yourself and others on having the foresight that I lacked.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2013
  38. Incognito

    Incognito Hall of Fame

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    I think this will happen if these match-ups occur at Wimbledon this year:

    Murray vs Nadal - Murray wins
    Murray vs Djokovic - Murray wins
    Murray vs Federer - Murray wins

    Nadal vs Djokovic - Nadal wins
    Nadal vs Federer - Nadal wins

    Djokovic vs Federer - Djokovic wins

    Only Juan Martin can prevent Andy from taking home the title :D
     
  39. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near G.O.A.T.

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    Relax folks, ...
    OH RLY?!

    :) x 5
     
  40. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    So you value a higher top end compared to consistant good returning? Murray is less likely to hit outright winners from returns but he gets alot of balls into play. He doesn't just put them into play either. I guess my recent perception of Murray these days is just that he hits alot of consistantly good returns. Novak is flashier though.
     
  41. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near G.O.A.T.

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    Relax folks, ...
    At the business end of a tournament where you might have to beat all time greats to win a Major, I'd take the higher top end, absolutely no question.
     
  42. Warmaster

    Warmaster Hall of Fame

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    I'm going with:

    Murray vs Nadal - Murray wins
    Murray vs Djokovic - Murray wins
    Murray vs Federer - Murray wins (unless Federer plays like last year - big if)

    Nadal vs Djokovic - Djokovic wins
    Nadal vs Federer - Nadal wins

    Djokovic vs Federer - Federer wins

    The really important thing about the draw is where Tsonga and Berdych end up or whether Nadal has a tough opponent in the early rounds.

    Federer needs to avoid Nadal, Berdych and Tsonga and there is only 1/4 chance of that happening (assuming top 8 reaches the QF).

    Murray can beat anyone in my opinion, but would preferably avoid Berdych and Nadal.

    Nadal will want to avoid Murray and Djokovic and a dangerous hard-hitter in the early rounds.

    Djokovic needs to avoid Federer and Murray.
     
  43. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Frankly I think both Djokovic and Murray could and should beat Nadal at this Wimbledon should they beat. If friggin Rosol can do it, I am not doubting top tier talent.
     
  44. pds999

    pds999 Hall of Fame

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    Nadal's return is hugely underrated. Leads the tour this year on return games won.
     
  45. pds999

    pds999 Hall of Fame

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    Exactly. Some of these posts are absurd.
     
  46. FreeBird

    FreeBird Legend

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    Daddy is home...... :twisted:
    Seems like a lot happened in this one week absence. :)

    Back on the topic, I am one of those who attribute Murray's achievements in 2012 to Nadal's absence. Murray was such a mental midget against Nadal. That said, now since the monkey is off Murray's back, he will beat Nadal in 4 sets.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2013
  47. pds999

    pds999 Hall of Fame

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    It is absurd how people are elevating Murray suddenly. He isn't winning Wimbledon this year.
     
  48. FreeBird

    FreeBird Legend

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    Murray can't consecutively defeat 2 of the Big 3 in a 'Best of 5' tourney. But, if he has to face only one, Wimby 2013 can become 'The conquered fortress' for him.
     
  49. pds999

    pds999 Hall of Fame

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    For me he is third favourite at best, maybe fourth. Mentally still goes walkabout far too much. He cant do that against Nadal or Djokovic.
     
  50. FreeBird

    FreeBird Legend

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    He finds it difficult to cope with Nadal and Djokovic. Nadal v/s Murray would be the most fascinating match up. And if QF, priceless. :twisted:
     

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