If Nadal has more total slams but Federer has more of each, who is GOAT?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by McEnroeisanartist, Jan 6, 2014.

  1. objectivity

    objectivity Banned

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    wait a minute, what complex mathematics did you employ to get that relationship? actually i think you are overly tough on federer's dominance. i would actually think 52 weeks at no. 1 = at least 2 majors. the statistics seem to suggest that winning 2 a year can almost guarantee a player will stay as no. 1.
     
  2. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah, sorry, I made a huge mistake typing too fast.

    1 major = 13 weeks.

    So being ranked nr.1 for 13 weeks is the equivalent of winning a major. Sounds fair. Both is very hard to achieve.

    Every player wants to win majors and be nr.1.

    Tennis has two races:
    -rankings (consistency)
    -majors (domination)

    So, greatness is consistency + domination.

    That's why we have such debates. Because you can be dominant and not consistent but you can also be very consistent and not as dominant.

    I mean some greats have a lot of majors, but lack in weeks nr.1. Other greats have a lot of weeks nr.1, but lack majors titles.

    Borg vs Lendl is a very good example.
     
  3. objectivity

    objectivity Banned

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    they don't have to be in the same era, to have their dominant playing days overlap at parts. but that is completely beside the point. i have always thought that nadal's "greatness" (and i hate to use that word) stems far less from his H2H against federer or his slam counts etc, but his ability to challenge both Federer -- a champion 5 years his senior, AND his own peers like djokovic. he was able to step up to federer at his prime and give him a run. and as federer aged, nadal is fighting the good fight against djokovic and co. its remarkable. there are very examples of this. federer to his credit also has that quality. i have always felt that federer's greatest achievement is really that indian summer of 2012. that was amazing.

    and H2H record is just that, a statistic. period. and objectively, nadal has been a better player H2H to federer. his game is tailored to beat federer. period. that's all.
     
  4. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    I made a mistake. 13 weeks = 1 majors.

    And tennis has two separate races. That's why it's confusing and people argue all the time.

    We have guys fighting for major titles. But they also fight for nr.1 ranking.
     
  5. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Borg won 5 Wimbledon. How many Wimbledon Lendl has won ?
     
  6. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Nobody is diminishing Nadal's greatness here. Why do people think that when I say Fed is greater than Rafa, that this means like I'm saying Rafa is average or something?

    We compare great vs great here. Not great vs average. Just because I think Rafa is nr.2 or nr.3 in the open era, that doesn't mean I'm diminishing his greatness.

    But every great can't be nr.1. I mean usually there will always be some guy who will be slightly ahead. For now that is Federer.

    Why do Nadal fans think that Fed being goat is diminishing Nadal or attacking Nadal's greatness? I'm a big Rafa's fan.

    But I can find faults with both.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2014
  7. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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  8. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    A 4 slam difference means less the more slams we're talking about. 0-4 big difference. 13-17 not much.

    I wouldn't say the weeks at number 1 are similar, yet over 100 weeks is still a considerable amount, and Nadal also has other numbers above Federer, so overall indeed their numbers/records are similar.
     
  9. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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  10. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    4 slams is a big difference no matter how many slams you have. And Federer has plenty of other things of Rafa too, but those are the big metrics and Federer leads both by a considerable margin. They're not similar.
     
  11. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Even Nadal has many stats behind Sampras...slam, WTF, weeks at #, YE #1.

    To say Nadal has similar stats as Federer is comical.

    That's like Nole fans saying his stats are similar to Nadal.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2014
  12. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    I mean Rafa has only 3 more majors on HC than Davy. Fed has 6 more majors on HC than Rafa.

    Rafa and Davy are way closer to each other than Fed and Rafa. At least on HC.
     
  13. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yes, and Nadal is still behind Federer in most stats.

    However, Nadal(and Nole) has made his marks on my list in the past years so kudos to him.
     
  14. drm025

    drm025 Hall of Fame

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    Maybe that's why people rate him higher, but why is that so important? Because tennis used to be played on mostly grass? What does that have to do with today's game? In today's game grass has the least representation on the tour, and either way all the top players play all the slams. They are all worth the same TODAY.
     
  15. drm025

    drm025 Hall of Fame

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    Davydenko has made ZERO GS finals. Huge difference.
     
  16. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

    It's not at all the same. Sampras' stats are also similar, which is why he (and Fed and Rafa) are widely considered first tier all time greats, while Djokovic is not.
     
  17. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Exactly. That makes Rafa's HC record against him even worse.

    I mean Fed fans can at least say, he lost vs clay goat. No shame losing vs Rafa.

    Isn't Fed's losing h2h vs Rafa a positive thing? I mean Fed won 17 majors + made all those extra GS finals.

    Isn't 17+6 better than 17+0 and preserving the h2h? I never get this penalizing Fed for his consistency and extra effort.
     
  18. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Lendl without Wimbledon put him down even further against Borg. Ever notice Mac, Connor, Agassi are place above Lendl despite he a better career than them? They all won Wimbledon.
     
  19. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    People are so confused about the h2h. This is actually a good thing for Fed.

    17 majors + 6 EXTRA finals. How come some people don't get this simple fact?

    Sampras fans love to penalize Fed for making all those RG finals. The irony :).
     
  20. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    But Lendl has incredible record in weeks nr.1.

    Mac, Connors, Agassi are Americans. So, of course they will place Lendl below :).
     
  21. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Facts are not opinion.

    Federer's stats > Sampras and Nadal.

    Believe what you want to make you happy but no one in their right mind would say they are similar.
     
  22. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    It makes it less significant.

    Fed is both rewarded and penalized.
     
  23. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    Many people do already. You couldn't say he is a goat candidate or a tier 1 goat otherwise.
     
  24. drm025

    drm025 Hall of Fame

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    No, it means that Nadal and Davydenko have never played in a huge match (best of 5) and a stage where both were playing their best tennis. If you had to pick one match that would best indicate whose top level is better, it would be a GS final.

    The extra GS finals add to Federer's consistency, but take away from his dominance that he has lost so many to Nadal.
     
  25. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    That's true. Biased American just like they had Venus above Justine when Justine won 3 out of 4 slam and had a stellar career.

    Back to Fed vs. Nadal. Since slams(especially Wimbledon) and ranking are so big, Fed has both. Unlike the players I've mentioned above only has one of the two.:)

    No way Nadal and Fed have similar numbers. That's the point.
     
  26. beast of mallorca

    beast of mallorca Legend

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    ^ Americans are the best, just sayin'. :twisted:
    As for the rest, we'll see after Rafa hangs his racket......
     
  27. drm025

    drm025 Hall of Fame

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    Woah, wait a second.... Did you not just get done talking about the importance of Wimbledon? Venus - 5 Wimbledons, Justine - 0. Sound familiar?

    To clarify, I'm not saying that necessarily makes Venus better.
     
  28. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    being tier 1 doesn't equate similar stats.

    Nadal is far behind Federer - 302 weeks, 17 slams, 6 WTF and all the records he owns.

    Funny how Nole fan like Chico argue that Nole has an era and Nadal doesn't you guys think he's crazy.

    Your argument is just as silly.
     
  29. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Exactly. The experts had Venus > Justine because of her 5 Wimbledon.

    That answer your question about Borg vs. Lendl.
     
  30. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Yes. It's all and only about the slam total.

    Pete said so.
     
  31. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Ok, now this is different. Now you changed the rules saying only h2h at majors matters. And you changed it to finals only.

    Ok, this is at least more solid argument. And here we have a huge problem. Fed in his 15 GS finals didn't get to play Rafa. So we weren't able to check their levels. I mean 5 years apart is just enough, they both didn't play at their peak at the same time. So, Rafa winning could be just evolution. New generation taking over.

    Well, Fed only lost 7 GS finals. Rafa lost five. So they are pretty close. And I'm sure Rafa will probably lose a couple more finals.

    That's the only difference. Fed has better h2h vs the field than Rafa. Rafa just has his losses scattered more. Fed has his losses concentrated more vs one guy. That's the only difference. But overall, Fed still leads the field.
     
  32. drm025

    drm025 Hall of Fame

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    But you said they were biased. Implying that you disagree...
     
  33. Kenshin

    Kenshin Semi-Pro

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    You are wrong. Fed's head-to-head against the field in his prime was amazing but Nadal's head-to-head against the field is even better. You can't twist the facts.
     
  34. drm025

    drm025 Hall of Fame

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    No, I didn't say that's all that matters.... I said if you had to pick one match. Meaning GS finals matter the most, but they are not all that matter. Next would come GS SF, QF, and so on. Most GS matches will matter more than non-GS matches just because they are GSs, but secondly because they are best of 5, meaning that the better player overall will more likely win. Upsets are less likely.
     
  35. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    I disagree because I really believe Justine is greater than Venus.

    However let say they both had exactly the same resume but one exception is Venus won one Wimbledon but Justine won 1 AO. Who's greater? Venus is.
     
  36. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Then why doesn't Rafa have most weeks nr.1, if that's the case? Isn't nr.1 a guy with best h2h against the field?
     
  37. tennisblog365

    tennisblog365 New User

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    It's all in the eyes of the fan ;D. Nadal has a big winning record against Federer though. If Nadal can at least equal Federer's grandslams, than yes, we can say that Nadal is GOAT.
     
  38. Kenshin

    Kenshin Semi-Pro

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    It's quite simple. Nadal had to compete with prime-Federer and prime Djokovic for most of his life on tour. He had a lot of injuries to stop him from competing.
     
  39. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Lol. Until this point you were making a lot of sense. You lost it now :).

    Now you invoke weak era (circular) and injury excuses (religious speculation).

    Yeah in the end you are reduced to using non logic, if you want to argue against Fed's numbers.

    This is the only way to argue 13+120 weeks is greater than 17+302.

    But we are all humans. Emotions always prevail.
     
  40. sam_p

    sam_p Professional

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    6 extra finals, which he lost to the player that owns him...

    Can't be GOAT if you are owned by your chief rival, simple logic, irrefutable.
     
  41. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Ok, I'll bite. Who is the goat then and why?
     
  42. Kenshin

    Kenshin Semi-Pro

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    Nope. It is the truth. By the way, you are the one who lost the argument by using weak era??? and by claiming injury as religous speculation.
     
  43. Kenshin

    Kenshin Semi-Pro

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    There is NO GOAT because we can't compare different eras. You have to accept it.
     
  44. sam_p

    sam_p Professional

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    Are you advocating that we add some arbitrary number to Fed's slam count based on time at -#1? If so, that is whacked and a great example of a double counting statistical bias. Fed has those weeks because he won titles, adding titles because of the weeks is double counting.

    As well, to all this bs about weeks at 1, let's add total number of significant titles won. I'll even agree that the WTF is 1.5x of a M1000. Nadal will be leaving Fed in the dust there too soon with his tendency to win 3-5 per year...
     
  45. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Well, people add arbitrary numbers to h2h all the time.

    Some say Rafa now is greater. Some say Rafa only needs 15 majors, some say 16, some say it can be used as a tie-breaker.

    Even Nadal fans can't decide.

    Well, if Rafa wins 5 per year, he will probably be nr.1 more weeks also so he will end up with more weeks nr.1 too. In that case he is greater at least on paper.
     
  46. gregor.b

    gregor.b Professional

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    Pretty sure 18 beats 17, but don't quote me on that.

    Also, if it ends up at 17 each, I reckon Rafa has the edge due to the H2H, no?
     
  47. tennisfan87

    tennisfan87 Rookie

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    Personally I don't believe in this GOAT nonsense and think it is the root of all evil :)

    In my eyes there will never be a goat no matter how much someone's accomplished and that is independent of the possibility Rafa catches Fed until the end of their careers.

    Why don't you just wait and see what both of them have accomplished when their careers are done? Nobody's saying Rafa is the goat as of now just that he has the possibility of being one when he finishes his career.So the potential is there, that's all we're saying.

    When you compare their numbers at the same age, you will see that they're awfully close.The only thing Rafa is lacking at the same age compared to Fed are weeks at number 1, year - end number 1 and WTF titles ( but Rafa will probably have many more masters 1000 than Fed and I hope he wins atleast 1 WTF - that should be enough in that regard).

    Here's the comparision at the same age:

    Federer - Nadal

    slam titles 13 - 13, slam finals 18 - 18, finals record 13-5 - 13-5

    grand slam match wins 162 - 171

    total titles 57 - 60

    total match wins 617 - 658

    ranking 2 - 1

    weeks at number 1 237 - 115 (the biggest difference)

    year - end number 1 4 - 3

    WTF 4 - 0 (2 finals)

    masters 1000 14 - 26

    So they're very close when you compare their stats at the same age. The most important things where Rafa's behind Fed are weeks at number 1 and WTF titles but he has many more masters 1000 and could win 1 WTF until the end of his career and I think that would be enough in that regard.

    Where he could tie Fed are number of slam titles, maybe even finals (probably), year - end number 1, total titles so the only thing are the weeks at number 1.

    So it's definitely close and give him some time.When both of them finish their careers, you can compare their stats. As of now, Fed is obviously greater but Rafa has a decent shot at equalling some of his numbers (the most important ones). And maybe Federer wins even more slams, who knows.

    Be patient people :)
     
  48. sam_p

    sam_p Professional

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    Clearly not Federer, that is my position. Clearly he is a fantastic player, but he is NOT GOAT. He is owned over his career by his chief rival and has never solved the problem.
     
  49. sam_p

    sam_p Professional

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    You just jumped the shark my friend...
     
  50. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah, you are speculating that Nadal has less weeks nr.1 due to injury. You apply that without an injury he would have more. That is religious speculation.

    You said Nadal had to deal with Djokovic and Federer. Like Federer didn't have to deal with Nadal and Djokovic and other guys too.

    Applying based on circular reasoning, that Nadal had tougher competition.
     

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