In OZ, Rafa tried more hitting through Nole. It worked better than patty-caking him.

Discussion in 'Pro Match Results and Discussion' started by DeShaun, Feb 7, 2012.

  1. DeShaun

    DeShaun Banned

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    But what will happen at the French w/this tactic, where rally tolerance becomes a greater factor and nobody's likely going to be hitting through anybody, save for a fluke like Delpo or Soderling getting hot?
     
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  2. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Who ever moves best with best endurance wins, all else being equal.
     
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  3. Murrayfan31

    Murrayfan31 Hall of Fame

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    Yep a lot harder to hit through Djoker on clay. Djokovic is king of all surfaces now but maybe is most vulnerable on a fast court.
     
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  4. mcenroefan

    mcenroefan Hall of Fame

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    I think the FO will play faster than the AO.
     
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  5. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Nadal has no chance against Novak on clay for the very reason that Nadal is the one that gets moved around on clay, and has no way to hit through Novak on the clay. People who keep believing that somehow just because Nadal is great on clay that he will magically figure out how to beat Novak on clay. Clay is the surface that exposes your weaknesses as a tennis player most; Nadal's weakness is his one dimensional style of play. Once he got figured out by Novak, he's pretty much done for on a surface where you have to straight up outplay your opponent rather than try to go for broke.
     
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  6. Tammo

    Tammo Banned

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    Nadal always is the favorite against whoever is on the opposite side of the court in a clay match. And Nadal isn't one dimensional when playing a clay. He has the best claycourt records of all time.
     
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  7. Murrayfan31

    Murrayfan31 Hall of Fame

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    Djokovic won 4 straight sets against Nadal on clay. Nadal actually got closer to beating Djokovic on hardcourts last year.
     
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  8. Fed Kennedy

    Fed Kennedy Hall of Fame

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    He will lose? (again)
     
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  9. DeShaun

    DeShaun Banned

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    Nadal is unlikely to be referring to himself as the favorite, especially against Djokovic on any surface.
     
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  10. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Novak utterly bludgeoned Nadal to death on clay in straight sets. The Nadal fans who would tell you that he "declined" are all absolute idiots. Novak made Nadal look bad because clay is the one surface where you can't run and gun your way out of situations with a serve or a big forehand like Nadal did countless of times at the AO.


    Clay is a surface where you have to craft points, move your opponent around, utilize the WHOLE court, and just simply play better tennis all around.


    Nadal is a one dimensional player, especially on clay. All he can do is play the most phenomenal defensive baseline game of all time. It is still ONE DIMENSIONAL. Djokovic just exposes this, and finds it even easier to do so on clay because Nadal has no opportunities to hit through Djokovic anymore. The last two matches on clay are a testament to this. Nadal had no answer and had no way to hit through Novak.
     
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  11. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Unless it's as sunny and hot at the French Open as it was in 1996, that isn't going to happen. I'm baffled by those saying Plexicushion is slow, when Rebound Ace was slower.
     
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  12. vllaznia

    vllaznia Semi-Pro

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    Are you serious? Plexicushion is much slower than Rebound Ace.
     
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  13. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    No, it isn't. Ask Lleyton Hewitt, Rebound Ace is slow and high bouncing. It's the tennis equipment that has changed the game more than the surface. Imaging Nadal playing with a 1990s racquet. He ain't going to get anywhere near the same kind of topspin or depth as he does today, so volleyers could take advantage back then.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2012
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  14. CDestroyer

    CDestroyer Professional

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    Great post. I agree with everything you said.
     
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  15. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    And yet the ones that think that a player is in his prime in his 7TH season(2011) dominating that surface(2005-2010) think themselves geniuses.

    Nadal loses sets on clay to nr.130 in the world, gets taken to five by Isner in RG, is nearly breadsticked by a guy who made 2 clay finals by 25, has trouble dispatching a 30 year old favorable matchup(even with Nadal being prime/peak and Fed being post prime in this scenario) in the final.

    Yup, sounds like prime Nadal on clay. Peak, now that I think about it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2012
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  16. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

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    Or maybe the competition is improving on clay? It's not always about the scoreline. What matters is Nadal still fairly comfortably makes finals. He had tough matches on clay even in 2007-2008 against Starachi, Hewitt, Davydenko, etc. Always had very tough matches against Federer and Djokovic throughout the years.
    Nadal is in his physical prime right now. There are ZERO excuses. His clay game is the same as it's always been. Djokovic and Federer were his 2 biggest rivals on clay for years. They always were his toughest foes. Always able to take sets off him on clay.
     
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  17. FlamEnemY

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    All I know is that if Nadal's only "adjustment" is hitting loopy backhand junk balls to Nole then he's screwed.
     
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  18. TennisFan3

    TennisFan3 Legend

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    While I agree with your overall point, I think you're pushing it a little bit. Djokovic would definitely be the favorite against Nadal on clay. Maybe even more than he is on hardcourts, but it certainly won't be a massacre. I'm sure Nadal won't be moonballing his backhands next time he faces Djokovic on clay. Of course, that probably won't be enough to win, but I would be surprised if he's straight setted twice again..

    I really don't believe Nadal played his best tennis on the clay season in 2011. And even if you're biased, this was easy to see in his matches against other players not named Djokovic. And this was before he even faced Djokovic in Madrid.

    The other part of the story is that Djokovic played amazing IMO on clay especially against Nadal. His Rome 2011 Final was possibly the best tennis I saw from him in 2011. Nadal actually didn't play that bad in the Rome final, but still got straight setted. Djokovic (perhaps mindful of the fatigue from the SF against Murray) was on FIRE and just bludgeoned everything Rafa threw at him.

    Can Djokovic produce the same level in 2012? I don't think he's played that well since. Sure, if he does, then Nadal's screwed pretty much. But yeah, if Rafa ups his game a little bit he may give Djokovic a run for his money, even if it likely won't be enough to beat him.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2012
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  19. Murrayfan31

    Murrayfan31 Hall of Fame

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    Nadal better hope for a hot and dry day where the ball is flying. Thus allowing quicker conditions.
     
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  20. TennisFan3

    TennisFan3 Legend

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    That is ALWAYS true for Nadal. Contrary to what people think, Nadal ALWAYS prefers hot, dry conditions when his spin explodes of the court and jumps up high. That is very easy to see. In the F.O 2010 final for example, Nadal's forehand starting doing more damage in the 2nd half of the match when the sun started beating down and the conditions become hotter. For the 1st half, he was just playing defense..
     
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  21. Murrayfan31

    Murrayfan31 Hall of Fame

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    Against Federer is different. The high ball doesn't bother Djokovic. But the quicker conditions might allow Nadal to hit through Djokovic considering how comfortable Nadal is on clay.
     
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  22. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    Does anyone see the irony in this! LOL
     
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  23. Sentinel

    Sentinel Talk Tennis Guru

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    hey OP, what's patty-caking, i googled but i get these 2 answers, the 3rd i cannot print here.

    1. An ultimate test of pure determination and skill, where one brave athletic legend along with another brave athletic legend clap their hands together with a thunderous noise that echoes in the heavens. Patty Cake was made purely to seek out the true god. When the game begins, all hell breaks loose, and the two fearless competitors slam the palm of their hands together, creating a ear pounding sonic boom that will ultimately destroy the Universe and all who inhabit it!

    2. A simple game where two children clap there hands together and at the same time say Patty Cake.
    "OH MY GOD!!! TWO PEOPLE ARE BATTLING EACH OTHER IN AN EPIC WAR OF PATTY CAKE! ALERT THE MEDIA!!!"
     
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  24. DeShaun

    DeShaun Banned

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    My first thought was that Rafa probably wants the outcome-factor of whose foot speed and court coverage is better to be mitigated as much as possible since he's no longer the speediest little defensive demon on the court (on balance throughout an entire match) whenever he is playing Novak who is evidently reading Rafa's game very well nowadays, and so I think that Rafa would not mind at all if the speed of play were to be reduced significantly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2012
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  25. Magnus

    Magnus Legend

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    He lost to Federer on clay slam and was one point away from losing to him again on a mid-paced HC. Best player in the world? Yes. But hardly a king.
     
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  26. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    This is a valid argument. Keeping in mind though that the other most mentioned CC GOAT contender Borg showed little to no signs of slowing down on clay after 7 years of dominating it. He retired for a variety of reasons but his level of clay wasn't one of them.

    This however isn't given that you claimed Fed was at his peak (so not even merely prime) in 2008-2009 as far as HC(slams) go yet he was on the brink of losing in 3d/4th round in 2008 AO, USO and 2009 AO, also keeping in mind that Janko/Andreev were closer to beating Fed by some margin than Isner was at any point to beating Nadal.
     
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  27. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    I'm pretty sure I said Fed was still prime in slams until mid 2010(so including 2008,2009), not peak. Federer's peak years ended in 2007.
     
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  28. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    As far as I remember you claimed Fed didn't decline as far as slams(including HC slams) go in 2008-2009.

    Declining from peak level of play is still a decline.

    Just as it apparently wasn't outrageous to claim Fed hasn't declined on HC in 2008 and 2009 (heck there are people here who claim Fed still hasn't declined or even that he's playing better than ever) it isn't outrageous to claim Nadal hasn't decline on clay in 2011 either, afterall he did win MC+RG and reached the final in every clay tourney he entered.
     
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  29. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    Well sure, he declined from peak to prime IMO. After mid 2010, he was out of his prime as well, as proven by his slam results(I very much doubt Federer loses in any slam in prime/peak form after being two sets up).
     
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  30. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Novak's level on clay in 2011 wasn't as high as you make it to be, he struggled greatly against Bellucci and Ferrer in Madrid and Murray in Rome and lost to old "weak era benefactor" Fed at FO.

    I mean he played great in 2011 Rome and Madrid finals obviously but throghout those whole tourneys his level wasn't that special.
     
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  31. tusharlovesrafa

    tusharlovesrafa Hall of Fame

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    Wow..I didnt expect this fom a guy with who has so much knwledge about tennis..i hve seen videos of both rebound ace and plexicusion and plexicusion is hell lot slower then rebound ace..Anything slower then plexicusion surface is be clay..
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2012
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  32. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    I thought you said in another thread that tennis, like chess (duh?) was mostly about skill? :roll:

    So we're agreed, then? It's all about stamina, now.
     
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  33. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Actually, I remember him complaining a lot when the surface was changed from Rebound Ace to Plexicushion, as he said he wanted a faster surface and Plexicushion was much slower, so I wonder when he could have said the opposite. :confused:
     
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  34. PSNELKE

    PSNELKE Legend

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    i guess this explains it tushi.
     
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