I'm not greatest player - Roger Federer

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by tennissportsrog, Sep 2, 2012.

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  1. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    Federer won four slams before Rafa won his first. They have generally dealt with the same field for most of their careers.

    Let me save you some trouble:

    mistik:

    Rafa was young back then.

    me:

    Federer is old now.

    Insert some opinions and shake them all about and you come to the current standings with regards to slams, weeks at number one, general domination etc..

    The more and more time that passes, the less people are going to care about opinions and the more they will care about the facts. If Nadal fails to get close to Federer, nobody will think he is the goat. You'll get over it in time.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2012
    #51
  2. mistik

    mistik Hall of Fame

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    I dont think Rafa is goat.İt is just Fed not either just like Margret Court in women tennis(still the holder of most slams),just like Emerson before Sampras.To win more majors doesnt make you goat.
     
    #52
  3. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    No one will ever agree on what makes a player the goat. Some people will want to talk about goats and they will use certain statistics to try and prove it, but then deny the same statistics for another player because of sour grapes.

    There aren't going to be "weak fields" any longer unless there are massive boycotts. Too many people are playing tennis competitively. During certain periods there will be more or less parity that is basically going to be determined by whether or not any extremely gifted players are present.

    Everyone should just try and appreciate any greats that come along, just like Federer is trying to do here. :)
     
    #53
  4. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    #54
  5. mistik

    mistik Hall of Fame

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    İf someone done 2 calendar slams like Laver,It would deserve the goat status.
     
    #55
  6. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    Are you sure? What if you didn't think highly of the players they beat?
     
    #56
  7. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    3 of the 4 surfaces being the same good one xD
     
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  8. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    1962 was amateurs only.
     
    #58
  9. mistik

    mistik Hall of Fame

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    You have to take that in to consideration as well.Even with the weakes field ever between 03 and 06 Fed didnt.So it is still very difficult achievement to do.
     
    #59
  10. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    Good to know that no one will ever agree then. :)
     
    #60
  11. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    ill repeat it 3 of the 4 surfaces were the same!
     
    #61
  12. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    dumbo, clueless kiki at it again ......

    He said he's confident enough to take on anyone from any era with a wooden racket. He never mentioned any era in particular ......

    But then typical of you >> near zero idea of tennis .....
     
    #62
  13. mistik

    mistik Hall of Fame

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    Yeah because tennis isnt like athletics or something.Hussein Bolt has the world record in 100m and 200m now.Lets assume some in the future will win more Gold medals than him in Olympics,if that person cant beat Bolts time in 100m and 200m.He wont be considered better than him.İn tennis everything is subjective.I can say Sampras is the best ever fast court player.You can say Borg was better than Rafa on clay.
     
    #63
  14. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    Hussein?? Bolt LMAO its Usain!
     
    #64
  15. mistik

    mistik Hall of Fame

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    Oh yeah ı realised now.:) I am also checking the real clear politics.:)
    You can understand where Hussein comes from ?
     
    #65
  16. timnz

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    Umm - checking facts always helps

    But he's beaten Nadal 10 times!
     
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  17. timnz

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    Yes having 3 out of 4 on the same surface you could argue that that made it tougher than today. It meant that a large majority of players were all excellent on grass.
     
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  18. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    Or you could just take a players grass results from today and multiply those results by three instead of playing on other surfaces. :lol:
     
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  19. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    So who is?

    Disagree with your supposition... because Federer has won Masters events on Clay and Roland Garros and beaten the greatest player ever on clay twice. Who has a better record on clay against Nadal than Federer? (Don't count losses because we shouldn't advantage those who have a better percentage than Federer simply because they haven't played enough clay matches against Nadal to accrue more clay losses). Who has won more than twice against Nadal and also claimed the French Open and Masters events on clay? But lets say you are right. If Federer isn't... then who is?

    Now of course the person you mention, to be considered the GOAT, would have to be having a dominant record (say, at least winning a top event at least 4 times) in most of the top 5 events (Slams + WTF).

    So who could that be...

    Couldn't be Nadal - who has only dominated Roland Garros

    Couldn't be Agassi - who only dominated the Australian Open

    Perhaps Sampras - who has a dominant record at Wimbledon, the US Open and the WTF

    Maybe Laver - yes, perhaps.....

    hmmmm.... but who???? you have said Federer isn't (who has been dominant in 4 out of 5 of the top events - but he is excluded).

    So please let us know.

    Sorry for the sarcasim. But I have seen this way of judging the 'GOAT' many times. Where players look at what a player hasn't done more than what a player has achieved. People look at Nadal's career slam but don't look at the fact he has only won 1 Australian Open and 1 US open and only 2 Wimbledons and zero WTF's. Surely a player who has won 4 Australian Opens and 5 US Opens and 7 Wimbledons and 6 WTF's should rate over that player?
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2012
    #69
  20. vamospunch

    vamospunch Banned

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    Everyone knows you can't compare eras. You can only compare one player to another in the present. Maybe federer's fans will learn this one day, but unlikely. Not everyone understands tennis.
     
    #70
  21. Xizel

    Xizel Professional

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    Nope. Fed still GOAT. All around package. Has it all.
     
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  22. 15_ounce

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    No, he is not fat.
     
    #72
  23. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Nice rationalizing...

    There may not be 'weak' fields in a globally competitive sport with the potential to earn millions of dollars, but there are ceretainly weaker fields!

    Federer's era has been characterized by incredibly shallow depth (2004-present) and relatively weak competition (2004-2007). Of course this is not his fault, but the case none the less. I still put him as relative GOAT (at least open era GOAT) after this year -- making it to #1 while having to compete against two open era greats.
     
    #73
  24. vamospunch

    vamospunch Banned

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    He has crap against the best of his era - RNadal. 2-8 at slams, including 0-2 on hardcourt.
     
    #74
  25. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    Anyone who knows me here, knows I am a Federer fan. But for me he is not GOAT. That is my opinion.

    Yes, in my opinion he is the greatest of HIS time. But when comparing eras is just not that simple, so many variables from nutrition, to court variances, to how draws are set up now (32 seeds instead of 16), different equipment, more emphasis than ever before on accumilating slams etc.

    He is the most accomplished player for me results wise, but GOAT he is not. I am quite happy with that, and watch and cheer him because I like watching him play whether he is considered GOAT or not.
     
    #75
  26. NadalDramaQueen

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    The problem is that there is no way to show what you say is true. If you can, please be my guest. Success in tennis is relative. That goes for the champions and the losers.

    People get caught up in their biases and see domination as the result of a weak era when the simple statistics show that this is likely false. All you can say is hey, these players didn't win anything and these other players did, which only shows more or less parity, nothing more.
     
    #76
  27. vamospunch

    vamospunch Banned

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    The problem is that statistics don't represent greatness.
     
    #77
  28. NadalDramaQueen

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    Statistics and facts help people to overcome their biases. If you can't show that a statement is true, it is worthless. This has been moving humans forward for centuries, while relying on opinions that have no meaning have been holding us back.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2012
    #78
  29. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    You do realize this is a message board, don't you :confused:

    Hardly anthing stated is pure fact.

    And if you think statisitics is what has moved human kind foward; I feel sorry for you.

    You're missing out on the most important things in life if you actually believe that...
     
    #79
  30. NadalDramaQueen

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    Of course I realize that. I just wish people wouldn't take what they say so seriously. I feel sorry for people who don't realize just how bad their arguments are.

    Facts and logic have moved human kind forward. This sometimes involves detailed analysis of millions of events or objects (i.e. statistical analysis) in order to determine the nature of things.
     
    #80
  31. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    Well look how many posts you have managed to rack up.

    Entire board has been waiting on a ban that just wont come.
     
    #81
  32. NadalDramaQueen

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    I believe he has been banned a couple of times. It just doesn't stick for whatever reason.
     
    #82
  33. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    Facts like the sun revolves around the earth, or if you travel far enough you will eventual fall off...

    Truth is, it often takes an opinion (often times seen as outrageous or even blasphemous) to lead to more of a factual understanding. Statistics many times is little more than mathematical manipulation used to bolster a particular point of view...

    I do agree regarding logic...
     
    #83
  34. joeri888

    joeri888 G.O.A.T.

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    Just read the quotes from Roger and Rafa on the first page, and tell me which is the arrogant Swiss brat who things too high of himself compared to previous legends. I certainly wouldn't know.
     
    #84
  35. NadalDramaQueen

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    People use current facts and theories (scientific theories) to make a hypothesis which they then go on to try and prove. You don't build further upon statements that are not proven, and if you do, you build upon it in a way that is internally consistent with your starting assumptions, so that if you can show your starting point to be true, the rest follows along.

    People rely on intuition to make leaps forward, but they don't stick to their intuition if it is shown to be untrue or can never be proven. That is what people who try and make perpetual motion devices (the kind that give out more energy than there is in the system indefinitely) do, not scientists or anyone who is reasonable.

    As for statistics, it is more useful and scientific than you give it credit for. Don't discredit statistics and "mathematical manipulation" just because you have never put it to use in a way that can be helpful and make correct predictions.
     
    #85
  36. 6-1 6-3 6-0

    6-1 6-3 6-0 Banned

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    And has fallen down hard where it counts. 2-8 in slams and 0-2 in hard-court slams.
     
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  37. vamospunch

    vamospunch Banned

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    Statistics are for people who don't understand tennis. An astute tennis observer would know greatness when they see it, and be able to measure greatness through observation. Statistics are only useful when comparing players of the same time period. Federer's statistics vs Roddick/Hewitt/Nalbandian/Safin are useless in an ALL-TIME debate, because those 4 guys aren't on the level of Connors/Lendl/Wilander/McEnroe/Borg/Becker/Edberg etc.

    Federer would be struggling to win more than a couple of slams in the 1980s. Even in the 1990s, it would be a struggle, considering Sampras is clearly the better player at Wimbledon and the US Open, and would take most of Federer's slam titles away. Agassi, even at age 34 was able to take Federer to 5 sets at the US Open. And at age 35, Agassi played THREE five-setters at the US Open before playing Federer in the final, and with minimal energy (no day break between semi-final and final) Agassi won a set 6-2. I'd take 1995 and 1999 Agassi over Federer. I've seen Agassi and Sampras in the prime, and I've seen all the greats of the 1980s. No stat can convince me that Federer would dominate those guys.
     
    #87
  38. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Ah yes so the fact that Borg & Federer dominate the stats on ATPWorldTour.com means nothing. You know better.
     
    #88
  39. cluckcluck

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    How could you not like this guy? 100% class.
     
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  40. vamospunch

    vamospunch Banned

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    RNadal dominates the stats too, the longest streak ever on a single surface, the winner of an event 8 straight years, and the 7-time winner of 3 different events, the all-time leader in masters shields, the sole leader at Roland Garros (while the other 3 slams have multiple leaders), all at age 26. The stats mean nothing when measuring all-time greatness. Different opponents in each era, hence impossible to base anything on stats when ranking players all-time.
     
    #90
  41. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Nadal is clay GOAT, agreed. Next?
     
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  42. vamospunch

    vamospunch Banned

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    I don't believe in GOATs. All we know is that RNadal has won the most Roland Garros titles. GOAT? An immature internet invention, and meaningless.
     
    #92
  43. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    We live in the internet era for better or worse. Live with it!
     
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  44. NadalDramaQueen

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    Hence the need for statistics so that people can overcome their obvious biases. :lol:

    I know for a fact that Nadal is inferior to Borg on clay. I can tell by watching them play. If he played when Borg played, or even in the 90s when the clay courters were better and Sampras would beat him everywhere else, he would be lucky to win one slam.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2012
    #94
  45. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    But i was responding to the poster who said that federer can't beat nadal. But that obviously isn't true because, as I said, federer has beaten nadal 10 times.
     
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  46. 6-1 6-3 6-0

    6-1 6-3 6-0 Banned

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    Yes, and as I said, he's only beaten Nadal twice, where it counts. (And lost eight times.)
     
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  47. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    the fact that Federer fans use their hatred Laver to enhance their idol is just sooo hilarious...
     
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  48. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    And he is the goat from general consensus, which Nadal is far from.
    "Unlucky, unlucky, oh yes," uncle Toni said. "If there wasn't Federer, perhaps Rafael would have been No. 1 for four years. But with Federer, that was impossible."
     
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  49. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Personally I dont know of any Federer fan who hates Laver.
     
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  50. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    And bagelled him at the WTF.
     
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