Increase tension on last pull?

Discussion in 'Stringing Techniques / Stringing Machines' started by anthonyjf, Mar 15, 2011.

  1. anthonyjf

    anthonyjf New User

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    Does anyone increase tension on the last pull before tying off? If so, how much do you increase, and are there any pros / cons?
     
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  2. Carolina Racquet

    Carolina Racquet Hall of Fame

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    I used to, but now that I do a better job in cinching my knots, it's not necessary IMO.

    In cinching the knot, the key is pulling the knot AWAY from the frame as you tighten, then before it's fully tightened, pull hard TOWARDS the frame. A little tip I've used is putting my thumb on the tighten string on the outside of the frame where it enters the grommet. I find it helps to hold the string's tension a little better before the final cinch.
     
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  3. rich s

    rich s Hall of Fame

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    It's not necessary to increase the tension on the last string (or the first cross).....

    the last string is short and is inherantly more stiff than any string longer than it, so even if it loses tension during the process of tying the knot it will still have enough stiffness to not matter.... additionally since we normally don't hit the ball on the last mains/crosses or first cross it is not a factor in playability of the stringbed.
     
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  4. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I was taught to increase the tension on the last 2 pulls to compensate for tension loss at tie off.
     
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  5. Technatic

    Technatic Semi-Pro

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    I always raise the tension in 2 or 3 strings before the knot depending of the kind of string.
    The less elasticity in a string the more difficult it is to maintain the tension on your knot.
    My electronic machine has a special "knot button" which raises the set tension by 10%.
     
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  6. anthonyjf

    anthonyjf New User

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    Thanks all for the feedback. Both answers helped me. I should have clarified my initial question: When I said last pull, I meant ANY tie off (mains/starting cross tie/ last cross tie). I have been increasing tension by 1 pound on tie offs because of a youtube video I watched that said tension is lost during tie offs, but since I am confident in my cinching, I think I am going to keep tension the same.
     
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  7. anthonyjf

    anthonyjf New User

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    10%...That seems like a lot. On a 60# string job, that would be a 6# increase on tie offs making tie off setting 66#. I guess your "knot button" knows what it is doing. I couldn't find that button on my crank machine...
     
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  8. PimpMyGame

    PimpMyGame Hall of Fame

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    I tried doing it, any benefits (and I'm not sure there were any) were outweighed by having to remember to decrease the tension again. But maybe that's just me...
     
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  9. dgdawg

    dgdawg Professional

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    I do it. 2 out of the 5 machines I've owned have a knot button.
    I had a 2086 for a while and it bugged me that it didn't have a knot button.
    I, personally, think it makes a difference.
    On my Star 5, hitting the shift button on a pull increases the tension 5lbs.
     
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  10. sstchur

    sstchur Hall of Fame

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    I don't do it. The reason I don't do it though is for consistency. It seems there is a general consensus that whatever methods you use in your stringing, you ought to keep them the same every time.

    If I increase the tension on tie-offs, I will inevitably forgot to reset the tension after I've tied off. I've done this multiple times. I've finally settled on simply not messing with the tension (with the only exception being if I'm doing a different tension for mains and crosses) at all when I string. For me, that helps achieve better consistency b/c it is one less thing I have to remember.
     
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  11. dgdawg

    dgdawg Professional

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    ha ha....roger that.
    When I had my 2680, I would dial in 10% more (less @ higher tension) for the knot pull and sometimes space on moving it back.
    I quite often used M2 for knots. That seemed to be more "idiot proof"
     
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  12. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    I would even forget to change the tension on hybrids half the time so I just leave the tension alone.
     
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  13. jim e

    jim e Hall of Fame

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    I agree with you that you should be consistant on what you do.

    This is a highly controversal issue for sure, has been for a while and still is. Many can argue both ways, best advise is to pick one way and stick with it for consistancy.

    A person from the USRSA emailed me a while back and said it is not necessary to increase according to the USRSA, but then said that is does no harm to increase the tie offs, so it seems like they are staying neutral on this issue, most likely due to the % of tour stringers and slam stringers that increase the tie offs.
    Many tour stringers increase the tie offs.Also many slam stringers increase their tie offs as well.Examples are: Tim Strawn from GSS a member of the Wilson String team increases his tie offs a great deal , was somewhere around 5kg increase . Richard Parnell said a while back that he increases the tie offs as that is why the manuf. place that knot button there. The knot button increases the last pull by 10% once the buttton is hit, and only the pull after that button is pressed, so there is nothing to forget..That is what I do, and have stayed that way as well, for consistancy.I tie a good cinched up knot, but the knot also does loose some with relaxing of the tie off knot. By doing this it also keeps the end main strings straighter due to the offset weave of the adjacent main string.I have increased the tie offs way back in the 1960's when I first started to string, as many players pull on the end main strings and judge your job by this, irregardless of what you explain to them that the end main will be easier to move because of the way the strings are weaved they still pull on those.Many players will not pull on those end mains in front of you , but when they get home or later they inevitably do. By increasing the tie offs this makes the strings tight, no complaints of loose end mains, the end mains stay straighter, and you don't hit with the end mains anyways, so it really does not matter one way or another.

    Like I said it is controversal, no one way is correct at this point in history, so just stay consistant on what you do.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2011
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  14. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    I don't do it. Think of it this way, if you needed to how much would you need to increase the tension for Prince Syn Gut compared to Gamma Infinity or would they be the same. Would you increase the tension more tying off the mains than you would for the crosses because there is less drawback? Would you increase the tension more for flying clamps than for fixed clamps?

    Only those stringers that are thinking too much even think about such a ridiculous notion. LOL Bet that is going to get some hate mail. LOL

    Let me ask the OP a quesiton. If you do it does it make a difference? If you don't know why does it matter? My mistake two questions.

    Irvin
     
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  15. jim e

    jim e Hall of Fame

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    Irvin:
    I'm sure that it makes no difference, but to many clients that pull on that end main it does, even though it is explained to them why the end strings move more, many still pull on the end strings, I even had clients pull on the end mains where I used an ATW where the tie offs were on cross strings! .
    The amount of tension loss from the knot drawback is a small amount , as every knot, no matter how well it is cinched will have some tension loss,irregardless of the type of string, (I was taught the now called parnell knot back in 1968, and that knot cinches up nice, but there is still some loss), also being the end main that no one hits with, so after I hit the knot button that increases the tension by the 10%, when the strings are plucked the end mains sound just as they should. No harm done, clients happy, I keep it consistant ,so all I say is to each their own on this.

    As you well know there is no set ruling on this, very controversal to say the least as each side has reasons for and against, so this is an individule preference at this point in time until a final ruling is definitively made.

    Even the Slam stringers disagree on this issue as some are strong for, as well as some strong against, so do you feel that we are going to make a difference one way or another on these forums or all of us agree on this issue? I would think not. Thats life!


    Since the OP asked for pros and cons:

    My reasons for:
    It keeps the end mains straight do to the off set weave of the adjacent main, (most compelling reason) .

    Many clients pull on the end mains to judge your job on this, even if it is explained to them that is is normal for it to be that way due to the offset weave of the adjacent main.

    Since there is some loss with the knot drawback, the 10% makes up the difference, within reason, if it is slightly over, no harm, as said no one hits with the end mains anyways.

    The manuf. of the high end machines put that knot button there for a reason. (this was from one of R. Parnells statement a few years back on another forum that had this controversy, as he increases his tie offs when he strings) .

    Many tour stringers and Slam stringers increase the tie offs, although this is probably the least reason why, as many do not as well.

    Reasons against:
    You do not hit with the end main, so no reason to increase.

    The end main, or cross tie off are short strings that deflect less than a longer string, so the shorter string should be less tension anyways, (but if this was actually true, then why is proportional stringing not very popular, as this follows that thinking) .

    The USRSA states that it is not necessary to increase the tie off's. (they also said it does no harm if you do)

    People with no knot button forget to set the machine back.

    Decide for yourself, as no correct answer here, as this horse has been beatened to death many times in the past!
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2011
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  16. dgdawg

    dgdawg Professional

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    ....I think this comment speaks for itself....there is absolutely nothing more to be said than that.
    ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    What a joke
    incidentally, question is spelled question
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2011
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  17. mucat

    mucat Hall of Fame

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    Whatever you do, consistency is the key.
     
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  18. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Yes my comment was a joke but I would not increase tension on the tie off strings.

    I have seen the comment about pulling on the outside mains being an excuse for increased tension on the outside mains. Well don't tie off the outside mains by using a box or ATW pattern and you will still have the same problem. Increase tension on the outside mains 25% and you will still have the same problem.

    Some people think knots slip. Well mine don't. If your knots slip maybe you need a better knot or technique. 'YULitle' has a good video on tightening knots.

    Most tennis string stretches and some much more or less than others. When the string stretches as it is tensioned, it will try to recover but it never recovers all the way immediately. If the string is held stretched out sooner or later it will lose its elasticity and never return to its original state. When a string is tied off and the clamps are released you are going to have some drawback. That drawback is mainly caused by the full tension on one side of the clamp and the slack section of string between the knot and the clamp. There is also the issue of the knot and grommets but I am going to assume those are non-issues for right now and concentrate on the slack string.

    Cinching up your knot correctly by pulling the knot down the anchor string and back up to the frame will remove much of the slack. Shortening the distance between the clamp and the tie off will minimize the slack. And clamping your tie off string on a stiffer string bed will keep the clamped string from drawing back as much.

    To cinch up your knot go to 'YULitle's' video.

    Shortening the distance between the clamp and the tie off point sounds like it could be hard to do but it is not. Look at this video at the US Open and how they tie off the mains and crosses. When the stringer completes the 18th cross he skips to the bottom cross and comes back up to string the 19th cross. When the stringer ties off at 12T this makes the string between the clamp and the knot shorter by the distance from bottom to 19th cross grommet. When I string rackets one piece (and there are skipped grommets) I like to use the short side to run the top cross or two. This also makes the distance shorter because the tie off is usually above the skipped grommet(s) holes. Also on my machine I can get the clamps closer to the frame on a cross than I can on the outside mains. Now look at how the stringer ties off the top cross. All the crosses are in before he comes back to tie off that cross. Because all the crosses are in the string bed is stiffer and there is less drawback on the clamp. The mains help to hold the clamp from drawing back on a stiffer string bed. The stringer pulls tension again to release the starting clamp, stretching that string again. All of this helps to reduce the drawback when the clamp is released.

    I could be wrong but it looks like when he ties off the mains he hits the knot button and pulls tension (I assume up 10%,) releases tension, reverts back to the original tension, and pulls again before tying off the knots. I like this better than increasing tension on the last main because you are keeping you tension constant but removing the elasticity from the string before tying it off. For those that use the Wise tension head you do have a knot button. It is called “Pre-Stretch.” You can use this button to pull your tension on the outside mains then turn it off, release tension and tension again.

    The reason I don’t increase tension on the tie off strings is because it promotes inconsistency. How can one determine how much tension will be lost on the tie off string when the elasticity of all strings is different and almost every frame will have a different distance from the clamp to the tie off point? I prefer to eliminate the drawback.

    Irvin
     
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  19. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    The only issue I've ever had with with mains. On a one-piece, I always make sure that I string at least one cross and then tie off on that. Seems like a cross holds tension better due to friction I guess.

    On a hybrid where that is not possible, I don't increase tension either. I agree with the others that practice makes perfect and learning to cinch a knot is key.
     
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  20. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    'Rabbit' one thing you could do is to use the JayCee (JC? not sure) method of tying off the mains. He skips the next to last main on each side with a loop over and then strings the next to last main last. This will usually make the tie off closer to the clamp. Some times the next to last main is the tie off so it will not work on that main. If you have flying clamps it may be a problem too because of the distance between the mains with a skipped main.

    Irvin
     
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  21. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    I think I understand your suggestion. And, I do this when stringing Pure Drives as it's just plain easier with them. But, I've never thought to do it with every frame. Thanks a bunch for the suggestion.
     
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  22. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    No, you should not increase the tension of the last pull.

    Why, would you want to? There is zero benefit to it, when it comes to actual play of the racquet and that is what should matter the most. Increasing the tension of the last main or two does more harm than good.

    The shorter main strings are already stiffer due to being shorter in length, thus they are underpowered. Further increasing the tension of the last two mains just makes the racquet even less powerful on offcenter hits.

    If you increase the tension of the last couple mains you are basically making the sweetspot of the racquet slightly smaller.

    It is reverse progressive stringing, why would anyone want that, commonsense.

    The main reason I hear stringers say they increase tension on the last pull is so a client doesn't feel that string and think it is under tensioned when it is not, to me that is a dumb reason to do it. Ignorance should not beget ignorance.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2011
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  23. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    I always increase the last 2 mains and the last cross by 3-4 lbs. I agree with the person above that many professional stringers use this approach and read Sampras' stringer used it too. The logic is you will lose some tension tieing the knot even with good cinching technique. It works for me and I will continue to do it. By the way, the concept that it reduces the sweetspot is a bit flawed in my view. By pulling at a higher tension and losing some tension during the knot process, you are ending up with approximately the same tension. Also, there isn't a sweetspot anywhere near the last mains or cross. If you hit the ball that far off center, you ain't going to feel anything sweet from any racket or any string job.
     
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  24. wmhipple

    wmhipple New User

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    A fon the few extras lbs on the knot string were how I was taught.... still how I do it.
     
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  25. GlenK

    GlenK Professional

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    Mine too but I've only used it on the last string before the knot, not the last two strings. Interesting all the different takes on this.
     
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  26. Citrus

    Citrus New User

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    Agree - this will change the sweetspot. I usually woulg go for a tightning of 8 lb - then break in the raquet for 2 hrs - then go to court to pound the s..t.
     
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  27. fortun8son

    fortun8son Hall of Fame

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    I usually pull the last mains 10% tighter on polys. I have difficulty getting the slack out of the string outside the frame using only my hands. Too many bad plier days.
    I usually string my crosses higher anyway, so forgetting is not a factor.
    Nylon strings pull up just fine.
     
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  28. Avadia

    Avadia Rookie

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    Resurrecting an older thread here. As a new stringer, I am trying to decide which way I want to go on this. What surprises me reading this thread is that there are die-hard believers in both strategies, but everyone is just throwing out unsupported opinions. No one has made an effort to gather any hard data. How hard is it to take a stringmeter and measure the last pulls vs. the adjacent strings? You could measure this both without an increase in tension on one racquet, and with an increase on another. That should answer the question pretty quickly as to how much tension is lost due to knot drawback on the last pull and whether increasing string tension reduces this loss and makes for a more consistent stringbed.

    Of course, I can't really imagine a loss of tension of five or ten pounds on the last pull really having a detrimental effect on the rest of the stringbed. So I am not sure whether it matters that much in the grand scheme of things anyway. But if you are going for consistency in your work, I suppose it could make a difference. I will do some measurements next time I string up a few racquets.
     
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  29. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Don't increase tension and hand pull tie-off knots to prevent breaking the string. Some people go way overboard by increasing tension then pulling knots with a starting clamp, etc. None of this makes a lick of difference in the final SBS.

    As others have stated, be consistent however you choose to do it.
     
    #29
  30. jim e

    jim e Hall of Fame

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    Wow! This horse was beatened to death so many times, and now it needs to be beatened to death again. Guess it never ends.

    Reminds me of that movie Ground Hog day.Here we go again!
     
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  31. ATP100

    ATP100 Professional

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    I agree with this completely. Any quesiton's?
     
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  32. dannymck

    dannymck New User

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    Perception is everything for the client. They dont know or understand stinging philosophy, or they would be stringing their own racquets. I say make it tight so they dont pull on it and say the stringing job is sloppy.
     
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  33. rjw

    rjw Professional

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    Pick your poison and stick with it....+1

    I haven't been stringing for that long, but I have noticed that different strings react differently.

    example: nrg2 ...I tie my knot and get very little or no drawback when releasing the clamp

    With ogsm, the string seems to be stretchier/mushier, and I get a tad of drawback when releasing the clamp.

    I also started by using pliers to cinch knots, but have since gone to only using my hands.
     
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  34. Pneumated1

    Pneumated1 Professional

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    I was happily weighing my options for an intended purchase of a first stringer around the first of the year, but a friend just dropped an older Klippermate in my lap, so thankfully, my splash into stringing has started sooner than expected.

    Last weekend, with my friend's help, I strung one racquet. This weekend, I strung one racquet on Saturday and one on Sunday. Wow, do I have a lot to learn! I'm watching tutorial after tutorial, especially on how to start mains with only the Klippermate's two floating clamps and tying knots.

    I've learned a lot in a few weeks, but have a ways to go. I'm actually quite satisfied with both stringjobs this weekend, but on my tie-offs, I cannot eliminate the slack string on the outside of the frame. I've tried the two half hitch, the Parnell, and the Wilson pro, and even after pushing the string up the anchor string and arc-ing back, I cannot eliminate the slack on the outside of the frame, on the crossover before tying off. Any suggestions?
     
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  35. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    You're doing fine don't change a thing.

    Irvin
     
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  36. bugeyed

    bugeyed Semi-Pro

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    Seems that some experienced stringers do & some don't increase tension, but most don't feel it makes much difference. Many feel it doesn't hurt, unless you forget to readjust the machine. What I find interesting is those who defend one method as though they have studied the effects & have empirical data, to support their stance, that applies to all stringers. Sorry Lsmkenpo, but the main "valid" reason that people say they do it, is to compensate for the tension they loose when tying off. You have no idea how much tension "they" loose & maybe they do need to compensate! Your dogmatic statements are of not very helpful & should be prefaced by making it clear that it is your opinion & nothing more.

    Cheers,
    kev
     
    #36
  37. rjw

    rjw Professional

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    Can U get a harumph here?
     
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  38. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Actually it should not be very hard to figure out how much you have to pull extra to make up for the drawback you loose. Pull tension and watch it drawback. It is not uncommon to see the string drawback 1/8". Now pull tension on the string again with enough added tension to pull the string 1/4" more. 1/8" to make up for the drawback you had and another 1/8" for the next time. Now hopefully (if your stringer will pull enough tension) the next time it will only drawback 1/8" again. Tie it off and you are all set.

    Of course I would not recommend this procedure.

    Irvin
     
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  39. Pneumated1

    Pneumated1 Professional

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    Well, I thought so, but I just realized that I've strung two racquets with full syn. gut that call for a one piece, and I did a two piece.:confused: There's no need abusing a grommet with a starting knot when not necessary. Oh well, that won't be my last mistake; that's for sure!

    Now, to the one piece vs. two piece stringing. I've looked up several racquets from several different manufacturers, and the only one I've found so far that recommends a two piece is Head. That being the case, I need to learn to do a one piece. I understand the concept of pre-running the string out on my short side to determine my length, but I'm a little unclear as to why some string the first cross or two with the short side, while others string all of the crosses with the long side. Any help here would be appreciated. And thanks in advance!
     
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  40. rjw

    rjw Professional

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    If you decide to look at the Stringway SBS calculator and/or string hybrids or differening main/cross tensions, then you'll have to go 2 piece.

    I don't like or use starting knots, but again, ask 10 people and get 10 different answers.

    warning: rookie stringer here
     
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  41. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    If you use the short side to run the top cross and hold that top cross with a starting clamp and tie it off last your drawback is be almost nothing. Also I think tying off the top and bottom crosses only is a very good idea.

    The reason you have no drawback when you tie off the top and bottom crosses after stringing is done is because the string bed is much stiffer and the mains hold your clamps in place.

    Then there is ATW when you mains end at the throat. Some ATW patterns allow you to tie off the top and bottom crosses only with and you will never have a blocked hole or hard weave.

    But all these methods have their downfall and there are problem anytime you do not string the racket as the manufacturer recommends.

    EDIT: By the way Jason Costello told me Babolat recommends two piece for all their rackets but one piece is ok.

    Irvin
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2011
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  42. Pneumated1

    Pneumated1 Professional

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    Thanks. I hit the BB London, and I drop my crosses 2-4 lbs., so I'll have to continue the two piece on it, I guess. I'm entertaining the idea of a starting clamp to go with the two floating clamps on my Klippermate so that I can tie off that starting cross, instead of using the starting knot. Here's another question, though: once you've started using starting knots, does that create too much crush in the grommet to subsequently start using tie-off knots like the Wilson Pro, Parnell, or two half hitch? Or would the starting knot and tie-off knot even share the same grommet?
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2011
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  43. fortun8son

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    Running the first cross with the short side ensures that both outer mains will be at equal tension. Make sure you increase the ss length to compensate. If you forget, just tie off as usual. No biggie.
    1pc vs 2pc: Per USRSA. When given the choice, pick the one that allows the crosses to be strung top to bottom.
    So, Wilson and Babolat use 2pc(orATW), Prince and Dunlop flip a coin, Head no choice. There are exceptions.
     
    #43
  44. Pneumated1

    Pneumated1 Professional

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    Thank you both for your information. There may be variables that I'm overlooking, but if I'm thinking straight, as long as the loop starts in the head on a 16 Main frame, like my London, L2 and R2 will run back to the head, as well as every subsequent even main; therefore, I could do the one piece. I realize the opposite is true for a beginning loop in the throat on a 16 Main and a loop that starts in the head on an 18 Main frame.

    Here's my question: Say I want to do a one piece but drop my cross tension 2-4lbs (like I do on my London); Could I clamp off the last main on the long side and run my first two crosses at the dropped tension, then clamp those first two crosses? Or would that influence the tension on that last main when I release its clamp? For all I know, that clamp on the last main on the long side may even be in the way. Even if I didn't clamp that last main on the long side, wouldn't I lose a little tenion anyway through friction as I jump over to that first/second cross with a one piece? I could then adjust tension on the rest of the crosses?
     
    #44
  45. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Two tensions two strings. IMO it is always best to do 2 piece if you can.

    Irvin
     
    #45
  46. Pneumated1

    Pneumated1 Professional

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    Okay. Thanks for the suggestion.
     
    #46
  47. Pneumated1

    Pneumated1 Professional

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    #47
  48. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Let me preface this by saying that whenever you use the short side to run one or two top crosses you are putting a lot of stress on one or more of the four corners of your racket. If you use the short side to run the top cross on a 16 main racket that skips 7 and 9 when you run the long side for the second cross you only have a short distance of the frame from 10h to 9h on the long side to support the string when you do your 90 degree turn. If you run the top two crosses you will have that problem on the short side and another problem on the long side. You will have another short distance of the frame between 10h and 11h when you make the 270 degree turn on the long side. My preference is to run only the top cross and not the top two.

    I would run only the top cross for the reason above.

    Now you have an example of when you could use an ATW pattern. What you don't want are any hard weaves or any blocked holes. No matter what anyone recommends I think the 2 piece is best for this racket. It is the only pattern that allows you to string top to bottom and not put excessive stress on a small section of string.

    Because the mains skip 5h, 7h, 9h, 11h, and 12h I would not use an ATW pattern on this racket. But that racket does show you a small section of racket will support the strings. If you want to string one piece string the crosses bottom up.

    Irvin
     
    #48
  49. Pneumated1

    Pneumated1 Professional

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    Thanks. I busted a string in one of my Londons last night, so I'll be having a go at stringing my own racquet for the first time. It has been strung 3 times with a two piece, but I may give the one piece a try this time. But as I mentioned, I only have two Klippermate floating clamps, so I'll have to clamp it to the outside of the frame with a scrap piece of string in order to run that top cross on the short side.
     
    #49
  50. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    I don't think you will have any problem at all doing that. You are also going to notice than when you clamp the top cross outside the frame you will then have something to clamp the second cross to when you pull tension on the second cross. I would leave the clamp on the top cross until you have the whole racket strung. You will have to walk a single clamp down for all your crosses. After tying off the bottom cross go back up and tension the top cross again moving the clamp to the inside. Then you can tie off the top cross.

    EDIT: Christmas is right around the corner. You need to put a starting clamp on your Christmas list. LOL

    Irvin
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2011
    #50

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