Is a 4.5 player from So. California stronger.....

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by bngnhal, Jun 28, 2010.

  1. bngnhal

    bngnhal New User

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    than a 4.5 player from the carolinas.........I have played in numerous national usta events and i think so cal 4.5 players are stronger than anywhere else in the u.s...........anybody think differently.
     
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  2. polski

    polski Semi-Pro

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    There are sandbaggers everywhere. I don't know who has the best sandbaggers. I would place my money on California just due to numbers.

    I do know one senior 4.5 guy that moved to Charlotte from So Cal. He got bumped down after one season of league play here and is now a 4.0.
     
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  3. Delano

    Delano Rookie

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    Hard to say. I haven't played much outside norcal, so I don't have any first hand experience. But I have heard that 4.5 can (ironically) be a little weaker in tennis rich areas because top players can join viable 5.0, 5,5, and Open leagues/tournaments, while top players in less populated areas tend to play 4.5, since that's the highest division they can play locally (ie., no 5.0+ available). As a result, players that would probably just be 5.0 or higher in socal, norcal, etc... are 4.5 players instead.
     
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  4. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    I've played 4.5s from California to South Carolina and barring the off sand bagger, level is pretty even.
     
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  5. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    A buddy of mine who is a 5.5 and regularly plays with ATP players in doubles tourneys in SCal sandbagged the 4.5s and got to Nationals. I was really surprised he did that, but everyone has their hands in the sand, bagging them up, obliterating the NTRP community.
     
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  6. goober

    goober Legend

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    Well you say you went to national events.

    2009 4.5 men from socal did not even advance out of their subflight at Nationals going 1-2.
     
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  7. tennismonkey

    tennismonkey Semi-Pro

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    have played 4.5's from california, hawaii and pennsylvania. levels are mostly even. #1 single players on leagues though are usually sandbaggers who could be competitive at the next higher level.
     
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  8. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    Well........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................that...................................................................................................................................................................................really.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................depends..........................................................................................................................................................................................................................
     
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  9. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    If that were true, then SoCal would win Nationals every year at all levels of NTRP play (due to the ripple effect). That is obviously not the case, as evidenced that the mid-atlantic region has been the most successful section at Nationals in 2008/2009 at least.
     
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  10. SlapShot

    SlapShot Hall of Fame

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    What does that say about Northern, being that they won the 4.5 title last year? ;)
     
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  11. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    So he 'got' to Nationals but didn't win? Out-sandbagged? LOL. Great guy. Credit to our sport. Does he steal things from old ladies purses when they aren't looking? :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2010
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  12. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Players from huge tennis communities can vary their levels more than players from tiny tennis comunities.
    Since there might be 1,000 4.5's from SoCal, the variance is huge.
    There might be ONE 4.5 living in Samoa, so his level is considered benchmark there.
     
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  13. Mike2228

    Mike2228 Rookie

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    What exactly is a sandbagger?
     
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  14. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    He is a good guy.

    Its all about the paperweights. And the booty.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2010
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  15. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    Adapted from the web site about.com

    Gangs and street toughs of the 19th century used sand bags as a weapon of choice. Take a sock or small bag, fill it with sand, wrap it tightly, and wail away on someone (well, don't actually wail away on someone, but imagine that you are) and you'll see how effective a weapon a small innocent sand bag can be.

    This definition of sandbagger - a person who uses a sand bag as a weapon - can still be found in many dictionaries; it's the first definition for the word in most older dictionaries.

    According to the website Word-Detective.com, that intermediary step was poker.

    Say you're in a poker match and you're dealt a fantastic hand. If you place a huge bet right off the bat, you might scare most of your poker mates into folding. Instead, you might choose to bet small amounts, hoping to keep your opponents in the match, increasing the pot, up until the moment you show your cards.

    As Word-Detective.com puts it, the poker meaning "... described a player who held off raising the stakes in order to lull the other players into a false sense of security. The poker sandbagger would pounce late in the game, clobbering the other players with his good hand."

    The poker player, in other words, misled his opponents about how good his hand was ... until it was time to whip out the "sand bag" and beat those same opponents with it.

    And that's how "sandbagger" came to have its tennis meaning. Essentially a player that has misrepresented his ability to beat up on unsuspecting foes ... in the case of USTA tennis the player started with a low self rate
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2010
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  16. AndrewD

    AndrewD Legend

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    No, he isn't; he's a cheat.
     
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  17. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    He's got nice legs, does that matter?

    Look, most 4.5 #1 SoCa singles guys can play 5.0+ but instead will sandbag for a year.

    It just how it is there.

    Its unfair but unless usta officials start monitoring matches then oh well there's nada to do.
     
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  18. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    Is he in the Los Angeles area?
     
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  19. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    We can agree to disagree.

    Thanks. Never knew the history.

    Sad attitude. I thought better of you.
     
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  20. anantak2k

    anantak2k Semi-Pro

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    I actually think this is true. The ratings seem to vary from place to place. When I play against 4.5s from CA or FL, they seem to much better than 4.5s from other states.

    I feel like this varies even within states itself. Maybe it's just me. I don't know.
     
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  21. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Truth hurts, or?

    How many teams at the 4.5 level in SoCal or FL don't have at least 1 strong sandbagger that could easily be playing 5.0?

    It happens at every level.

    :)
     
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  22. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    If you can sandbag SoCal 4.5 and consistently win, you are = less than .005% of TTW. Not sure though.
     
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  23. JT_2eighty

    JT_2eighty Hall of Fame

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    Not sure if this is a loaded question intended to begin the ol' sandbag debate... but either way it worked!

    In theory, the 4.5 should be in similar play levels all over the country, so if So. Cal has "stronger" 4.5s than everywhere else, then by definition, So. Cal would have more sandbaggers than everywhere else, but if So. Cal isn't winning Nationals, then look to who is for your sandbaggers.

    In general, most good court 1 players can also be playing at the higher level. It is what it is, when you have a system designed to make even play levels, there will always be gray areas that get smudged a bit too far in either direction.
     
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  24. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    Even in the same local area. I played one 4.5 guy and he beat me like 0 and 1, and I played another one and he beat me like 2 and 4. Clearly the first guy is a stronger 4.5.
     
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  25. Kick_It

    Kick_It Semi-Pro

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    It is probably about the same no matter where you go - at either extreme low end or high end of range. That's what playoffs and ratings adjustments do.

    What I've observed is in places like Atlanta, Southern California and/or Florida is there is a larger tennis playing population than other areas.

    Read from that what you will. I'll interpret it as SoCal has more high-end 4.5s and more low-end 4.5s than say Montana.

    A high end 4.5 from SoCal probably has easier access to more higher level hitting partners than someone in Montana.

    It doesn't mean that any given 4.5 from SoCal will beat any given 4.5 from Montana on any given day. The player from Montana could be the high end of the range, and the one from SoCal could be the low end of the range.

    The same likely applies to other levels also,
    K_I
     
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  26. Falloutjr

    Falloutjr Banned

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    A 4.5 is a 4.5 no matter where you go. Generally same skillset and aptitude. The problem is that some areas have more leagues, so someone that's a low 5.0 could play on a 4.5 team in an area that doesn't have a 5.0 team, and because USTA rankings are relative, an area with a low population of tennis players would have more incorrectly rated players.
     
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  27. bngnhal

    bngnhal New User

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    I knew when i started this blog that it was going to be controversial, but i like to stir the pot for fun. Not to go off in a different direction, but where i live in so. cal this last usta season alot of players that were 4.0 got bumped to 4.5 because there were too many 4.0 players in so cal. now that to me is wrong. and i also know a few 4.5 sandbaggers that got bumped up to 5.0 just recently as well, so boo hoo to them. so, i guess it really just matters to how deep of a pool of 4.5 players there are to choose from that determines where the strongest 4.5 players are located. but i still am not certain as to where the best 4.5 players are????????
     
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  28. Falloutjr

    Falloutjr Banned

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    The best 4.5 players are where there are no 5.0 teams cuz all the 5.0s play 4.5 :D
     
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  29. Z-Man

    Z-Man Professional

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    It's true--in places where there is no 5.0 league, 4.5 really means 4.5 and everything above--including former DI college players and minor league pros.

    That said, among people who play league tennis and really know what their rating is, levels are pretty even across the country. The big differences are among people who really have no clue. Go to any tennis resort in the country, and you'll find loads of 4.0s who think they're 4.5s. Unless you play tournaments or league tennis, you really have no idea.
     
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  30. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    I have no idea what you are babbling about with 'truth'?

    Sounds like you're justifying your buddy's bad behavior with the 'everyone is doing it'. Which is sad.

    Neither of us - and no one on this board - knows if 5, 10, 25, 50, or 99% of teams have a sandbagger on their team.

    PS - and I don't play USTA leagues because of clowns like your buddy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2010
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  31. SlapShot

    SlapShot Hall of Fame

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    Just my .02 with regard to ratings, but the SoCal vs. the world thing is overblown.

    You have more tennis players, so therefore you have more depth at every level. Apart from the deliberate ratings manipulation, which does exist, you simply have more top-level players in more heavily tennis-oriented communities, and the additional competition seems to keep some very good players a level down.

    in a place like Northern, we have a LOT of 4.0 players that play up to 4.5 (I'm guilty of that) simply due to the lack of competition at the top level of 4.0, and as such, our 4.5 as a whole would be a diluted pool compared to Cali/Texas/Florida where you simply have more players at all levels.
     
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  32. AlpineCadet

    AlpineCadet Hall of Fame

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    There's sandbagging everywhere! Before I play pickup games at the Backyard Tennis Academy, I always ask what everyone's level is before we start warming up. If they lie and end up trying to sandbag us, I just make really bad line calls. It's only fair, and it evens out the score. And I never get bumped up, so playing in our Sectionals is a breeze.
     
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  33. arthurchen

    arthurchen New User

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    I was the captain of the 4.5 mens team from so cal that went to nationals in 2008. The difference with socal is the depth, we were lucky to get to nationals that year. 5 or 6 other teams from socal could have done well at nationals that year. The difference talking to some of the other captains at nationals was some of the smaller districts recruited the best players for a super team that easily won their districts and sectionals. The level at nationals was fairly equal in doubles, the difference was the winning teams had some great ex college players that were really 5.0's.
     
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  34. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    In general, the average depth (i.e. number) of 4.5 players in SoCal is probably greater than many other areas.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2010
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  35. deluxe

    deluxe Semi-Pro

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    I have it on good authority that a 4.0-4.5 level player from socal got to the 2nd round of the US Open this year. Lost to Blake though.
     
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  36. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    SoCal and SoFla have a long tradition of great junior and recreational tennis, probably because of the abundance of year round, public tennis courts available to everyone. As a result, it comes as no surprise that there are an abundance of excellent recreational tennis players in these regions.

    Having said that, what I don't understand is the mindset of one who played D1 college tennis at a ranked school even wanting to play 4.5 or even 5.0. Where's the satisfaction in beating someone you already know you can beat.

    The only explanation I can think of is that, these guys want to play, but, with all of the excellent players around, there still aren't enough to fill out the rosters of a decent 5.0 or 5.5 league.
     
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