In what manner are female strokes usually different than male ones?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by dangalak, Sep 30, 2012.

  1. dangalak

    dangalak Banned

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    I mean, i know the end result. (more spin in the ATP) However, what leads to it? Is it just superior power or is it also because of different technique (males pronating on the forehand more during the takeback, while girls mostly just supinate; men finishing more across the body as opposed to over the shoulder; men using more straight arm FHs?)
     
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  2. MarinaHighTennis

    MarinaHighTennis Professional

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    techniques for sure. Girls seem to hit with their shoulder
     
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  3. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Main differences you'll see are on forehand and serve in my opinion...

    Forehand prep...
    [​IMG]

    Forehand drive position...
    [​IMG]

    cheers
     
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  4. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Most ATP males just have faster swingspeeds, and need to adjust to keep the ball IN play.
    Most WTA females have slower swing speeds, but need more ball speed to run the opponent, and hit flatter strokes.
    Serena is stronger than most males, but hits like a girl.
    If WTA women hit like guys, it would be a topspin push game.
    If ATP men hit like the women, the ball would indeed go fast (DelPo) but they would miss a lot.
     
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  5. dangalak

    dangalak Banned

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    :lol: Calm down bro.

    How do you explain that Del Potro is so consistent then? Is it his height?

    I was also asking for the specifics. As in, "what do women/men do different to get the desired results? (flatter or spinnier shots)"

    For example, things such as followthrough, how much pronation during a forehand takeback, bent or straight elbow, platform or pinpoint stance during serve etc...

    I am ignorant of the differences of these nuances between them.
     
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  6. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Duh.
    Difference is most male pros can swing faster than most female pros, so need to control the ball to keep it IN.
    Notice there is a difference between boys and girls.
     
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  7. The Meat

    The Meat Hall of Fame

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    Should we call her Sereno? :)
     
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  8. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    People are built differently, so have to compensate for their weaknesses or strengths. Being purely strong is an advantage at times, and a disadvantage at other times.
    But Serena is stronger than most male pro tennis players. Stronger also is susceptible to things like cramps, muscle fatigue, and more energy used to play long points, which is why she likes to HIT the ball into corners to shorten points, not sustain endless rallies.
     
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  9. Thepowerofchoice

    Thepowerofchoice Semi-Pro

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    Sam Stosur hits/serves like a man :)
     
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  10. aimr75

    aimr75 Hall of Fame

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    Henins forehand was more ATP than WTA too
     
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  11. MikeyBigShot

    MikeyBigShot Rookie

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    What would stop a guy from developing ground strokes like Sharapova or Serena? I know that most guys here probably try to coordinate their undies with whatever ATP players have under their shorts, but seriously what aspect og Serena/Sharapova's strokes aren't applicable to amateur men?

    I doubt most amateur men need a WW FH to control their self-perceived massive FH.
     
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  12. KineticChain

    KineticChain Professional

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    That's just silly.
     
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  13. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    ^^^ Or poly strings for that matter
     
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  14. UCSF2012

    UCSF2012 Hall of Fame

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    Serena's more bulky but not stronger. She looks like she can powerlift a house, but she still uses the Blade Lite.
     
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  15. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    KineticC, you might be stronger than Serena, but at 5'11" and 150 lbs., she is much stronger than me. She's closer to 5'9" and 170 lbs. now that she is in shape, and 3 years ago, closer to 185lbs or even 190.
    Look at the size of her shoulders and arms. She can mug GilesSimon with one arm!
    But guys still have the edge in fast twitch muscles, I'll admit.
     
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  16. MikeyBigShot

    MikeyBigShot Rookie

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    This really is stupid! She's in great shape and is naturally muscular, but that doesn't mean she is automatically stronger than men who weigh less or who are even shorter.
     
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  17. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Sometimes, people learn from experience.
    Look at Serena's body. What does looking tell you about her strength? Her shoulders are twice the size of mine, her biceps another 1/2 bigger, and her legs easily double the size, pure muscle.
    Now picture me. 5'11". Naturally about 140, but now that I'm 63, a little spare tire around the belly and 150. Who do you think is stronger?
     
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  18. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    C'mon man you know better than this. Pros lead up their frames. Her swingweight is much higher.
     
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  19. dangalak

    dangalak Banned

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    :lol:

    I was talking about professional male players, not rec players.

    Didn't know that you were the average male pro. ;)

    Can somebody explain to me how a guy like Del Potro doesn't miss every second ball long? He doesn't have an extreme grip, he finishes above his shoulder and has straight arm on contact. Isn't the purpose of spin to make sure that your shots don't go long? It's not like a guy of his power needs to be flat to be effective.
     
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  20. UCSF2012

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    What lead? I ain't see no lead. Show me where the lead is on her racket. This particular pro doesn't use no lead.
     
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  21. UCSF2012

    UCSF2012 Hall of Fame

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    Del Potro hits flat. Smooth, consistent swings, without high RHS. He knows how hard he can hit and still keep the ball in the court.
     
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  22. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    The men employ a lot more supination/pronation in their stroke production on both sides which adds racquet speed at contact. The women tend to lay the racquet back before the end of their backswings and pull the racquet through contact without much supination/pronation. I'm not sure why. It's not as if modern frames were too heavy for them. They just don't do it.
     
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  23. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    True that! Great stroke production on both sides.
     
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  24. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Common misconception. Del Potro hits a TON of topspin on his forehand.
     
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  25. dangalak

    dangalak Banned

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    How though? His FH looks pretty classic to me.
     
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  26. UCSF2012

    UCSF2012 Hall of Fame

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    I'm watching his videos. His forehands barely jump off the ground, and his opponents are standing up because of it. Doesn't look like a ton of topspin to me.
     
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  27. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY6o5m3jRfs

    I dunno man, he actually has a pretty large loop in his forehand which alone generates more topspin then I can dream of. Plus he's like 6'6, so I'm not sure he needs that much simply from his normal wheelhouse to get it in.

    -Fuji
     
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  28. UCSF2012

    UCSF2012 Hall of Fame

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    During contact and immediately after contact, the racket goes way forward, not up. That's a flat forehand.
     
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  29. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    They don't have type III atp snap back fh. They don't hit overheads no matter what. They don't have big serves or hit aces. They don't come into the net at all. No one has a one hander. Cowardly rigidity is the norm.
     
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  30. dangalak

    dangalak Banned

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    Serena, Venus, Stosur and Jankovic hit some nice ones. :)
     
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  31. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    They don't have what now!?!?!?! :)
     
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  32. Dave M

    Dave M Hall of Fame

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    ^^ I'm gald you asked Ash, hate to be only one reading this and wondering what that is, I must need one.
     
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  33. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    ^^^Yes i'm looking forward to finding out what one of those is!!!

    Back on topic - as i've illustrated the biggest difference in forehand is prep phase through to loading phase - many female players allow the racquet to cross behind the body as shown in the Sharapova example, whilst the male players tend to keep the racquet, arm and had on the ball side of the body.

    On serve, you tend to see a lot more sagittal torso movement from the women, whilst the men tend to maintain the line of the spine through the hips better - likely because the women tend to open their hips more into and through impact.

    Cheers
     
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  34. TCF

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    ================================================
     
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  35. Tcbtennis

    Tcbtennis Professional

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    I have a boy and a girl who both started playing at the same time with the same coach. Though they started at the same time and were taught the same technique, their paths diverged. My son hits with heavy topspin with a compact backswing and my daughter hits flatter with a much larger backswing. In fact we are working to shorten her backswing because it way too big.

    I think that you are right in that my daughter's forehand was attackable until she developed a flatter and deeper ball.
     
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  36. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I don't know why you would think that. I'm guessing you haven't seen what genuine old school, wood racquet, strokes look like. Del Potro's forehand is far from old school. He hits way out front with a huge upward trajectory and big upper body rotation. None of that is old school.

    In any event, you can confirm how much spin he hits just by looking at how hard he hits and the flight of his ball. He couldn't keep the ball in the court without a huge spin rate.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2012
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  37. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I've seen him live. His ball has a ton of spin on it and it dips very hard at the end. He doesn't hit with as much arc, and therefore, doesn't get as much visible kick, as some because he hits so hard. But, his spin rate is still very heavy. But, it's not easy to judge that from video or TV. Live is the only way to really see what's going on.

    I've read a lot of comments on this board describing Soderling's and Del Potro's fh's as flat. No one on the tour hits anywhere near flat. They all hit a TON of topspin. Soderling and Del Potro even more than most. They have to in order to hit that hard and keep the ball in play.
     
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  38. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    Respectfully I don't agree - at all.

    I'm just a rec tennis player, but I can't keep the ball in and hit as big as I do now (with modern strokes) without using a WW fh. I used to hit fairly flat, like the women, but the ball had to be around waist high on my side and within a couple of inches of the net tape to stay in. When I got it in it was great, but I missed a lot when I really went for it. It's a pretty fine margin.

    And I think almost any guy can hit a fh harder than a pro woman if they just lay into it full blast with some modicum of technique. Size and testosterone are the reason. Like LeeD said, boys and girls are different. That doesn't make you better than pro woman because you need to keep it in, hit it to locations, hit on the run, etc.

    Now with modern strokes I can swing close to full speed at most balls and vary the amount of ts I put on the ball to keep it in. Modern strokes really make a difference, and they're really better.
     
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  39. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    the main reason is that women hit flatter because they don't have as much RHS. thus they need to hit more through the ball because if they hit with the same spin as men their balls would be "sitting up".

    there were some women who hit spinny (sanchez, sabatini, schiavone) but most of them don't hit hard. there were very few women who were strong enough to hit hard and spinny (henin, stosur, mauresmo).

    men on the other hand are so strong that they have to hit spinny to keep the ball in.
     
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  40. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I have to disagree on a few points. WTA players do hit modern forehands with WW finishes. They just don't employ nearly as much supination/protation as the ATP men do. And, I can assure you, very few rec level men can hit as hard as WTA players can. Don't kid yourself. They may not have the racquet speed the pro men have, but, they can still tear the cover off of the ball compared to rec players.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2012
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  41. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    DP has the natural advantage of height, which gives him a different trajectory on his shots. He doesn't have to put too much topspin. On the other hand, his wrist injuries may be related to how he hits the ball, so I don't think he is good to emulate.
     
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  42. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    amateur men don't but the pros are really a lot stronger even then serena or kvitova. they need a lot of spin to keep the ball in. 20 years ago when the best men hit about as hard as serena does now they could swing flatter but now they have better technology, weight training and steroids:) so they need a safety seatbelt (spin) to keep the ball in.

    BTW: even most women use WW forehands now but they don't brush up as much as men.

    the most "manly" FH on tour is certainly stosur:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_mNZGq8TfE&feature=related
     
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  43. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Have you ever seen Sabatini play? If you tried to come to net against her, she could bounce the ball off of your chest with impunity.
     
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  44. TCF

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  45. tricky

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    Female-style stroke.

    1) When you setup the unit turn, the racquet tip is straight up. There may be some layback in the wrist.

    2) Optimal stance is neutral rather than open.

    3) As you take the racquet back, you aim at the ball with the finger tips or palm of your oft-hand.

    4) As you swing forward, pull from the buttcap to the ball.

    5) In terms of muscles, you're swinging with mostly your triceps and upper pecs.

    6) Finish over the shoulder.
     
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  46. ATP100

    ATP100 Professional

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    Easy Answer: They are not that different.

    Look at a 100 random female/male pro's, they are pretty close.

    The biggest difference I have seen/felt, is the weight of shot/ball.
     
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  47. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    WTA has bigger swing on FH and BH - examples: Wozniacki and Danara Safina - they take racket higher and further back than most ATP pros. ATP has more compact FH swing - examples: Federer, Agassi and Ferrer. Henin was an exception as others have noted, she proved you do not have to have a huge FH back swing or loop to generate loads of pace and spin.

    I think WTA players might learn bigger swings to generate pace and spin when they are juniors and need the big swing to hit the ball hard and/or deep. Personally, I think it is a detriment once they are on WTA as they have less time to swing and too much racket head movement is just more things to go wrong.

    Some ATP players do use big swings too - example: Soderling had a huge FH swing.
     
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  48. TCF

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  49. dangalak

    dangalak Banned

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    Wouldn't it make more sense to have a compact swing for a flat ball and a long swing for topspin?

    Eh, he finishes close to his shoulder.

    Mauresmo hitting hard? Always thought she was considered underpowered and her forehand sitting up a lot.
     
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  50. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    1. For the same person, yes. TCB was talking about a male and a female.

    2. Correct. I remember Navratilova commenting about Amelie's weak forehand and blaming her Western grip for it.
     
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