Ion Tiriac, and his blue clay

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Humblumb, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. Humblumb

    Humblumb New User

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    Here's a vid i ran into about the blue clay courts in madrid. Honestly i think we should give it a good try, in the end, and its sad to say, it only matters what the audience think. If their delighted, players really cant do much to change what is a "potentially" good idea. Cant wait for this season!!!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VliAMoFfTEE
     
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  2. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Why not just make the ball blue???
     
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  3. Humblumb

    Humblumb New User

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    YEAH LETS GIVE ALL THE PLAYERS BLUE BALLS!!!! ... wait what...
     
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  4. 1970CRBase

    1970CRBase Guest

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...id-Open-turns-traditional-red-clay-court.html



    In other words; we will decide what's best for the game and we don't care what you think.
     
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  5. omigod

    omigod Rookie

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    US Open was on green clay for several years.

    Australian Open hardcourt was green and now blue.

    Balls used to be white at Wimbledon.

    Colors get changed from time to time for one reason or another.
     
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  6. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    If it's just one tournament it's fine, but I love red clay, it looks amazing.
     
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  7. Homeboy Hotel

    Homeboy Hotel Hall of Fame

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    Wait, didn't Adidas design Murray's 2012 clothes and probably Nike as well to have a dominant blue outfit? FAIL.
     
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  8. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    Colors get changed essentially for one reason, which is visibility on TV. Nothing worse than yellow ball against red/orange clay, especially on lower resolution TVs. Tiriac didn't become one of the wealthiest men in Europe by being stupid; the blue clay is a great idea.
     
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  9. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    blue clay should play much slower than red clay. if so, it is advantage Nadal.
     
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  10. The Bawss

    The Bawss Banned

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    I like the idea. Sick and tired of sufaces being the same colour. They should mix it up in the hardourt season as well...don't know wth the Basel open was thinking making it yet another blue hardcourt tournament. The AO used to be green...now it's blue. Great. Just like every other hardcourt tournament.
     
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  11. jaggy

    jaggy G.O.A.T.

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    They should have tartan grass to help Murray at Wimby
     
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  12. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Different colour ball on red clay might work just as well as blue clay.
     
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  13. luishcorreia

    luishcorreia Professional

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    I went to see 3 days of the Madrid Open this year. Wonderful tournament. The facilities are top.

    They had a show court with blue clay for the players to train and they would make sure that the players got on the record about the blue clay.

    I have even written a post on my blog (in portuguese but you can see the photos).

    http://online-tennis.blogspot.com/2011/05/mr.html

    I really think it's a cool change. We should not be afraid of making changes. Several things where unthinkable some years ago and now are just common, i.e. the optic yellow ball.
     
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  14. Devilito

    Devilito Hall of Fame

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    no it won't because it's not just about the ball contrast but staring at an almost completely red TV for hours is not comfortable. A blue court is far more pleasing to the eye. So you get both benefits of ball contrast plus being easier on the eyes. It's far superior and Tiriac is right about the fact that tennis has been around for 100 years and will be around long after him, Federer and Nadal are dead. Tennis in its current form survives because of one reason only. TV money. If they don't like it they can play like the rest of us for a $50 gift certificate and a can of new balls. Nadal, while being one of the best tennis players of all time, is also a whiner. We have already established that fact and shouldn’t listen to him about what’s best for the sport of tennis.
     
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  15. El Diablo

    El Diablo Hall of Fame

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    Good point. Blue and green have been demonstrated to induce relaxation in viewers, red-yellow-orange has been shown to evoke an escape response.
     
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  16. marcub

    marcub Banned

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    The resistance to change people have on display (not just here) is mind boggling.

    Blue simply makes sense, it's easier on the eye, yo can see the ball better, end of story.
     
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  17. marcub

    marcub Banned

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    I allowed myself to complete the sentence.
    Ralph would have countless more fans if it weren't for his attitude.
     
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  18. tusharlovesrafa

    tusharlovesrafa Hall of Fame

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    will rafa be known as "king of blue clay" now??
     
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  19. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    was he only known as the king of red clay before? i figured it was just all clay.
     
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  20. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Nadal doesn't like blue clay so if he end up losing he'll have an excuse for not playing his best.
     
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  21. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    True. I am all for players and their rights but in this case the decision should not be up to the players since the tv audience helps to drive the sport. Tennis players should not be making corporate decisions. They did not go to business school or don't have experience with running mega corporations. It is really not their call in this case imo. Just shut up and play on the blue clay.
     
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  22. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    It might be a good idea but the idea of red clay as the historically unifying aesthetic of the Spring clay court season is an extremely powerful part of tennis mythology, whereas blue clay has the feel of a marketing gimmick designed to say "Madrid is different".
     
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  23. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    ??? You mean they worry about the clothing in relation to court colour? If that's the case I recall Federer wearing red at this year's French Open.
     
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  24. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    Yeah man, shut and up and do as the man says. Who gives a flying f**k about tradition? I bet that if WB got rid of their white outfits and green grass, most of you wouldn't bat an eyelid, right?

    And regarding Nadal's statements, has anyone actually thought WHY he says this? Blue clay plays THE SAME as red clay as far as we know so what's Nadal angle on this one? It's simple, the guy cares about the tradition of claycourt tennis, where red clay meets sun, the very definition of spring tennis. By changing the colour of clay(on the few surfaces out there that isn't a greenish blue or a blue'ish green), you are basically ******* on 100+ years of tradition in favor of a supposed raise in tv ratings.

    Most people who agree with this change are people that don't like CC tennis in the first place so they're ok with *******izing the surface. I'd like to see their reaction when WB grass becomes pink.

    I can't wait till tennis brings on cheerleaders between games. Hey, better ratings, amirite?

    Hopefully this is just a gimmick for the Madrid tournament.
     
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  25. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    I think I'd rather listen to the best CC player in tennis history about changes made to CC tennis than to some anonymous people on the internet.

    And I'd wager Nadal is not alone in this one. I'd bet you most guys who prefer playing on clay don't like this change. However guys that don't really like clay wouldn't really give a crap.
     
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  26. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    [​IMG]
     
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  27. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    They should also spray paint all the bald patches at Wimbledon at the beginning of the second week in fluoro green and the surrounding grass to match.
     
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  28. marcub

    marcub Banned

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    :) I mean come on. Nice poetry though :)

    If it was for tradition we'd still be playing with wooden racquets.

    My guess is he does it cause he's a routine freak - and this is no Ralph-bashing attempt. If he wins Madrid next year watch his level of disconfort go down.

    Tradition is ok, but taken to the limit it turns into backwardness.
     
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  29. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    If tennis let the players make decisions, there would be no tiebreak.
    Or hardcourts used in majors. Majority of players made a big stink(including some legends of the game, Laver wasn't keen on tiebreak sets being used) when both were introduced, many citing 'traditions' of the game. And there was a fair bit of America bashing as well, since an American invented the tiebreak & the USO was the first major to go to hardcourt(man were the Europeans annoyed, some even threatened boycott!) The tennisworld sure got used to both, its now sort of funny how fans today harp on 'all surface ability' & put down the time when only clay & grass were surfaces used in majors, esp since 30 some years ago a lot of fans thought hardcourts were just a *******ization of tennis, & the USO only went that way to aid its players.

    Its funny how similar players throughout history are, they all pretty much hate any change & ***** & whine loudly the minute there is any minor change in the game(I think blue clay is pretty minor compared to tiebreaks & hardcourts, no?)

    ha I remember the big stink Agassi made at 1994 New Haven(before your time I guess, you're only like 25 right?) when music was played on changeovers.
    But since you're young I guess music on changeovers has been the norm for your tennis watching lifetime. Ditto hardcourts & tiebreaks. And graphite racquets. And the yellow tennis ball.
    I wonder how many posters here didn't even follow tennis before the replay system(2006 USO was the first major with it)
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2011
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  30. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    The point is that things change in tennis as in life. This is not the first change that has been made in the interest of economics or business. It is not up to the players in this case to make these decisions.

    I personally do not see what the big issue is. They are trying one tournament out with blue clay. Who cares. If people want to change the Wimbledon dress code in the future, that is ok too. What is the big deal?

    The only thing that is constant is change.
     
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  31. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    What Nadal or any other player likes or does not like in this case is irrelevant. He is a tennis player not a business icon. He can have an opinion sure, but that does not mean he has a right to dictate to an owner of a tournament on what business decisions to make.
     
    #31
  32. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    Maybe it's my european background but I feel that certain sports shouldn't be played on cement but on natural surfaces. I am ok with HC but I do feel concern when the original surfaces of this sport(which are easier on the body) are being marginalized more and more. In that respect, I can't say HC has made tennis better.

    I get what you're saying, not all changes are bad but this is a purely aesthetic one(read:superficial) and it looks like s**t while changing the look of a entire season in tennis. It's one thing to implement tiebreaks(that actually make sense as you can't go on forever) but this totally changes the face of a entire season of tennis, if this blue clay will spead to other clay tourneys. We have more blue in a season that begins with blue and ends with greenish blue or grey. Let's preserve some of the goddam variety. The red clay and green grass actually break up the freaking monotony on a tour that seems to be made up of greenish blue or blue'ish green(combined with some weird pink'ish hues like some tourneys have)



    How is it a minor change?

    It changes the face of a entire season in tennis if all clay courts will implement it. I'll repeat what I said before, people that agree with this abomination are people that don't give a s**t about CC tennis in the first place. This is akin to WB changing the color of their grass. When Fed will play on fuschia grass, I'd like to see their input.

    Yeah, it's the norm and I still find it pretty dumb even though I should have gotten used to it by now.
     
    #32
  33. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    Some things shouldn't change, they lose their value when they do, that's the whole point of certain traditions.

    Ex:

    Let's have 8 slams then, what's the big deal? More big tourneys, more revenue, players get to amp up their slam count, more potential GOAT candidates,everything better amirite?
     
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  34. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    I'll say what I said when this was originally brought up a few years ago - as long as it plays the same, I don't see what the big deal is. At the end of the day, it's just a color. Not to go to off topic or make this political when it shouldn't be, but the people saying it shouldn't change or it's tradition and could lead to Wimbledon being played on ice or ridiculousness like that, is kinda like people who oppose gay marriage saying it's a slippery slope to people marrying horses. That argument is ridiculous, and so is the one against blue clay.

    And are people just forgetting about the green clay events held here in the US, like Charleston? I think Houston used to be held on green clay as well. The US Open used to be on GREEN CLAY! I guess the USO wasn't a real slam until it went to HC, since any color other than red isn't traditional. :roll:

    Like I said, it's just a color. Get over it and play.

    For the record, I don't have anything against red clay. Just people (namelessone) should tone it down when romanticizing the 'tradition' of red clay and realize that a freaking slam used to be played on green clay.
     
    #34
  35. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    Which is not real clay(plays faster for one and is more hard packed), the red one made of crushed brick, the one against the standard of clay excellence is measured. Who do you value more, a guy that won on the clay of RG,MC,Rome,Hamburg,Stuttgart,Bastaad,Acapulco,Costa do Suipe and so on or the guys/gals winning on the few har tru tournaments that exist in North America.

    Green clay just like yellow,maroon and blue clay is a gimmick. There is only one widely respected clay surface and guess which one it is. Even the US, where har tru is more common has ditched green clay tournies for the most part. And why did USO stay har tru just for 3 years I wonder?

    I wonder why no European major tourneys in history picked up green clay(to my knowledge) since it's so awesome. Tiriac is bringing change to a european tourney and if this abberation takes hold in other tourneys as well(we can see the ball better, amirite?), the whole face of spring claycourt season will change to please tv executives. F**k tradition.

    As I said, picture WB(since I'm willing to bet that more people care about grass than clay here since they associate clay with Nadal) playing on anything but green grass. Just picture it and then get back to me.

    It beats me how anyone can say that this:

    [​IMG]

    or this

    [​IMG]

    deserves to replace this

    [​IMG]

    Madrid and its ugly location deserve blue clay but putting any other shade of clay in RG, MC, Estoril and other such venues would ruin their charm.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2011
    #35
  36. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    No one is saying that blue clay should replace red clay everywhere, but for one event what's the big freaking deal? Cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it. And like others have said, if the viewers like it, regardless of what the players like, you will see more tourneys go to it. If not, then just like Round Robin at regular events a few years ago, people will cry out and get rid of it.

    Again, NO ONE is saying let's make all of the clay events blue now, and that slippery slope logic is just what I speak of when I say people should loosen up and stop clinging so tightly to tradition. Things change. Am I saying that RG and other events should eventually go blue? No. But if it happens over time, so be it. For now, let Madrid do their thing and if it doesn't work and people don't like it, then they will go back to red or other tourneys won't follow and Madrid will be left as 'that blue clay tourney'. Stop it with the needless romanticizing about red clay. Next we'll hear about how red clay was where all the great battles of WW II were fought...:roll:
     
    #36
  37. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    ^^That's a scary thought man. I get where you're coming from but it would be sickening to make Roland Garros blue clay. Im ok with it just being Madrid.
     
    #37
  38. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    FWIW I don't think RG will ever go to blue clay, but if you go back to the 70s I'm sure people wouldn't think the USO and AO would both be on blue HC. Tradition is one thing, but time changes things. We've already seen replay, equal prize money, blue HCs, Round Robin (which didn't work) as things over the past decade to come in as new and one way or another change the game. Even replay, which most people love now, was famously argued against by the likes of Fed and Mary Carillo.

    Getting back to blue clay, I don't see the need for teeing off on this and talking about how it could change the tradition or what not. Ultimately it's going to come down to how the fans receive it. If the fans care that much about the 'beauty' of red clay and don't like it, they won't watch and won't show at the tourney. But if it's successful and people like it, don't be surprised if other lower events follow suit.

    Ultimately, at the end of the day, it's all about $$$. The changes I mentioned earlier were mainly aimed at bringing in more money, and if this one brings in more money for the tourney in Madrid, than others will follow suit. Tradition will have no say in it, period. Let's use a hypothetical. If Wimby organizers for some strange reason felt they could bring in $1 billion more dollars by changing the grass to pink, you think they wouldn't do it? Or would they hold off on it due to tradition? Honestly, answer that and you got the answer to why Madrid's going blue.

    In short: **** tradition. Get money. :)
     
    #38
  39. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    So how do we know if people like it? We look at the ratings,right? People will turn up to see Fed,Djoko,Nadal,Murray on anything(even wood probably) and the crooks in the ATP will use these ratings as an excuse to change the game further cause hey, the blue surface got great ratings, no?

    To implement this in a big tournament(masters event) directly is wrong but hey, the crook Tiriac has connections.


    Yeah, tradition doesn't matter. I wonder why WB is the greatest tournament ever, despite being on a surface that's almost extinct(thanks to those geniuses running the ATP). Oh wait, it's that tradition thing, isn't it?


    If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    Some things don't need to change. Tiriac wants to use this gimmick to give Madrid an identity cause it's one of the most bland MS out there along with Shanghai IMO. And he's ******* all over european red clay tradition to do it with the excuse of seeing the ball better. I wonder how the hell I watched clay tennis on old ass tv's in my teens. I must've had supervision or something.

    There's no romanticizing here.

    Spring season in tennis for quite some time now has been characterized by RED CLAYCOURT tennis, that's a FACT. That should never change because it doesn't need changing. Since you are american(I think) it's probably hard for you to understand the appeal of spring CC tennis to many europeans.

    If RG ever goes blue/pink/whatever, I'll stop watching tennis. Same for WB going for anything other than green. All of you that agree, congratulations on *******izing the sport. I can't wait for pink grass with cheerleaders between games.
     
    #39
  40. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    Read post #38 and respond with your head and not your heart. No one is saying that red clay will go forever, but the slippery slope argument as to why Madrid shouldn't go for blue clay is a dumb one for the reason I mentioned in my original post. If you want to keep your fingers in your ears and yell "TRADITION TRADITION TRADITION! LA LA LA!" then I'm wasting my time here. But if you actually have a constructive reason as to why Madrid going to blue clay will lead to the end of clay tennis as we know it, then please, go ahead.

    You said it in your post. Tiriac wants to create buzz around Madrid and give it it's own identity. Anyways, I read that it costs double for the blue clay. If that's the case, I doubt that other tourneys will be running to do this unless the profits far exceed the costs, which make the slippery slope of every tourney going to blue clay even less likely.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2011
    #40
  41. marcub

    marcub Banned

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    There there. That seems to be the real issue. You should have said it right off the bat :)

    What's the point of beating around the bush with tradition.
     
    #41
  42. TTMR

    TTMR Hall of Fame

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    The blue clay at Madrid is crushed brick just like regular red clay. Any differences players experience during play will be psychological. "Har-Tru" on the other hand, is a different clay surface altogether, and as far as I know, not used outside of North America.
     
    #42
  43. Fate Archer

    Fate Archer Hall of Fame

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    I suspect this is one thing that might be bothering Nadal too... will be interesting to see how that will affect his play next year.
     
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  44. CMM

    CMM Legend

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    #44
  45. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    All that is happening for now is that one tournament is going with blue clay. It is not the end of the world as we know it. For me I could not care less what color clay the players play on. If a tournament director feels he/she wants to make a change for business reasons he/she is entitled to do so imo.

    Just because something is a tradition does not mean it is not subject to change. The color of clay on a tennis court is not a tradition in the sense that a turkey dinner is at Thanksgiving for example. Tennis is a business as well as entertainment and things change in the tennis world just as they do in the real world, tradition or no tradition. Things have to keep moving forward.

    Why don't you put away your cell phones or cordless phones and use a rotary dial phone? It used to be the traditional phone you know! :wink:
     
    #45
  46. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    #46
  47. OddJack

    OddJack Legend

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    Yeah, the guy really looks like a crook.

    He is just drawing attention to himself. He feels the need to be innovative, and the only thing that he can actually change is what? Color, LOL

    I am guessing blue clay is not going to be adopted at any other court.

    Seriously, has anyone had problem seeing the yellow ball on red clay? on Tv? Not me.
     
    #47
  48. TTMR

    TTMR Hall of Fame

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    It really depends on the camera, resolution and image quality. When it appears as a dark red, it isn't so bad. But that bright orange you get at certain venues/in certain weather/on certain cameras, is brutal.

    Soft colours like blue do make it easier to watch over several hours. Whether it is worth the cost to 'tradition', I don't know. I think it looks kind of cool, but it needs to be equally offset by a colour change away from blue on hard courts (though to softer colours like dark green, purple, brown or maroon).
     
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  49. OddJack

    OddJack Legend

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    I dont know what resolution they use in Europe. Here in states I never had problems watching the matches on clay.

    Only on some youtube vids and some low quality streams sometimes I cant see the ball, but that is not limited to clay, it same on all surfaces.
     
    #49
  50. Subventricular Zone

    Subventricular Zone Rookie

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    Money talks loud and clear indeed.
     
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