If Nadal has more total slams but Federer has more of each, who is GOAT?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by McEnroeisanartist, Jan 6, 2014.

  1. McEnroeisanartist

    McEnroeisanartist Hall of Fame

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    If Federer stays on 17 Grand Slams and Nadal ends up with 18 Grand Slams say 2 Australian Opens, 10 French Opens, 3 Wimbledons, and 3 U.S. Opens and 0 ATP Tour Finals (this doesn't sound that far fetched), would Nadal be considered GOAT when Federer would have 2 more Australian Opens, 9 less French Opens, 4 more Wimbledons, 2 more U.S. Opens, and 6 more ATP Tour Finals.
     
    #1
  2. sam_p

    sam_p Professional

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    Yes. Next thread please.
     
    #2
  3. LazyNinja19

    LazyNinja19 Hall of Fame

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    Last month this OP created a thread stating that "Fed has won a title in every month of the year, Rafa hasn't".
    And in the very first week of Jan, Rafa won a title(for the first time in January) and disproved the OP's claim!

    Keep 'em coming! :lol:
     
    #3
  4. m2nk2

    m2nk2 Hall of Fame

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    Yes.

    But anyway, Borg is still the goat. Borg won 40% of all slams he entered. Federer and Nadal are way below that, even though their era is easier.
     
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  5. Omega_7000

    Omega_7000 Hall of Fame

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    Neither .
     
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  6. GoaLaSSo

    GoaLaSSo Semi-Pro

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    If Nadal got that many more slams I would assume he would also be extending all of his other records as well. He would probably end up with a crazy number of masters, at least 1 WTF, additional weeks at number 1 and/or year end number 1s, and possibly hit double or triple career grand slams.

    If the above was the case he would for sure be greater than Federer. If by some freak occurrence Nadal didn't win any more masters and didn't get any more time at number 1, but ended up with 18 slams, it would be pretty hard to differentiate between the two. Nadal would surely be the stronger player of the rivalry, but would he be better against the field?

    There is a crowd of people that believe slams are all that matter, a group of people that think slams and time at number one are really important, and a group of people that think olympic golds and davis cups are almost as good as slams (wut...).

    I would probably say that Nadal would be the greater player with 18 slams, but he would not be the GOAT. His performance would ensure the GOAT debate rages on until someone clearly passes Federer and himself in multiple areas.

    I only hope both end up with the same amount of slams and similar looking records so TTW can forever remain a keyboard warrior battleground of Nadturds and Fednatics. :twisted:
     
    #6
  7. kingofclay

    kingofclay Professional

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    18>17 No?

    Rafa already goat
     
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  8. Backspin1183

    Backspin1183 Legend

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    Do you really think that Rafa will win 18 slams?

    If he does and Fed stays at 17, I don't know about GOAT but Nadal would be considered greater than Federer by over 90% of people.
     
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  9. El Diablo

    El Diablo Hall of Fame

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    Hmmm, more slams for Nadal but more equally distributed for Federer? I guess we'd then have to look at the two players head to head.
     
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  10. TheNatural

    TheNatural Legend

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    Rafa already has a strong case for goat.By the time Rafa is done, Fed will just be known as the best wtf player of his era.
     
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  11. Backspin1183

    Backspin1183 Legend

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    That's sad. OP loved talking about Nadal's title less months :(
     
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  12. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    If Rafa gets 2 Australian Opens, 10 French Opens, 3 Wimbledons, and 3 U.S. Opens , then we can ignore the WTF.

    Nadal will be the GOAT of tennis records.

    Federer will still be the greatest player in terms of talent, style, elegance, variety and domination.
     
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  13. Forehand Of Doom

    Forehand Of Doom Banned

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  14. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    Oh, you think moon balls , grunting and guarding the baseline from 10 ft behind makes it pretty ?
     
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  15. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Disagree. The next criteria is to compare the ranking status and all ATP performance/results.
     
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  16. Forehand Of Doom

    Forehand Of Doom Banned

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    I was laughing at the domination part mostly. :lol:
     
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  17. phnx90

    phnx90 Hall of Fame

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    With that split, I would be hesitant to call Nadal the de facto GOAT. Then again, to me, slam count isn't everything in the GOAT discussion.
     
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  18. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    This is such a tough scenario. One guy will have most majors, the other guy will have most weeks nr.1.

    Nobody can be the goat, if this happens. At least by my opinion. I would consider them equals.

    For one guy to be clearly better, he has to have more majors and weeks nr.1. And the gap has to be big. I mean if Rafa ends up with 16 majors and 299 weeks, the gap is too small for me to consider Fed clearly the best.

    I need at least 2 majors gap and 50 weeks, to make a clear distinction, otherwise it's too damn close.

    I don't know how Rafa can even get to 18, considering he doesn't have streaks like Fed. If he does, we will have one crazy paradox.

    One guy with more weeks nr.1 and most records, but the other guy with majors record and the h2h. How can this happen?

    They will be close enough, so this arguments will go forever.
     
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  19. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    If Rafa has more slams, then Federer cannot have more slams of each.

    In your scenario Rafa would have a double career slam and at least three slams on every surface (and an unprecedented 10 slams in a slam). It's look pretty good to me :)
     
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  20. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    Please see win-loss record from 2004-2007.
     
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  21. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    I think we need to consider Djokovic factor too. If Djokovic ends up with more weeks nr.1 than Rafa, I would be very reluctant to call Rafa the goat.

    I mean a goat when two guys from your era spend more time on top than you?

    But if Rafa ends up with 18 majors, that means, he won't win any final he enters. So, he would probably have to make 10 more finals, semis, quarters to reach 18. So, with this, he will probably end up with more weeks nr.1 than Nole.
     
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  22. chandu612

    chandu612 Guest

    Lol...hit the nail on the head.

    If the most successful is not the criteria like *******s been saying for a while, Nadal is the GOAT already
     
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  23. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Not so fast. Slam count is the most important criteria but don't dismiss other achievements. Jordan is the greatest not only because of his 6 rings, but other achievements and records that he has over the other great players.


    PLAYER CRITERIA

    * Number of Major Titles won
    * Overall performance at Grand Slam Events
    * Player Ranking
    * Performance at ATP/WTA events
    * Win/loss record at Davis & Fed Cup events
    * Records held or broken
    * Intangibles(contribution to tennis)


    Player of the decade
    2000 - 2009: Federer (15 slams)
    1990 - 1999: Sampras (12 slams)
    1980 - 1989: Lendl (7 slams)
    1970 - 1979: Borg (8 slams)
    1960 - 1969: Laver (11 slams, but 6 were amateur)

    GS finals
    1. Roger Federer 24*
    2. Ivan Lendl 19
    3. Pete Sampras 18
    = Rafael Nadal 18*
    5. Björn Borg 16
    6. Jimmy Connors 15
    = Andre Agassi 15
    8. Novak Djokovic 12*
    9. John McEnroe 11
    = Mats Wilander 11
    = Stefan Edberg 11

    Consecutive GS finals
    1. Roger Federer 10*
    2. Roger Federer 8

    3. Rafael Nadal 5*
    4. Andre Agassi 4
    = Rod Laver 4
    = Novak Djokovic 4*
    7. Jimmy Connors 3
    = Andy Murray 3*
    = Björn Borg 3
    = Björn Borg 3
    = Björn Borg 3
    = Ivan Lendl 3
    = John McEnroe 3
    = Ivan Lendl 3
    = Ivan Lendl 3
    = Mats Wilander 3
    = Jim Courier 3
    = Jim Courier 3
    = Pete Sampras 3
    = Rafael Nadal 3*


    GS semi-finals
    1. Roger Federer 33*
    2. Jimmy Connors 31
    3. Ivan Lendl 28
    4. Andre Agassi 26
    5. Pete Sampras 23
    6. Rafael Nadal 21*
    = Novak Djokovic 21*
    7. John McEnroe 19
    = Stefan Edberg 19
    9. Boris Becker 18
    10. Björn Borg 17


    Consecutive GS semi-finals
    1. Roger Federer 23*
    2. Novak Djokovic 14*
    3. Ivan Lendl 10
    4. Ivan Lendl 6
    = Nadal 6
    6. Novak Djokovic 5*
    = Andy Murray 5*
    = Boris Becker 5
    9. Roger Federer 4*
    = Rod Laver 4
    = Tony Roche 4
    = John McEnroe 4
    = Andre Agassi 4
    = Jim Courer 4
    = Nadal 4*


    GS quarter-finals
    1. Jimmy Connors 41
    2. Roger Federer 40*(41 if not for walk-over in 2004)
    3. Agassi 36
    4. Ivan Lendl 34
    5. Pete Sampras 29
    6. John McEnroe 26
    = Stefan Edberg 26
    7. Novak Djokovic 26*
    8. Rafael Nadal 25*
    9. Boris Becker 23
    10. Björn Borg 21

    Consecutive GS quarter-finals
    1. Roger Federer 36*
    2. Ivan Lendl 14
    = 3. Novak Djokovic 18*
    4. Rafael Nadal 11
    5. = Andy Murray 11*
    6. Pete Sampras 10
    7. Ivan Lendl 7
    = Mats Wilander 7
    10. Andre Agassi 6
    = Rafael Nadal 6*

    All Four Slams Per Year
    Rod Laver 1969

    Three Slams Per Year
    Jimmy Connors 1974
    Mats Wilander 1988
    Roger Federer 2004
    Roger Federer 2006
    Roger Federer 2007

    Rafael Nadal 2010
    Novak Djokovic 2011


    All Four Finals Per Year
    Roger Federer 2006
    Roger Federer 2007
    Roger Federer 2009

    Rod Laver 1969

    All Four Semi-finals Per Year
    Rod Laver 1969
    Ivan Lendl 1987
    Roger Federer 2005
    Roger Federer 2006
    Roger Federer 2007
    Roger Federer 2008
    Roger Federer 2009

    Rafael Nadal 2008
    Novak Djokovic 2011
    Novak Djokovic 2012
    Novak Djokovic 2013
    Andy Murray 2011

    Most consecutive matches won at one Grand Slam event:
    1. Björn Borg (Wimbledon), 41
    2. Roger Federer (Wimbledon), 40(41 if not for walk-over in 2007)
    = Roger Federer (US Open), 40

    4. Pete Sampras (Wimbledon), 31
    = Rafael Nadal (French Open), 31


    Most Grand Slam match wins
    1. Roger Federer 259*
    2. Jimmy Connors 233
    3. Andre Agassi 224
    4. Ivan Lendl 222
    5. Pete Sampras 204

    Other Stuff:

    Year-End Championships
    1. Roger Federer 6*
    2. Ivan Lendl 5
    = Pete Sampras 5
    4. Ilie Nastase 3
    = John McEnroe 3
    = Boris Becker 3
    = Novak Djokovic 3

    Most Year-End Championship finals
    1. Ivan Lendl 9
    2. Federer 8*
    = Boris Becker 6
    4. Pete Sampras 6
    5. Ilie Năstase 4
    = Bjorn Borg 4
    = John McEnroe 4
    = Andre Agassi 4
    9. Lleyton Hewitt 3

    Most Weeks at #1
    1. Roger Federer 302*
    2. Pete Sampras 286
    3. Ivan Lendl 270
    4. Jimmy Connors 268
    5. John McEnroe 170
    6. Björn Borg 109
    7. Rafael Nadal 102+*
    8. Novak Djokovic 99+*
    9. Andre Agassi 101
    10. Lleyton Hewitt 80


    Consecutive Weeks at #1
    1. Roger Federer (1) 237
    2. Jimmy Connors (1) 160
    3. Ivan Lendl (1) 157
    4. Pete Sampras (1) 102
    5. Jimmy Connors (2) 84
    6. Pete Sampras (2) 82
    7. Ivan Lendl (2) 80
    8. Lleyton Hewitt (1) 75
    9. John McEnroe (1) 58
    10. Rafael Nadal (1) 56

    Year End #1
    1. Sampras 6
    2. Federer 5*
    = Connors 5
    4. McEnroe 4
    = Lendl 4
    6. Nadal 3*


    Highest Season Winning Percentage
    1. John McEnroe (1984) .965 82–3
    2. Jimmy Connors (1974) .959 93–4
    3. Roger Federer (2005) .953 81–4
    4. Roger Federer (2006) .948 92–5

    5. Björn Borg (1979) .933 84–6
    6. Ivan Lendl (1986) .925 74–6
    7. Roger Federer (2004) .925 74–6
    8. Ivan Lendl (1985) .923 84–7
    9. Ivan Lendl (1982) .922 106–9
    10. Björn Borg (1980) .921 70–6
    = Novak Djokovic (2011) 0.921 70-6
    12. Rafael Nadal (2013) .915 75-7

    Most ATP Titles
    1. Jimmy Connors 109
    2. Ivan Lendl 94
    3. Roger Federer 77*
    = John McEnroe 77
    5. Björn Borg 64
    = Pete Sampras 64
    7. Guillermo Vilas 62
    8. Andre Agassi 60
    9. = Rafael Nadal 60*
    10. Boris Becker 49

    Most Master Series or equivalent win
    1. Rafael Nadal 26
    2. Ivan Lendl 22
    3. Roger Federer 21
    4. John McEnroe 19
    5. Andre Agassi 17
    = Jimmny Connors 17
    8. Novak Djokovic 16
    9. Bjorn Borg 15
    10. Boris Becker 13
    11. Pete Sampras 11

    Consecutive Match Win Streak
    1. Björn Borg 49 1978
    2. Björn Borg 48 1979–80
    3. Guillermo Vilas 46 1977
    4. Ivan Lendl 44 1981–82
    5. Novak Djokovic 43 2010–11
    6. John McEnroe 42 1984
    7. Roger Federer 41 2006–07
    8. Thomas Muster 35 1995
    = Roger Federer 35 2005
    10.Jimmy Connors 33 1974
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
    #23
  24. sam_p

    sam_p Professional

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    Many of Federer's records are "losers" records. I am not remotely impressed by making GS quarter or semifinals when you are starting with a high seed and given the lack of major obstacles to reach them. It demonstrates consistency, but not "greatness".

    We get that you are the leading acolyte of the temple of Fed. It will be sad for you when he is no longer acknowledged as the GOAT, but make no mistake, that day is coming.

     
    #24
  25. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    I thought consistency is greatness. Otherwise peak Safin is goat :).
     
    #25
  26. sam_p

    sam_p Professional

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    Consistency is one characteristic of greatness, but I would maintain that it is consistently winning tournaments that is important. Clearly Federer has done this, so has Nadal. I find the trumpeting of reaching the quarterfinals of slams to be curiously uninspiring since we know he lost a great many of those tournaments. It demonstrates that he is among the top 8 players over a great period of time and that he has been lucky enough to not miss tournaments due to injury.
     
    #26
  27. McEnroeisanartist

    McEnroeisanartist Hall of Fame

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    I take issue with the word lucky. Federer has trained extremely hard, schedules tournaments very well, and works at his technique to not be so hard on his body. That is not luck.
     
    #27
  28. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    There is surely at least an element of luck in getting injured or not.
     
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  29. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    I'm not talking about quarters here. But 18 out of 19 major finals. 24 consecutive finals won across all surfaces. And 302 weeks.

    And he still won the most and was the runner up the most times. So Fed leads in both categories. The only one with 24 finals and the only one who won 17 finals. So, I don't know why you make it seem, like Fed is only consistent not dominant. No, he is both. Most dominant and most consistent.

    Well, sorry, but we can't use the luck argument. This gets into religious debates. We will get nowhere. Fed fans can also say Fed got mono, bad back, slow surfaces. I like to deal only with facts, not speculations.
     
    #29
  30. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Or getting mono and bad back, or surfaces being slowed down.

    But those arguments are silly on both sides. Saying that either guy would have won more or less based on luck is just a religious speculation.
     
    #30
  31. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    "Religious" arguments?.
    Fed said the slower courts have helped him too :)
     
    #31
  32. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Just because Fed success on slow court doesn't mean it's best suit for him. It's been said for the upteempth time that he would have achieved more had the ATP never tinker with the surface. Slow down the court means slowing down his level of dominance.
     
    #32
  33. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Well, Murray said Fed would still be nr.1 if courts were faster. So, you see even top guys can use religious speculations.
     
    #33
  34. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    Nadal because he has the domination over Federer throughout his career and the Masters record in his back pocket

    Nadal's resume is balanced enough.. Ok he only has 1 AO title, Well Fed only has 1 French Open
     
    #34
  35. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    Nope, sorry, not what Fed said. He said they've helped him. Which surely must mean he thinks he's done better than he would have otherwise.

    I'd like to see Murray's quote in order to judge it...
     
    #35
  36. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    LOL he leaves out Davis Cup and Olympic singles titles. He leaves out most wins at a particular major. He leaves out h2h vs top 10 opponents, most consecutive wins on a particular surface etc.

    Those records are regarding actually WINNING but includes crap like amount of QF and then consecutive QF to inflate it even further. No one cares about those type of records except them. He even had "most consecutive slam appearances" at one stage before everyone bagged him for it and he took it off out of embarrassment lol.

    Not to mention he has GS finals listed twice, but hasn't actually listed most GS titles...
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2014
    #36
  37. drm025

    drm025 Hall of Fame

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    You serious? How many times have you posted these records? Run out of arguments? Why don't you just join the conversation? You're not showing us anything we don't already know. So you're just wasting space.
     
    #37
  38. firepanda

    firepanda Professional

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    Silly question. Nadal.
     
    #38
  39. drm025

    drm025 Hall of Fame

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    True, and while consistency alone doesn't make you great, it is a part of it, and it is one of Fed's claims to being GOAT. But consistency is not everything. Consecutive QFs? The highest seed he had to beat in that run was #13...... Hardly greatness... Consistency? Yes.

    And any of the stats that are cumulative, like number of titles, can't be used against Nadal because he is 5 years younger. So if the point of these stats is to compare Fed to Nadal, most of them just aren't relevant.
     
    #39
  40. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    Weeks at No. 1 only tell half the story. That is like saying Courier is better than Becker because has more weeks at No. 1 than he does.
     
    #40
  41. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Davis Cup is a TEAM sport, not an individual. Olympics is not the same as the ATP events because players are playing for their country and all gold medal have the same value. Take up to the Olympic committee if you don't like it.

    H2H against 1 player doesn't equate to winning titles. It's about beating all the players in front of you to earn the titles. A winning H2H will not grant you an additional title(e.g. WTF :))

    You and Nadal fans don't care about consistency and all the QF but the experts put weight on them. Consistency/dominance is what made records possible. All great athletes from other sports(Gretzky, Jordan) get goat title because of the records they hold in their respective sport.
     
    #41
  42. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    2012 WTF Roger said they need to speed up the court because almost all the event throughout the year are slow. Roger said he can't play all court tennis because it's too slow, and it's tailor for grinding/defensive style. Roger is best when he play attacking/shot making game. And since the slow courts reduces his ability, he can't dominate like he use to. The conditions have shifted in Nadal favor.
     
    #42
  43. drm025

    drm025 Hall of Fame

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    You say consistency/dominance like it's the same thing, but it's not. It doesn't mean much without the titles which Roger has and gets credit for, but a QF streak alone does not equate to dominance. You can't say "Well he won a bunch of slams during that streak, so the streak was dominant". It is the titles that equate to dominance, not the streak. The streak equates to consistency.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2014
    #43
  44. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Davis Cup is team, but Nadal was the reason that team was as successful as it was, without him they wouldn't have won as many Davis Cup titles. All the greats rate it highly.

    Olympics in singles is a massive achievement. Your boy has a dream of playing until Rio 2016, why would he want that if it's not important?

    Murray rated his Olympics win higher than his US Open win, I don't agree with that, but he's a top player and that's how he felt about it.

    Andre won it in 1996, he wanted it so bad, he even bought his trainer's mother a house after winning it to celebrate.


    Excuse me, but I clearly said h2h vs TOP 10. That's not one player, that's against the very best players on the tour combined.

    And a consecutive QF streak or slam appearance won't grant you additional titles either.

    Experts put more weight into Davis Cup and Olympic singles gold than QF streaks.

    QF streak is consistency.

    22-10 is dominance.

    :lol:
     
    #44
  45. adil1972

    adil1972 Professional

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    whoever wins more slams is the ultimate GOAT, the rest are mini GOATs
     
    #45
  46. furryballs

    furryballs Banned

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    drug consumption is key in this argument
     
    #46
  47. furryballs

    furryballs Banned

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    and no i cant prove he did......but can you prove he didnt?
     
    #47
  48. Messarger

    Messarger Hall of Fame

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    I don't think Nadal can be the GOAT even if he won 18 slams and Fed remains at 17. How can a GOAT not have a one handed back hand and play at the baseline? If Nadal wants to become the GOAT he must do the following:

    Win Wimbledon by serve and volleying on EVERY POINT. Chip and charge to the net each time he returns serve.
    Hold the record for fastest ace in the history of mankind.
    Win an exo against Mike Agassi's ball machine.
    Keep some wood rackets in his bag and play with them when converting break points.
    Hit a continental grip forehand during warm ups.

    Only if he is able to do all these will he cement himself a place in tennis history as the GOAT.
     
    #48
  49. Chico

    Chico Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2013
    Messages:
    9,197
    Please stop with these silly topics. It is a moot point since Nadal will never come close to winning more slams than Federer. Sorry, but it is not going to happen.
     
    #49
  50. bigred1910

    bigred1910 Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    245
    i would love to see one of the pros pull out a woody one day in a tourny.
     
    #50

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