internal shoulder rotation on serve

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by taurussable, Sep 25, 2013.

  1. taurussable

    taurussable Professional

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    [​IMG]

    In the internal shoulder rotation demonstration above , the man's upper arm is close to his body.

    [​IMG]

    in serve contact, the arm is above the head.

    How is ISR motion related to the serve considering the position of arm is completely different from the first and second picture?

    Also are there videos explaining ISR in the serve? got a hard time understanding text alone..
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2013
    #1
  2. taurussable

    taurussable Professional

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    found this also
    [​IMG]

    Is above correct demonstration of ISR or below?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2013
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  3. suryanaga

    suryanaga New User

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    They are all examples of internal shoulder rotation. Try the bottom example in post 2 and then raise your arm above your head and perform the same exact rotation. Same movement but your arm is in a different position. The wrist pronation at the point of contact of a serve is a form of internal shoulder rotation.
     
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  4. taurussable

    taurussable Professional

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    Thanks, it make sense now.

    I appears to me that the "high elbow" finish is natural result of ISR: elbow joint fixed and rotate forearm inward/downward--exactly what was demonstrated in both pictures.
     
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  5. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Todd Ellenbecker Video on Shoulder Anatomy, Injury Risk on the Serve

    Videos that discuss the shoulder, impingement and the shoulder orientation to minimize the risk of impingement on the serve.

     
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  6. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Demonstration of Pronation & ISR + ISR in Videos

    1. Pronation. Stand with the arm elbow at your side and with a 90° bend in your elbow. Rotate the forearm back & forth to pronate and supinate the elbow joint - pronation twists the forearm rotating the wrist.

    2. Internal Shoulder Rotation. Raise a straight arm so that it is 90° straight out from the shoulder. Now rotate only the upper arm around its axis. It rotates the entire arm and wrist. When the upper arm axially rotates at the shoulder it is internal shoulder rotation or external shoulder rotation. ISR & ESR can be done no matter where the arm points.

    With the arm still straight out, try doing upper arm ISR and forearm pronation separately.
    Notice that whenever the arm is straight both pronation and internal shoulder rotation have exactly the same effect of rotating the wrist. In tennis discussions of the serve, there is confusion between the terms 'pronation' and 'internal shoulder rotation'.

    Pronation & ISR are independent joint motions that add together to give wrist rotation. On the serve the ISR is what dominantly rotates the wrist accelerating the racket to impact.

    [​IMG]

    Do you see the general line between the two shoulders and the line of the upper arm bone (humerus) in this Venus Williams serve? All pro serves have that high-low shoulder orientation - shoulders tend to be somewhat in line with the upper arm. The Ellenbecker video describes the shoulder and how that shoulder orientation minimizes the risk of impingement.

    The ISR lasts only about 1/4 second around impact in this pro high speed video - look only at the elbow bones - can you see it?

    [​IMG]

    https://vimeo.com/27528701

    Search the many threads here with discussions of ISR and the serve.

    Search Internet- internal shoulder rotation tennis serve pictures
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
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  7. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Videoing Internal Shoulder Rotation on Your Serve

    You are already using ISR in your serve. Take a video of your serve wearing a sleeveless shirt to see the upper arm, place a marker on your upper arm.

    [​IMG]

    https://vimeo.com/21512296

    Very puny ISR.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
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  8. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Excellent example with Venus as she appears to OVER do it slightly, but it
    makes for a good illustration of the idea.
     
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  9. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    There are some variations in the angle - up to a limit.

    You are right about Venus on that particular picture. She does have one of the best WTA serving techniques.

    Check out the angles on many pros and some amateurs by Searching: internal shoulder rotation tennis serve picture
    https://www.google.com/search?q=int...uIGQCg&ved=0CDoQsAQ&biw=1006&bih=606&dpr=1.25

    [​IMG]

    In this frame from a video, Federer seems to have more of an angle with shoulders less vertical. Camera viewing angle might make some difference also. ??

    WORSE CASE WITH SHOULDERS LEVEL _
    [​IMG]

    Compare to this worse case shoulder orientation. If you do ISR with this level shoulder orientation according to Ellenbecker your risk of impingement increases - see his video.

    I see considerable variations of this shoulder orientation on the rec and club tennis courts. Some make me cringe.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
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  10. taurussable

    taurussable Professional

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    when the elbow is straight, I feel it is not as easy to separate the ISR and pronation. awesome explanation btw.
     
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  11. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    But the elbow isn't straight on any stroke.
    Not even on a "straight arm" groundie. There is a little natural relaxed bend.
    And on a serve, where we should be focused, the trophy position has the elbow BENT at 90 degrees or more.
     
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  12. taurussable

    taurussable Professional

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    agree, good servers do. I need fix my trophy.

    what i meant is:
    when my elbow is straight and I rotate my arm on its axis I can't even tell if I am doing forearm pronation or ISR.
     
    #12

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