If Nadal has more total slams but Federer has more of each, who is GOAT?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by McEnroeisanartist, Jan 6, 2014.

  1. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    But whether you like it or not, most experts have them in this order:

    1 Roger Federer
    2 Rod Laver
    3 Pete Sampras
    4 Rafael Nadal
    5 Bjorn Borg

    Nadal will likely to move ahead of Sampras.
     
  2. helloworld

    helloworld Hall of Fame

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    Classic excuse from Fed fanatics. I never get tired of listening to this joke. :lol:
     
  3. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Can't refute my point Sampras fanatic. :lol:
     
  4. helloworld

    helloworld Hall of Fame

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    You calling me fanatic?? I'm not the one with TMF logo all over your face! :oops:
     
  5. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    he has a good chance of losing to davydenko ..


    What an utter load of cr*p .... clay being fed's worst surface has to do with his style of play, NOTHING whatsoever to do with rafa. the only reason why you mention that is to pump up your boy rafa.

    Fed at his peak would've beaten both nadal and nole on slow HC, no question.

    His winning % is the lowest on clay ( even if you exclude the matches vs rafa ) ... he has 4 wins, 1 final and 5 other semis at the AO, 10 consecutive semis at the AO....

    if rafa wasn't there, the CC field would be much weaker, so your point is irrelevant.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2014
  6. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    sorry, you cannot be not mentally prepared for the biggest prize in tennis.

    weren't you the one making 'mental excuses' for nadal's AO 07 ( citing his match vs murray ) and yet nadal battled through tougher circumstances in wimbledon 07 and played his best in the final vs federer . LOL !

    yeah, because those guys who make it deep don't improve their form at all. roddick didn't beat better players than the lucky loser to make it till the final ? LOL


    from 5 all in the first till 1-4 in the 2nd, federer committed quite a few UEs, he cut down on them, which is why he won the 2nd and the 3rd sets

    he wasn't pushing or moonballing waiting for novak to commit an error. It was a good rally, ended by a shot that djokovic just missed.


    my opinion is he'd have won both. And yet again, you miss the important point, that is he'd have much higher confidence without federer around.

    and yet, novak was at his peak in 12 and still struggled with past his peak hewitt at the Olympics . Hewitt was very capable of beating him prime to prime.

    and yet again, you show your ignorance focussing solely on the h2h rather than the level of play on grass/fast HC. I said that based on hewitt's level of play on grass and fast HC

    Only and only because nadal didn't play federer at his peak of his powers at the AO or the USO ( at all ) .

    Both the times nadal won at the AO, he was at the peak of his powers ( federer played well in 09 from the baseline, but served utter cr*p )

    nadal at the peak of his powers struggled like hell to win wimbledon 08 and AO 09 ( with federer a step below the peak of his powers ), don't forget
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2014
  7. drm025

    drm025 Hall of Fame

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    Didn't mean to imply that, sorry. My point was that Federer's career has most aligned with Nadal's.
     
  8. drm025

    drm025 Hall of Fame

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    Dude you're taking it too literally. I'm talking about aligning of peak levels, which is what is most relevant. Federer and Nadal's career paths led them to 8 GS finals. Federer and Hewitt have only played one. Were they ever even 1 and 2 together? I don't think so. How long were Federer and Nadal the top 2 in the world?

    Career alignment.
     
  9. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    Yes they were, for half of 2005.
     
  10. drm025

    drm025 Hall of Fame

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    Ok, half a year vs. 5+ years.
     
  11. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    I don't care if we call them from the same generation or not. They're rivals and that's what matters.
     
  12. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yes you are a fanatic.

     
  13. Crisstti

    Crisstti Legend

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    Who adds arbitrary numbers to h2h?. I can only think of a certain fan base who are always subtracting numbers from the h2h (those from a certain surface).

    Of course it does. Otherwise you could put one clearly above another and would not put them in the same tier.

    Btw, Fed is behind Rafa in h2h (not only against each other, but against top 10 players also for example), in career winning %, in masters wins...

    Exactly. His fans cannot intend to just take the positives and ignore the negatives.
     
  14. beast of mallorca

    beast of mallorca Legend

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    ..........................
     
  15. beast of mallorca

    beast of mallorca Legend

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    You are right helloworld.
    TMF is more fanatical than Chico + TDK combined...:-?
     
  16. Silent

    Silent Semi-Pro

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    What if we enjoyed the game ?

    Oh wait...sorry, carry on.
     
  17. sam_p

    sam_p Professional

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    Yes, my opinion, strongly held, supported by facts...
     
  18. Subventricular Zone

    Subventricular Zone Rookie

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    n+x > n, where x>1
     
  19. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    My opinion is also strongly held, supported by facts. Isn't everyones?

    I mean everyone bases this on numbers. I mean people don't put guys like Pete, Borg and Nadal in the conversation out of thin air.
     
  20. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    People always say h2h is worth so and so slams. And say Rafa with less majors is greater. They do it all the time.

    Hey, I already penalized Fed for his extra finals. That's why he doesn't have 24 majors. But 7 extra finals next to 17 majors means a lot. A lot better than losing before and having positive h2h vs Rafa in major finals.

    Yeah, it takes a bit from Fed's domination. But that is included. That's why he doesn't have 24 majors. Rafa also has 13 majors instead of 7, because of those finals.

    I don't know why anyone can think 17+7 is bad? When nobody in history comes even close.

    Seriously, how can any objective person say Fed doesn't have a good case for goat? 302 weeks supports this also.

    Fed fans annoy you. That is the only reason you don't want to admit Fed is the best. Nadal fans know Fed has the best case for goat, but because his fans bash Rafa, they will never admit it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2014
  21. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    About as much chance as peak Fed losing to peak Berdych...

    LMFAO. Peak Fed struggled against a teenage Rafa playing in his first ever Masters final and he would win no question against peak Rafa? He's never even taken a set off Novak at AO since it went plexicushion.

    Peak Fed also lost to teenage Rafa on outdoor HC twice and barely got one win, but that was only due to Rafa choking and nothing to do with the surface LOL.

    Slow, high bouncing HC is a nightmare for Fed against those two players. On clay it was only Nadal that he really struggled with the most. Look at 2011 RG, he took out a red hot Djokovic, not for one second will I believe that he'd be able to do that on a slow high bouncing HC and the proof is really there anyway look at AO11 SF result, junk tennis was his only chance of winning games against Novak.

    RA is not as slow as Plexi. He'd have 6 RGs if Rafa wasn't around. Only 5 AO.

    Yes it would and he'd win 6 RG titles. Just like peak Rafa or Novak wasn't there to stop him at AO from 04-07, he's inflated his slam count by pure luck of being 5-6 years older.
     
  22. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    What's your point? Those three players at the same age would all win less. Less slams available. And peak Rafa and Nole would also have to deal with faster conditions and not only Fed. But Hewitt, Roddick and those guys.

    What's your point? Yes, peak Rafa and Nole weren't there to stop him. Like peak Fed isn't here to stop them for last 4 years.

    I mean if you put them all at the same peak, the same age, all 3 would win less. Taking slams off each other.

    Do you know why? First grade math. Because less majors AVAILABLE.

    If you put many greats in the same era, obviously all will win less.

    I mean what makes you think those guys will win the same vs peak Fed but peak Fed would win 0 majors?

    I mean if you give Nole 2011, Rafa 2010 and Fed 2006 in the same year, they can only win 4 majors combined. DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM?

    So, all can't win 9 majors. So, what, peak Fed would win 0 but those guys would still win 6 majors when only 4 are available?

    So, they would all probably split majors and win less. So, all have their majors inflated.
     
  23. Chico

    Chico Banned

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    Sorry but Graf is not the GOAT.

    BTW not sure why is this thread still going on. Nadal will never reach 18 so all these discussions are moot.
     
  24. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Nadal's mental reasons come from his HC history. Not from playing a lot of matches throughout the season as was the case with Novak at WIM13. He played a lot of matches at that point and both physically and mentally he wasn't right. How else would you explain that performance?

    With WIM it's different as well, Rafa gained his grass confidence when he made the final the previous year.

    He didn't improve much at all though so your point is invalid as usual. He almost lost to Grosjean who wasn't a bad grass court player but nothing special. He then had quite a battle with grass legend Thomas Johansson. His effort in the final wasn't great at all, no way you can say he'd easily beat 2013 Novak lol.


    No he won the second set because Novak crumbled on serve as the set was drawing closer to an end. He committed numerous UEs on serve to hand the break back. He then committed another UE when Fed was serving at 5-6 30-40.

    It was an UE. Deal with it, Fed did nothing except put the ball back in play. Nadal certainly didn't push or moonball his way out of trouble at 4 all if that's what you're implying. And to break in the next game sure Novak hit a couple of UEs, but Nadal also played a couple of great points to EARN it.

    IIRC when serving at 4-2 Novak hit a BH UE, a FH UE and can't remember what happened in the next point but then it was another BH error to give Fed the break back. Fed did SFA.


    Like in 2002 without Fed around? Stop living in a delusional world where Hewitt consistently wins important tournaments he never was good enough to do that with or without Federer.

    Past his peak Hewitt actually played pretty well, but Novak weathered the storm and put him away, handing him a breadstick in the third set. Over 5 sets he'd have a LOT of trouble beating Djokovic post WIM2010 level.

    What his one Wimbledon title in a p*ss weak draw or his one US Open title win is evidence enough to say he'd beat peak Rafa in those majors? LOL.

    Nadal played Federer on his best surface at the absolute peak of his powers and still he struggled to beat him apart from 2006.

    And LOL at Fed being "below the peak of his powers". Don't forget, Nadal was below the peak of his powers at WIM06 and 07. It's fun playing that game :wink:

    Don't try and talk like Fed wasn't playing well in WIM08 because he was just as good as the year before. Of course Rafa struggled like hell to beat him it's Roger Federer in a Wimbledon final who else can say they've beat him in that situation? Peak of his powers Fed never beat Rafa at RG and in fact, couldn't even take 2 sets off him in any of their RG encounters.

    Roger failed to overcome Nadal at RG.

    Nadal didn't fail to overcome Fed at WIM.
    Nadal also didn't fail to overcome Djokovic in a HC major final (which I seem to recall you doubting very much that he ever could again)

    Then when he does you want to whinge that novak played crap when reality is he played better in 2013 and 2010 final against Rafa than he did against Fed from 07-09...
     
  25. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Just a bit off topic. With how many majors and weeks nr.1 do you think Djokovic and Nadal will end up?
     
  26. sam_p

    sam_p Professional

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    Right, I thought we already got to this impasse. You agreed you will hold onto your callow fed fanboy love no matter what happens the rest of their careers. Nadal could win 20 GS, have 299 weeks at #1 and 40 M1000 and win >2/3 matches w Fed and you'd say "but Fed was #1 for three more weeks and won those WTFs". Give this, it isn't worth talking to you about this issue any further.
     
  27. Messarger

    Messarger Hall of Fame

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    Just another day in the forum. Sometimes while reading these post I wonder if Clarky is a hot chick in real life.
     
  28. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    My point is genius, that Fed didn't have peak Rafa and Novak in his path to winning majors. So of course he has more than they do. Only Nadal on clay was able to stop him from 04-07 apart from Safin playing his very best once.

    Rafa and Novak have each other and it's nearly at every major as well. Murray is also there now along with Del Potro who looks ready to emerge this year as a real slam contender.

    So the point is it's always going to be harder for Novak and Rafa to knock up majors. Look who Novak has lost to in major finals, peak Fed at USO, prime Rafa at RG and peak Murray at WIM and USO. If peak Novak replaced peak Fed from 04-07, I doubt he'd win as many as Roger, but he'd certainly have more than 6 total majors by now imo. And I have no doubt Rafa would have more than 13 if he had replaced peak Fed from 04-07.
     
  29. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah, because it's impossible to translate greatness into numbers.

    I mean on paper Rafa will be statistical goat in your scenario. I'm consistent in saying majors and weeks nr.1 is what matters most.

    I will have no problems to go with the consensus.

    But what if they end up close? Rafa with 18 majors and Fed with 17 and 302 weeks? That is too close to tell even based on pure math.

    We would have to use other stuff as a tie-breaker.

    But the problem is, you can't translate stuff into numbers.
    Is h2h worth more than 23 semis? Is 6 WTF titles worth 1-2 majors?

    I mean you give me the best system. I mean how much is 1 week being nr.1 worth? How do you measure the value of competition? And you can win a final with 6-0 dominating scores or barley win it. You can win majors with different types of domination. Fed had to win his masters when they were best out of five finals.

    Don't you see that there are tons of stuff that you can't assign a number to it? So even based on pure math it's impossible to have a clear goat.

    The only mathematical way to compare them would be to maybe add all their ranking points throughout their careers.

    And how can we compare this across eras?
     
  30. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    And you know this how?

    This is nothing more than fanatical religious speculation.

    I mean you don't even need any numbers. Why do you waste time arguing? You can just say Rafa has equivalent of 20 majors or 30 or whatever and say he is the goat.

    I mean you decided Rafa is the goat in any case. Why do you torture yourself with numbers?

    Just repeat your mantra that Rafa is the goat.
     
  31. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    People talk as they have time machine, crystal ball or something. One can just argue Nole would have won less during Fed's era when the conditions was less favorable to him. Nole had problems with Roddick, and the AO was still Rebound Ace. Federer, Safin, Hewitt Gonzo wouldn't allow him to win 4 AO. And Nole matchup better against Nadal than Federer on grass, hard court and indoor.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2014
  32. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah, this is stupid.

    2003-2007 we have only 20 majors total available.

    And yet, Rafa and Nole will win 25 combined and Fed, Hewitt, Roddick 0:).

    Great logic, lol. This is twisted.
     
  33. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Perhaps you two should get a room...
     
  34. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Jealous? You can come too.
     
  35. Djokovic2011

    Djokovic2011 G.O.A.T.

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    Lol I'm getting all sorts of visions in my head now that I probably shouldn't be but you know what they say, the more the merrier! :)
     
  36. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Hey you can come too. Djokovic fans can come too.

    The more majors the merrier.
     
  37. Djokovic2011

    Djokovic2011 G.O.A.T.

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    "The more majors the merrier"-I'm loving the alliteration mate lol. Count me in! :)
     
  38. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Laver fans should come to. He is the general of majors.
     
  39. Blocker

    Blocker Semi-Pro

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    Oh please, the only one butthurt here is you. I will reiterate, I am not arguing who the GOAT is because IMO you cannot declare one man the GOAT. Let's face it, current opinion is biased towards current generations. Alot of people who saw Laver at his peak have either passed away and thus are not around to push Laver's barrow or are too old to even figure out how to use a computer let alone log onto to here to argue the point. Plus, there is alot less footage of Laver than there is of Federer, again, biased towards the current generation. You are shallow man, you have a shallow view of tennis without any regard for the past. You simply see 17 and what Federer was able to do to lesser players than him and bang, you think Federer is the GOAT. I'm telling you, it runs much deeper than that, it's not that simple and I'm not going to get into it because it's been done to death on here. Even if Nadal does get to 18, I will still not argue who the GOAT is, for reasons I've already stated...again, it's not that simple.

    And just for the record, Nadal has pretty much beaten Federer throughout each stage of Federer's career and pretty much on every surface.
    And please spare me about Sampras fans. If Sampras' career was aligned with Federer's, he would have given as good as he got. The past 6 years have proven that Federer is human afterall...you don't think a peak Sampras would have got in on the action even against a peak Federer? He won 14 slams and finished 6 times World Champion (no. 1) in an era of polarised conditions. Let me tell you, he's no mug. Sheesh, he didn't fear anyone and he is probably the most aggressive player tennis has ever seen. All Sampras would need to do is get under Federer's skin and in his head with a couple of wins and wholla, I suspect it would be the whole Nadal ordeal for Federer all over again. What, you think Federer is superman without any weaknesses?

    Which leads me to the main reason I'm replying to your rubbish...to reiterate the main point of my post that you quoted...there is more to determining a truly great player than just tennis strokes...it is a whole myriad of things, and that includes strengths and weaknesses. If you can't see that then you're a dill.
     
  40. sam_p

    sam_p Professional

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    This is prime stuff. Agree with every word.
     
  41. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    He's not the only member of the Fringe to suffer pain in the rear.

    Well said. Even if you do not personally agree with the GOAT distinction, you hit at the heart of their matter.

    True; contrary to the theatrics of his fans, Federer's problems with Nadal were not isolated to clay.
     
  42. Messarger

    Messarger Hall of Fame

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    The guy that said even if Nadal surpassed Fed's slam count, Fed will still be the goat. Just wow. I am not going to quote the post, but just....wow. I am speechless.
     
  43. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    That's a refreshing post. We need more guys like you. You seem to be objective and smart and can think for yourself.

    But to be fair, the board has rules that we can only talk about current players. So, of course there will be only talk about Fed and Rafa as goat. I mean this is a bit unfair, to eliminate others by default. I mean goat discussions shouldn't even be part of this board. This is board for current players only. So, it's a bit silly that goat discussions are even allowed here.
     
  44. monfed

    monfed Guest

    Wow I don't think you even read my post properly. BTW you really like to type don't you? I don't. But yea so much codswallop for merely stating a simple fact that Ralph was beating Fed at an early age of 17 but was losing to players who Fed was thrashing left n right. This is a textbook example of a matchup issue which the Fed-hater brigade pretend like it doesn't even exist. Unfortunately the world is not blind :lol: and they can see why Nadal beats Fed even though he's inferior and less accomplished than Fed.

    And where the **** did I even hint/mention Fed being GOAT coz of his slam count? Infact I never use that in my argument to crown Fed as the GOAT. I've said multiple times that his achievements COUPLED with his COMPLETE GAME makes him the GOAT. "17>*" arguments are often used by Fed fans to shut down Fed hating trolls like you without writing a 1 page thesis.

    And what's with your delusion of Pete beating Fed? Pre-pubescent Fed beat defending champ Sampras at Wim 01. Fed would beat Pete everywhere consistently except fast grass and even that is iffy for Pete. Today's surfaces he would get murdered by prime Fed, not the current version of Fed which you like to call prime. :lol:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2014

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